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TriumphToo said:
Who in their right mind accepts this and pays a premium for it? We have, but there are only so many of us...
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Us, the current crazy, first adopter owners that fell in love with the car. Total valid point for prospective buyers on the fence, and with EV demand down currently, all the minor issues and software not being cutting edge aren't helping with sales conversions.

Marketing to build the brand and advertise as everyone is suggesting is a tricky spend in times like these because it is a major line item on budgets that aren't justified by the actual sales number. I've built a number of startups, and this is a constant battle when the company is not cash flow positive. Much easier for outsiders to say what the company should be doing than for the insiders to execute against a budget framework.
 
The fob works for me 100% of the time. To open the trunk, click and hold. No need to go near the car's door.

A lot of other small things about the car do need some handwaving to make go away. IMO typical first-iteration product issues.
 
TriumphToo said:
This is a niche car in a niche market, at a high price point, only for those in the know given the lack of mass advertising and select number of showrooms in premium malls. If you know, you know, and you've bought one. Otherwise, those looking and comparing to alternatives read this forum, discover us all explaining away the any idiosyncrasies, issues and foibles that are typically table stakes for mass-market ICEs and majority of EVs, leaving them to wonder if its worth it.

As an example, given the time of year, the majority of the current threads are discussing and explaining why this is not a good car for the winter (only 19s have all season tires, frunk freezes shut, charging complications, app remote limited in climate control functionality, door handles freeze shut, LIDAR etc. blocked). Who in their right mind accepts this and pays a premium for it? We have, but there are only so many of us...
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Good points. And I think this is where a lot of us go off the rails a bit in the discussion about what constitutes "success" for Lucid.

Like you said, it's a niche car in a niche market. And it will likely stay that way, albeit to a lesser extent, with Gravity launching.

That's okay. No one says Rolls Royce or Bently sells cars that are too expensive. No one expects Bently to outsell Toyota, either.

I think too many of us are thinking Lucid should be putting up Toyota numbers. Or even Tesla numbers. That's simply not going to happen.

Even Rivian is playing in a much larger US market, with two vehicles. It would be astonishing if Lucid came anywhere near selling as many cars as they are.

Plenty of niche companies do just fine living in their niche. For their customers, the "expensive" is part of the appeal.

I like to keep in mind that within this niche Lucid is actually performing quite well. When three years in you are keeping pace with the likes of Mercedes and BMW in the luxury sedan EV space, you're not exactly a flop. The only problem is that Lucid only sells luxury sedan EVs. That won't be the case forever. But it is the reality for now.

The only question is whether Lucid knows it's doing about as much sales as they can expect, and are ready to weather that for another year until Gravity. And even then be prepared to maybe only double or triple their meager sales until mid-size ships a few years after that.

My guess is they (and the PIF) are well aware of this reality.
 
joec said:
That's okay. No one says Rolls Royce or Bently sells cars that are too expensive. No one expects Bently to outsell Toyota, either.
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Off topic, but I’m pretty sure that’s the first time you’ve ever misspelled something 🤣

And for sedans, Lucid is actually doing very good. They are behind the model s and taycan, but ahead of the EQS and i7. This may also be because the EQS and i7 are more expensive though, while the s and taycan are closer to the Lucid's price. The Gravity will bring more people to the Air AND boost Lucid's total production/deliveries. I can't wait and hope it is ahead of schedule.
 
AirDoll said:
I think you mean the Gravity will bring more people to Lucid.
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Yes, which will in turn bring more people to the Air. The gravity will introduce the brand to others as it will be more popular(more visibility), people now know what the Air is, and if they wanted a sedan but didnt hear about Lucid, they would buy it(believe me, this HAS happened in my area after they found out about lucid). For example, I believe the Model 3/Y launch made more people aware about tesla, and high end customers who heard about Tesla tended to buy the Model X/S more despite learning about the company from the 3/Y.
 
joec said:
Good points. And I think this is where a lot of us go off the rails a bit in the discussion about what constitutes "success" for Lucid.
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Early on, in the person of Peter Rawlinson, Lucid defined its success as using an initial premium product to generate high margins that could then be used to bring less-expensive, high efficiency products to a larger market for the good of people and planet. At the same time, he set aim at large German luxury sedans by defining them as the brand's chief competition in what seemed to be an effort to discourage comparisons with Tesla.

There were conflicts inherent in this dual vision. Using a premium product to generate margins for the real game -- moving into the mass market -- was exactly the path Tesla had earlier taken and was one that would ring familiar bells with EV fans, thus reinforcing comparisons to Tesla. Yet, the also-stated aim to brand Lucid a competitor to luxury German brands created confusion. What was the brand identity to be in the minds of buyers? Were they to think of Lucid as the EV alternative to their S Class and 7 Series cars, or were they biding their time for Lucid to be the alternative to their Model 3s and Ys?

This question has real implications. If becoming a lasting competitor to premium German brands is the long game, the Air will remain the platform that receives the newest technology first, that drives the visual identity of the rest of the product line, and that nurses the caché of what it means to own a Mercedes or BMW.

If moving down into the mass market as Tesla has done is the long game for Lucid, people will take note of what the Model S and the Model X have become: engineering afterthoughts that are periodically throwing new components and minor updates into aging platforms. Will they conclude this is the fate of the Air? There are already the first signs of this, with the Gravity being the platform that introduces UX 3.0, that is first to use the next-generation motors, that brings heat pumps to the cars, that brings air suspensions (not necessarily an improvement), that finally might introduce the long-forgotten "executive" rear seating that was prominent in early Air promotions.

In fact, I wonder if Lucid's own publicizing of the great new features and advances of the Gravity is not one of the brakes on Air sales. Could the whole "we've taken everything we learned from the Air to build an even better SUV" be backfiring?

I love the brand. But even I'm not sure what it is aiming to be . . . or will be.
 
hmp10 said:
Early on, in the person of Peter Rawlinson, Lucid defined its success as using an initial premium product to generate high margins that could then be used to bring less-expensive, high efficiency products to a larger market for the good of people and planet. At the same time, he set aim at large German luxury sedans by defining them as the brand's chief competition in what seemed to be an effort to discourage comparisons with Tesla.

There were conflicts inherent in this dual vision. Using a premium product to generate margins for the real game -- moving into the mass market -- was exactly the path Tesla had earlier taken and was one that would ring familiar bells with EV fans, thus reinforcing comparisons to Tesla. Yet, the also-stated aim to brand Lucid a competitor to luxury German brands created confusion. What was the brand identity to be in the minds of buyers? Were they to think of Lucid as the EV alternative to their S Class and 7 Series cars, or were they biding their time for Lucid to be the alternative to their Model 3s and Ys?

This question has real implications. If becoming a lasting competitor to premium German brands is the long game, the Air will remain the platform that receives the newest technology first, that drives the visual identity of the rest of the product line, and that nurses the caché of what it means to own a Mercedes or BMW.

If moving down into the mass market as Tesla has done is the long game for Lucid, people will take note of what the Model S and the Model X have become: engineering afterthoughts that are periodically throwing new components and minor updates into aging platforms. Will they conclude this is the fate of the Air? There are already the first signs of this, with the Gravity being the platform that introduces UX 3.0, that is first to use the next-generation motors, that brings heat pumps to the cars, that brings air suspensions (not necessarily an improvement), that finally might introduce the long-forgotten "executive" rear seating that was prominent in early Air promotions.

In fact, I wonder if Lucid's own publicizing of the great new features and advances of the Gravity is not one of the brakes on Air sales. Could the whole "we've taken everything we learned from the Air to build an even better SUV" be backfiring?

I love the brand. But even I'm not sure what it is aiming to be . . . or will be.
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This post articulates my feelings perfectly. Well spoken. Thank you.
 
hmp10 said:
Early on, in the person of Peter Rawlinson, Lucid defined its success as using an initial premium product to generate high margins that could then be used to bring less-expensive, high efficiency products to a larger market for the good of people and planet. At the same time, he set aim at large German luxury sedans by defining them as the brand's chief competition in what seemed to be an effort to discourage comparisons with Tesla.

There were conflicts inherent in this dual vision. Using a premium product to generate margins for the real game -- moving into the mass market -- was exactly the path Tesla had earlier taken and was one that would ring familiar bells with EV fans, thus reinforcing comparisons to Tesla. Yet, the also-stated aim to brand Lucid a competitor to luxury German brands created confusion. What was the brand identity to be in the minds of buyers? Were they to think of Lucid as the EV alternative to their S Class and 7 Series cars, or were they biding their time for Lucid to be the alternative to their Model 3s and Ys?

This question has real implications. If becoming a lasting competitor to premium German brands is the long game, the Air will remain the platform that receives the newest technology first, that drives the visual identity of the rest of the product line, and that nurses the caché of what it means to own a Mercedes or BMW.

If moving down into the mass market as Tesla has done is the long game for Lucid, people will take note of what the Model S and the Model X have become: engineering afterthoughts that are periodically throwing new components and minor updates into aging platforms. Will they conclude this is the fate of the Air? There are already the first signs of this, with the Gravity being the platform that introduces UX 3.0, that is first to use the next-generation motors, that brings heat pumps to the cars, that brings air suspensions (not necessarily an improvement), that finally might introduce the long-forgotten "executive" rear seating that was prominent in early Air promotions.

In fact, I wonder if Lucid's own publicizing of the great new features and advances of the Gravity is not one of the brakes on Air sales. Could the whole "we've taken everything we learned from the Air to build an even better SUV" be backfiring?

I love the brand. But even I'm not sure what it is aiming to be . . . or will be.
Click to expand...
That was very well written. I was personally hoping that the Air became the flagship, as well. However, we do have to remember that Gravity has not even started deliveries, and I would give Lucid some time for that and the potential Air refresh. I just hope Lucid doesn't lose sight of what it is with the Gravity(which is somewhat apparent with the removal of design hallmarks, like minimalistic lighting and two tone seats).

We also have to remember that even the german brands themselves are explicitly targeting tesla. For example, BMW's NA boss stated that their target for the next gen Neue Klasse is to beat Tesla at their own game in regards to specs(https://insideevs.com/news/669109/bmw-determined-beat-tesla-own-game-bevs-top-priority/). Therefore, I'm not sure if we can even use this old target from Rawlinson as a base, seeing as even Tesla and the Germans are competing amongst themselves. However, Lucid leans more to that german side in my opinion as they have more premium materials and driving experiences in line with them.

Right now, the WHOLE INDUSTRY has no idea what it wants to be, or will be. Lucid is included in that.
 
hmp10 said:
Early on, in the person of Peter Rawlinson, Lucid defined its success as using an initial premium product to generate high margins that could then be used to bring less-expensive, high efficiency products to a larger market for the good of people and planet. At the same time, he set aim at large German luxury sedans by defining them as the brand's chief competition in what seemed to be an effort to discourage comparisons with Tesla.

There were conflicts inherent in this dual vision. Using a premium product to generate margins for the real game -- moving into the mass market -- was exactly the path Tesla had earlier taken and was one that would ring familiar bells with EV fans, thus reinforcing comparisons to Tesla. Yet, the also-stated aim to brand Lucid a competitor to luxury German brands created confusion. What was the brand identity to be in the minds of buyers? Were they to think of Lucid as the EV alternative to their S Class and 7 Series cars, or were they biding their time for Lucid to be the alternative to their Model 3s and Ys?

This question has real implications. If becoming a lasting competitor to premium German brands is the long game, the Air will remain the platform that receives the newest technology first, that drives the visual identity of the rest of the product line, and that nurses the caché of what it means to own a Mercedes or BMW.

If moving down into the mass market as Tesla has done is the long game for Lucid, people will take note of what the Model S and the Model X have become: engineering afterthoughts that are periodically throwing new components and minor updates into aging platforms. Will they conclude this is the fate of the Air? There are already the first signs of this, with the Gravity being the platform that introduces UX 3.0, that is first to use the next-generation motors, that brings heat pumps to the cars, that brings air suspensions (not necessarily an improvement), that finally might introduce the long-forgotten "executive" rear seating that was prominent in early Air promotions.

In fact, I wonder if Lucid's own publicizing of the great new features and advances of the Gravity is not one of the brakes on Air sales. Could the whole "we've taken everything we learned from the Air to build an even better SUV" be backfiring?

I love the brand. But even I'm not sure what it is aiming to be . . . or will be.
Click to expand...

Spot on. I think there's probably a lot of worries right now amongst Air owners that we're going to be "left behind." I don't personally feel that. But it's a real danger.

I'm still very confident UX 3.0, in some modified form, will show up on Air not long after the release of Gravity. I'm also confident Air will get a significant hardware refresh sooner than we may think. Maybe with the 2025 or 2026 models? To bring it up to Gravity's specs.

True, that still makes the Air "second fiddle" for the time being, but I just think it's a temporary reality of such a small company that's still getting its feet wet.

The problem is that Air took so long to get to market that its hardware is just not fit for Gravity or mid-size. We'd be talking about 2015 processors in a 2026 model car?

I do wonder if long-term, once Gravity and mid-size are out there, Lucid will shift back to an "Air first" development strategy. More akin to Mercedes with S-class, as opposed to Tesla. I'm guessing they will.
 
xponents said:
We also have to remember that even the german brands themselves are explicitly targeting tesla.
Click to expand...

When Rawlinson talks about what the German brands represent, I think he's thinking in an American context. In the U.S. Mercedes, for example, is associated in people's minds with luxury, performance, and premium pricing. Even though they now have a wide array of lower-ticket products in our market, it is the caché of the upper-tier cars that helps them sell lower-tier cars (that sometimes aren't even very compelling from a design/engineering standpoint).

But to a German, a Mercedes calls up a wider array of associations. Besides being what the Germans call "ein großer Wagen" (meaning an expensive or high-performance car, not necessarily a large one), it also their taxi, delivery truck, town runabout.

Thus I think long-established brands such as Mercedes have grown beyond niche-specific identities and consequently can play on many more fields than Lucid without sowing confusion.

One day I'm going to help my brother get into a Lucid Air as I earlier helped him get into a Tesla. But now knowing that UX 3.0, advanced motors, and a heat pump will be in a Lucid by year end but not yet in an Air, today is not that day.
 
joec said:
I think there's probably a lot of worries right now amongst Air owners that we're going to be "left behind." I don't personally feel that. But it's a real danger.
Click to expand...

I don't feel it, either. As I've posted for the past two years, I'm more interested in a driving machine than a rolling iPad, the Air is the best driving machine I've ever owned, and I intend to keep our Air for that very reason after our Gravity arrives.

UX 2.0 fixed the software issues that drove me to distraction, and I like what we now have. I don't need ride height adjustment and prefer the coil setup over an air suspension for dynamic reasons. The range and power are more than sufficient for any purpose I have, so incremental improvements in motor efficiency are interesting but irrelevant. I love the two-tone interior of the Air and will miss it in the Gravity. Living in South Florida, the advantages of a heat pump are not worth the additional weight and complexity.

For my brother -- a true EV nut -- the situation is different. Living in a colder climate, the heat pump would matter to him. He obsesses over drivetrain specs and would wait for the improved motors (as he has been waiting two years for Tesla to bring the single casting technology to the Model Y before he leaps). And he's a software junkie for whom UX 3.0 would be a biggie.
 
Yikes! Is there something in the air today? Spanning several threads, so much of the commentary seems to be distressingly negative, and this is where I come for a little encouragement from the faithful. Especially after watching the stock being manipulated down 5% or so every day. Think I'll sign off and go for a ride!
 
Buffalo Bob said:
Yikes! Is there something in the air today? Spanning several threads, so much of the commentary seems to be distressingly negative, and this is where I come for a little encouragement from the faithful. Especially after watching the stock being manipulated down 5% or so every day. Think I'll sign off and go for a ride!
Click to expand...
Doesn't matter, bought more. That's the spirit! Also, don't care will be a day 1 reservation holder for a Dream Edition Gravity.
 
$2.72 is too low to pass up. Just bought another 1000 . If this thing ever gets back to $10, I'm gonna be happier than a pig in poop!
 
@hmp10 , could not agree more with your perspective on the chase of prestige that should take precedent and priority, yet conflated by any comparisons of Lucid with Tesla.

Credit where it is due, Tesla ushered EVs into the mainstream conversation and middle class; however and echoing your points, Mercedes, for example, has a pedigree of automotive engineering excellence that, for decades, gives way to a reputation that favorably precedes the brand around the world. Tesla lost that chance at high-end caché with their, albeit successful, primary mission to make a mass market vehicle. The two strategies are mutually exclusive as you have well articulated in your posts.

This philosophy applies to any high-end brand. If I were to simplify it, perhaps one must not dilute your best offering as it serves as the basis for your identity. The identity of the product is what motivates human elements of consumerism; a la the S-Class, F1 teams, Hermes Birkin, etc...

Suffice to say, and by no means do I say this disparagingly as I know many people love cars from all legacy OEMs - imagine if in some alternate universe that in 2022, it was GM that happened to launch a vehicle that was completely identical to the AIR (in cost, dimensions, performance, etc.) under the Chevrolet (or even Cadillac) brand and Lucid was never a thing. I would bet that very few of us would have felt compelled to purchase an "AIR."

Here many of us are today with our Lucid vehicles, rooting for their long-term success. I sure am!
 
Buffalo Bob said:
Yikes! Is there something in the air today? Spanning several threads, so much of the commentary seems to be distressingly negative, and this is where I come for a little encouragement from the faithful. Especially after watching the stock being manipulated down 5% or so every day. Think I'll sign off and go for a ride!
Click to expand...
Yeah, but don't worry. Someone will be along to accuse us all of being fanboys soon enough.

Sorry to contribute to the negativity today. I'm not feeling it myself. But I am trying to do a better job of empathizing with others.
 
hmp10 said:
Early on, in the person of Peter Rawlinson, Lucid defined its success as using an initial premium product to generate high margins that could then be used to bring less-expensive, high efficiency products to a larger market for the good of people and planet. At the same time, he set aim at large German luxury sedans by defining them as the brand's chief competition in what seemed to be an effort to discourage comparisons with Tesla.

There were conflicts inherent in this dual vision. Using a premium product to generate margins for the real game -- moving into the mass market -- was exactly the path Tesla had earlier taken and was one that would ring familiar bells with EV fans, thus reinforcing comparisons to Tesla. Yet, the also-stated aim to brand Lucid a competitor to luxury German brands created confusion. What was the brand identity to be in the minds of buyers? Were they to think of Lucid as the EV alternative to their S Class and 7 Series cars, or were they biding their time for Lucid to be the alternative to their Model 3s and Ys?

This question has real implications. If becoming a lasting competitor to premium German brands is the long game, the Air will remain the platform that receives the newest technology first, that drives the visual identity of the rest of the product line, and that nurses the caché of what it means to own a Mercedes or BMW.

If moving down into the mass market as Tesla has done is the long game for Lucid, people will take note of what the Model S and the Model X have become: engineering afterthoughts that are periodically throwing new components and minor updates into aging platforms. Will they conclude this is the fate of the Air? There are already the first signs of this, with the Gravity being the platform that introduces UX 3.0, that is first to use the next-generation motors, that brings heat pumps to the cars, that brings air suspensions (not necessarily an improvement), that finally might introduce the long-forgotten "executive" rear seating that was prominent in early Air promotions.

In fact, I wonder if Lucid's own publicizing of the great new features and advances of the Gravity is not one of the brakes on Air sales. Could the whole "we've taken everything we learned from the Air to build an even better SUV" be backfiring?

I love the brand. But even I'm not sure what it is aiming to be . . . or will be.
Click to expand...
I love the sentiment, but I would tend to disagree that the Air is is going to go the way of the Model S. There is a necessity to produce the Gravity rather than solely focusing on the Air, however, there are things learned from Air and Gravity that will most definitely be making its way into the refreshed Air model. We've already seen improvements of the Air, publicly, with regard to bringing the CD down even further, and I have no doubt that some of the Sapphire's engineering will make its way into the next model Air. The company needs to grow it's product line and Gravity is perfect for that purpose, but to compete with BMW/MB/Porsche/Audi, the Air will still be the flagship model for Lucid.
 
hydbob said:
. . . I would tend to disagree that the Air is is going to go the way of the Model S. There is a necessity to produce the Gravity rather than solely focusing on the Air, however, there are things learned from Air and Gravity that will most definitely be making its way into the refreshed Air model.
Click to expand...

I hope you're right, and you may well be. I guess I'm just too haunted by the history of some brands that attempted to go downmarket while trying to maintain a premium brand luster.

I think of Packard, once a rival to Cadillac for both luxury and engineering, and the attempts to go down-market that spelled its doom. Some business historians think that had Packard contented itself with staying a low-volume luxury manufacturer, it would have been an 80,000-unit-per-year manufacturer from the 1950's onward.

I think of Cadillac, once truly the engineering standard of the automotive world, that by the 1980's was pumping out the vile Cimarron in an attempt to get Chevrolet Cavalier buyers to pony up some extra cash for more vinyl and chromed plastic trim. Even today one of its best-known offerings is the gargantuan truck-based Escalade -- which occupies a place in the public imagination as a platform to bling out for drug dealers and pimps. (And it'll stay on this path with a 9,000-pound electric version that requires a 200-kWh battery pack to get minimally-acceptable range.)

I think of Mercedes and the GLA 250 I once had the misfortune to pick up at a rental counter. Anyone who drove that car as their first Mercedes experience would never understand what the S and E Class Mercedes once stood for. (And seeing the bloated rolling video arcade that is the EQS would not take them any further down the road to understanding.)

I think Porsche might offer Lucid the best example of how to maintain a premium caché while broadening offerings downward. With well-engineered products such as the Cayenne and the 718 sport series, they figured out that you could broaden beyond an iconic product such as the 911, sell them at somewhat lower but still substantial prices, and keep the company's growth and success perpetually on the boil.

People get too focused on EV versus ICE when it comes to brand identify and marketing dynamics. I believe these things ultimately will remain relatively constant regardless of powertrain type.

As @stealth says, Tesla has walked away from the high-end caché in pursuit of becoming an electric Toyota. Let Tesla be Tesla. Lucid needs to find a different path. The Air proves it has the engineering chops to be whatever it wants. Let it want to be the maker of the best-engineered and designed premium electric vehicles on the planet.
 
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