SURVEY: Stated Range When Charged to 100%

[KySerenity]

Typically due to battery degradation, an EV loses approximately 2% of range each year during the first 3-4 years prior to leveling off. It is sad to hear that @hydbob stated range at 100% charge currently is 445 when his Dream Performance is rated for 471. His degree of range loss is well beyond that which would be expected. During the first year, his range should not drop much below 460.

Previous owners have posted similar remarks without our group following through on this concern. Although there may be multiple reasons for the problem, I see two obvious possibilities: 1: The software does not calculate the range correctly. 2: Individual cells are going "dark" prematurely.

I have concerns the problem may be related to scenario #2. If you watch Peter's video on the battery construction, each battery pack contains 300 cells that are connected by 600 delicate aluminum straps using pressure alone. NOTHING is soldered. The plate and straps are made in a single injection moulded technique. For this to work, the injection moulding must be perfect. In addition, great care must be exercised during installation to prevent bending one of the 600 straps. These are the same folks that put Tahoe door panels into a Mojave interior. In addition, road vibration may affect these tiny straps. Attached to this message is an image of a battery plate from Peter's video.

Further investigation would seem to be in the best interest of all owners (present and future). For this reason, I would like to initiate a SURVEY OF ALL CURRENT OWNERS. Please answer the following questions:

1. Type of car (Dream Performance, Dream Range, or Grand Touring)
2. Tire size (suggested by @hydbob)
3. Current mileage
4. Stated range when your car is charged to 100%.

If this reveals no problem, then GREAT! If multiple owners reveal significant range loss, then it would seem prudent to have the vehicles inspected at a service center. If would be really interesting to discover if @hydbob battery in his Dream still demonstrates 118KW. If not, cells have gone "dark" prematurely. If the battery still registers 118KW, then the software needs to be updated.

 

[hydbob]

Typically due to battery degradation, an EV loses approximately 2% of range each year during the first 3-4 years prior to leveling off. It is sad to hear that @hydbob stated range at 100% charge currently is 445 when his Dream Performance is rated for 471. His degree of range loss is well beyond that which would be expected. During the first year, his range should not drop much below 460.

Previous owners have posted similar remarks without our group following through on this concern. Although there may be multiple reasons for the problem, I see two obvious possibilities: 1: The software does not calculate the range correctly. 2: Individual cells are going "dark" prematurely.

I have concerns the problem may be related to scenario #2. If you watch Peter's video on the battery construction, each battery pack contains 300 cells that are connected by 600 delicate aluminum straps using pressure alone. NOTHING is soldered. The plate and straps are made in a single injection moulded technique. For this to work, the injection moulding must be perfect. In addition, great care must be exercised during installation to prevent bending one of the 600 straps. These are the same folks that put Tahoe door panels into a Mojave interior. In addition, road vibration may affect these tiny straps. Attached to this message is an image of a battery plate from Peter's video.

Further investigation would seem to be in the best interest of all owners (present and future). For this reason, I would like to initiate a SURVEY OF ALL CURRENT OWNERS. Please answer the following questions:

1. Type of car (Dream Performance, Dream Range, or Grand Touring)
2. Current mileage
3. Stated range when your car is charged to 100%.

If this reveals no problem, then GREAT! If multiple owners reveal significant range loss, then it would seem prudent to have the vehicles inspected at a service center. If would be really interesting to discover if @hydbob battery in his Dream still demonstrates 118KW. If not, cells have gone "dark" prematurely. If the battery still registers 118KW, then the software needs to be updated.

I'll update this when I charge my car to 100% tonight (prepping for a road trip) but just a minor correction is that the DEP with 21" is only stated to get 451 per EPA. Also considering that, from reports, the range is calculated off historical driving data, 445 in my opinion is excellent! Will add a proper response after charging overnight.

 

[LCIDdreams]

My understanding is the rate of capacity loss will be fastest in the first year or so then the rate of loss tapers off (I.e we should expect a larger % loss in the first year than subsequent years). Also cars stored in cold conditions would generally expect higher losses

https://electrek.co/2018/04/14/tesla-battery-degradation-data/screen-shot-2018-04-14-at-2-56-15-pm/

If the stated range on the display is really based off historical data of actual achieved range for a specific car then it’s not really instructive to compare against other cars or the EPA rated range

Typically due to battery degradation, an EV loses approximately 2% of range each year during the first 3-4 years prior to leveling off. It is sad to hear that @hydbob stated range at 100% charge currently is 445 when his Dream Performance is rated for 471. His degree of range loss is well beyond that which would be expected. During the first year, his range should not drop much below 460.

Previous owners have posted similar remarks without our group following through on this concern. Although there may be multiple reasons for the problem, I see two obvious possibilities: 1: The software does not calculate the range correctly. 2: Individual cells are going "dark" prematurely.

I have concerns the problem may be related to scenario #2. If you watch Peter's video on the battery construction, each battery pack contains 300 cells that are connected by 600 delicate aluminum straps using pressure alone. NOTHING is soldered. The plate and straps are made in a single injection moulded technique. For this to work, the injection moulding must be perfect. In addition, great care must be exercised during installation to prevent bending one of the 600 straps. These are the same folks that put Tahoe door panels into a Mojave interior. In addition, road vibration may affect these tiny straps. Attached to this message is an image of a battery plate from Peter's video.

Further investigation would seem to be in the best interest of all owners (present and future). For this reason, I would like to initiate a SURVEY OF ALL CURRENT OWNERS. Please answer the following questions:

1. Type of car (Dream Performance, Dream Range, or Grand Touring)
2. Tire size (suggested by @hydbob)
3. Current mileage
4. Stated range when your car is charged to 100%.

If this reveals no problem, then GREAT! If multiple owners reveal significant range loss, then it would seem prudent to have the vehicles inspected at a service center. If would be really interesting to discover if @hydbob battery in his Dream still demonstrates 118KW. If not, cells have gone "dark" prematurely. If the battery still registers 118KW, then the software needs to be updated.

 

[Bbq9]

I am not sure I can answer this.
even when I was prepping for the roadtrip to / from Silicon Valley-Scottsdale - EVEN then I didn't charge to 100%

in fact in the 2000 miles I have never charged higher than 95%

AND

on my dashboard, I use %SOC not range...

 

[DeaneG]

Those aluminum conductors between the cell tops and the bus bars are added by ultrasonic welding (wire bond) after the pack is assembled. They're a metal-to-metal welded bond and are reasonably robust.

 

[Pete44]

I'll update this when I charge my car to 100% tonight (prepping for a road trip) but just a minor correction is that the DEP with 21" is only stated to get 451 per EPA. Also considering that, from reports, the range is calculated off historical driving data, 445 in my opinion is excellent! Will add a proper response after charging overnight.

Agree. The service technician told me the recent cars probably have over 50 miles when delivered and many of those miles are intentionally driven hard so out of the box the estimated range will likely be less than EPA or actual. Hydbob only had 7 miles or so on his car so it was delivered with a high range estimate. For this test to make much sense, I might suggest you either add how many miles are on the car or eliminate those cars with under 2 or 3,000 miles.

 

[Demosthenes]

AGT, 21 inch wheels, 463 miles at 100% charge, mileage not sure but minimal

 

[Crdgk]

I also dont understand how this will help. Unless the mi/KWh resets for everyone every time to some standard (?4.4), this doesn’t make sense. The miles stated at 100% will be different for everyone and every charge based on prior average mi/kWh. Even then the standard value would have to be different for each car based on performance vs touring vs wheel size vs tire vs outdoor season…. I’d also like to benchmark but dont see how to do it at this time.

 

[hydbob]

Okay

DEP, 21" wheels, full charge shows 446 miles, I have 4200 miles on the vehicle

 

[Crdgk]

Looks like your expected range under perfect conditions and perfect driving is 471. I rarely get EPA on my Highlander but you are very close. My calculation is you are showing 95% of expected which is really good for an ICE car. Seems like you drive efficiently. My wife's Tesla M3 never got EPA but we live in cold mountainous climate. I am still not sure what it means as without resetting to some standard value it is going to change every trip based on your recent driving experience. And since EPA range is different for different vehicles, we would all have different standard values even with same size battery pack.
I really like another poster's request for a more instantaneous readout. I am not sure how I am doing as the numbers go up and down slowly. I have less than 200mi. Our old Toyota Prius had a great display that showed average but also each 5 or 10min of driving as a column with last 5 divisions visible. I seem to go from 4.6mi/kwh to 1.9 for reasons I cant figure out. Sometimes obvious like showing off but mostly local city driving stop and go. Oh well. see what happens over time.

 

[hydbob]

Looks like your expected range under perfect conditions and perfect driving is 471. I rarely get EPA on my Highlander but you are very close. My calculation is you are showing 95% of expected which is really good for an ICE car. Seems like you drive efficiently. My wife's Tesla M3 never got EPA but we live in cold mountainous climate. I am still not sure what it means as without resetting to some standard value it is going to change every trip based on your recent driving experience. And since EPA range is different for different vehicles, we would all have different standard values even with same size battery pack.
I really like another poster's request for a more instantaneous readout. I am not sure how I am doing as the numbers go up and down slowly. I have less than 200mi. Our old Toyota Prius had a great display that showed average but also each 5 or 10min of driving as a column with last 5 divisions visible. I seem to go from 4.6mi/kwh to 1.9 for reasons I cant figure out. Sometimes obvious like showing off but mostly local city driving stop and go. Oh well. see what happens over time.

451 EPA for me. So 98.9 %...

 

[Crdgk]

Ahh. You ARE a good driver!

 

[LCIDdreams]

I also dont understand how this will help. Unless the mi/KWh resets for everyone every time to some standard (?4.4), this doesn’t make sense. The miles stated at 100% will be different for everyone and every charge based on prior average mi/kWh. Even then the standard value would have to be different for each car based on performance vs touring vs wheel size vs tire vs outdoor season…. I’d also like to benchmark but dont see how to do it at this time.

I agree- if the stated mileage estimate on the display is really based on that specific cars driving history, then comparing values from car to car is only going to show who has been driving more efficiently (and who lives in a colder climate) over the life of the car. It would not be useful to determine battery degradation.

 

[Steveinarizona]

I'll update this when I charge my car to 100% tonight (prepping for a road trip) but just a minor correction is that the DEP with 21" is only stated to get 451 per EPA. Also considering that, from reports, the range is calculated off historical driving data, 445 in my opinion is excellent! Will add a proper response after charging overnight.

The EPA rating is based on driving like "the little old lady from Pasadena". Who buys a car with this kind of HP and drives that way?

So, the real world range will be considerably less. Presumably, the original estimate is the EPA and as one actually drives the car, it will start to decline. It should mostly level off, however.

 

[Dreamed]

To preface my response, my personal approach (as it is now with my Tesla after years of obsessing about numbers) is to set to percent and just drive and enjoy. There's more range than my and my passengers' bladders can withstand on a long road trip, as I recently discovered. The number we see doesn't even accurately reflect the distance you can drive since range depends on many factors most of which deviate significantly from EPA rating.

With respect to numbers, in the design page for DEP when you select the information i it says 451 miles for the 21" wheels and 471 for the 19" wheels. See screen shot below. The 451 number is the one I expected since I have the 21" wheels and the car was charged to 100% the night before I took delivery where it showed 450 miles.
On a recent road trip I charged to 100% and the range showed 445 miles. I am happy with that.

What I would really like to see, however, is MUCH more information about energy use, akin to the energy and trip consumption charts in Tesla vehicles. What matters most on a road trip is understanding how much energy is being used (not just the average mi/kWh) and the estimated energy capacity remaining at the destination. In the Lucid we don't get estimated percent at destination when we navigate to a destination. I hope this changes, along with improved charging information on route.

 

[hydbob]

To preface my response, my personal approach (as it is now with my Tesla after years of obsessing about numbers) is to set to percent and just drive and enjoy. There's more range than my and my passengers' bladders can withstand on a long road trip, as I recently discovered. The number we see doesn't even accurately reflect the distance you can drive since range depends on many factors most of which deviate significantly from EPA rating.

With respect to numbers, in the design page for DEP when you select the information i it says 451 miles for the 21" wheels and 471 for the 19" wheels. See screen shot below. The 451 number is the one I expected since I have the 21" wheels and the car was charged to 100% the night before I took delivery where it showed 450 miles.
On a recent road trip I charged to 100% and the range showed 445 miles. I am happy with that.

What I would really like to see, however, is MUCH more information about energy use, akin to the energy and trip consumption charts in Tesla vehicles. What matters most on a road trip is understanding how much energy is being used (not just the average mi/kWh) and the estimated energy capacity remaining at the destination. In the Lucid we don't get estimated percent at destination when we navigate to a destination. I hope this changes, along with improved charging information on route.


View attachment 1777

Good to see you back here, especially since you are one of the original 12.

 

[GEWC]

To preface my response, my personal approach (as it is now with my Tesla after years of obsessing about numbers) is to set to percent and just drive and enjoy. There's more range than my and my passengers' bladders can withstand on a long road trip, as I recently discovered. The number we see doesn't even accurately reflect the distance you can drive since range depends on many factors most of which deviate significantly from EPA rating.

With respect to numbers, in the design page for DEP when you select the information i it says 451 miles for the 21" wheels and 471 for the 19" wheels. See screen shot below. The 451 number is the one I expected since I have the 21" wheels and the car was charged to 100% the night before I took delivery where it showed 450 miles.
On a recent road trip I charged to 100% and the range showed 445 miles. I am happy with that.

What I would really like to see, however, is MUCH more information about energy use, akin to the energy and trip consumption charts in Tesla vehicles. What matters most on a road trip is understanding how much energy is being used (not just the average mi/kWh) and the estimated energy capacity remaining at the destination. In the Lucid we don't get estimated percent at destination when we navigate to a destination. I hope this changes, along with improved charging information on route.


View attachment 1777

So true. I rely on estimated percent to a destination a lot in my Model S. This would be very handy to have.

 

[GCM-SanDiego]

Okay. I have 2000 miles on my AGT 21” wheels and charging it to 99% it said 467 miles.

 

[Sparky2]

I Have the AGT long range with the 19” wheels. Full charge showed 516 miles . Drove the car mainly on the highway at 65-70 mph , after 243 miles actually driven it showed my remaining range was 100, but based on the miles driven thus far, that realistically will be closer to MAYBE 275… if I’m lucky. My 2017 S 100D with 125k charges to 300 ( new 335), and I get about 275 actual. Just upgraded to 2.0.18 on my LR GT and with 830miles total driven ( had it for a week) , I’ll take it out tomorrow and do the same route. Any input or experiences would be appreciated . Was told by delivery person Mika get will improve as I approach 2500 total. Any thoughts?

 

[sansonoma]

Typically due to battery degradation, an EV loses approximately 2% of range each year during the first 3-4 years prior to leveling off. It is sad to hear that @hydbob stated range at 100% charge currently is 445 when his Dream Performance is rated for 471. His degree of range loss is well beyond that which would be expected. During the first year, his range should not drop much below 460.

Previous owners have posted similar remarks without our group following through on this concern. Although there may be multiple reasons for the problem, I see two obvious possibilities: 1: The software does not calculate the range correctly. 2: Individual cells are going "dark" prematurely.

I have concerns the problem may be related to scenario #2. If you watch Peter's video on the battery construction, each battery pack contains 300 cells that are connected by 600 delicate aluminum straps using pressure alone. NOTHING is soldered. The plate and straps are made in a single injection moulded technique. For this to work, the injection moulding must be perfect. In addition, great care must be exercised during installation to prevent bending one of the 600 straps. These are the same folks that put Tahoe door panels into a Mojave interior. In addition, road vibration may affect these tiny straps. Attached to this message is an image of a battery plate from Peter's video.

Further investigation would seem to be in the best interest of all owners (present and future). For this reason, I would like to initiate a SURVEY OF ALL CURRENT OWNERS. Please answer the following questions:

1. Type of car (Dream Performance, Dream Range, or Grand Touring)
2. Tire size (suggested by @hydbob)
3. Current mileage
4. Stated range when your car is charged to 100%.

If this reveals no problem, then GREAT! If multiple owners reveal significant range loss, then it would seem prudent to have the vehicles inspected at a service center. If would be really interesting to discover if @hydbob battery in his Dream still demonstrates 118KW. If not, cells have gone "dark" prematurely. If the battery still registers 118KW, then the software needs to be updated.

1. Type of car - Grand Touring
2. Tire size 19"
3. Current mileage - 690
4. Stated range when your car is charged to 100%. - 516