NACS Megathread

[momo3605]

In fairness, I used to see people at gas stations all the time pulling up to the wrong side, because they had no idea which side the gas cap was on.

(As if there weren't a little arrow right there on the gas meter telling you exactly which side it's on.)

I see people CHOOSE to do this on purpose at Costco gas stations so they can cut the line and save 30 seconds. UGH

The average EV owner intelligence is much more likely to go down than up with mass adoption. Strap in. It's going to be a long ride.

This has already started imo. Most of the EQ/ID4/Bolt/Niro's I see in the Bay Area are driven by what looks like the owners grand parents. Can barely use the phone that they need to then log into the right app and initiate charging in a particular way that they don't know how to do either.

 

[Tâm]

Yep. I understand how manufacturers wanted a unified standard, but CCS really got the short end of the stick. Tesla doesn't lift a finger, all cars are built to NACS, and to top it off, few other manufacturer's cars will use Tesla stations due to slow charging. I guess people get peace of mind on road trips but you have to be very desperate to accept 50kW charging....

It's an issue from those 800v designers who refuse to be backward compatible with 250kw 400V.

But you are right that if a faster EA station is right next to a slower Tesla station, who would be crazy enough to choose the slower one.

In reality, EA may have only 4 stalls with long line while the slower one has more than dozens with no line: That provides more choices for those who wait in line.

 

[xponents]

I see people CHOOSE to do this on purpose at Costco gas stations so they can cut the line and save 30 seconds. UGH

I mean, costco has those long cables that can go across the car, so maybe thats an exception?

This is already started imo. Most of the EQ/ID4/Bolt/Niro's I see in the Bay Area are driven by what looks like the owners grand parents. Can barely use the phone that they need to then log into the right app and initiate charging in a particular way that they don't know how to do either.

My area is full of Asian Indians(including me), most of who just got a Tesla for the brand association. When I went to the nearest Tesla service center, I was told that at least 1/60 of new owners crash their car within a day because they didn't know how regen braking worked

 

[momo3605]

It's an issue from those 800v designers who refuse to be backward compatible with 250kw 400V.

But you are right that if a faster EA station right next to a slower Tesla station, who would be crazy enough to choose the slower one.

In reality, EA may have only 4 stalls with long line while the slower one has more than dozens with no line: That provides more choices for those who wait in line.

This is what I asked earlier. How many 800V cars arae not backward compatible for 400V. Porsche has 150kw onboard converter (which imo is enough). Lucid and hyundai/kia seem to be the only two manufacturers that can't charge >50kw. Am I missing anyone else?

 

[hydbob]

This is what I asked earlier. How many 800V cars arae not backward compatible for 400V. Porsche has 150kw onboard converter (which imo is enough). Lucid and hyundai/kia seem to be the only two manufacturers that can't charge >50kw. Am I missing anyone else?

It's really only Lucid because Hyundai built in an inverter. I think they can get 100kw? Porsche's solution costs an extra $1500? From what I remember

 

[momo3605]

It's really only Lucid because Hyundai built in an inverter. I think they can get 100kw? Porsche's solution costs an extra $1500? From what I remember

Ah got it...but yea I have a few friends with Taycans. Its a $450 option. Everyone just checks the box lol. I think that's why they made it free in the Macan EV

 

[Tâm]

This is what I asked earlier. How many 800V cars arae not backward compatible for 400V. Porsche has 150kw onboard converter (which imo is enough). Lucid and hyundai/kia seem to be the only two manufacturers that can't charge >50kw. Am I missing anyone else?

Again, it's a designer's issue, not a technological issue.

Tesla CyberTruck uses two packs of 400V in series to provide 800V architecture for the motors and 800V charging.

When using a 400V station, it uses a physical switch below to automatically route those two packs in parallel for 400V 250 kW charging:

GM Ultium has 400V architecture for its motors, but it can also take the 350kW advantage in charging by doing 400V/800V internal parallel/series battery switching as needed.

This is what I read on brands with 400/800V-capable charging:

Audi: unknown/270kW
Lucid: 50/350kW
Hyundai/Kia: 50/233
Genesis: 50/350

GM: 250/350 (800V capable charging, but operating motors at 400V)
Tesla CyberTruck: 250/350
Mercedes: 170/350
Porsche: 150/350

 

[Ampere]

Ford announced today that it will provide complimentary CCS to NACS adapters for previous purchasers of its EVs (150 and Mach-E).

 

[Tâm]

I have a feeling 800V EVs are going to get screwed with this NACS transition. Tesla has installed all of ZERO 800V stations so far, and even with NACS support, we'll only get 50kw charging which is next to worthless. I don't know if Tesla has any incentive to support 800V across their whole network when the only car that supports it is the cybertruck and they will be very for a while. (It can also charge just fine on 400V V3 stations)

To be eligible for NEVI, Tesla has to provide at least 4 stalls that are at least 920V for each station.

Even when Tesla complies with the requirements, that helps some but not much for the current protocol of Lucid backward compatible 400V speed but at 50kW.

You are right: I would not count that most NACS will fast charge above 50kW for Lucid anytime soon.

But it's still nice if I can buy a NACS adapter even at 50kW because that is not an option right now.

To some, opening up an option is "screwed." To me, an additional 50kW NACS option is better than only one option of 350kW CCS.

 

[DeaneG]

FWIW Tesla is said to be providing the adapters to Ford. We won't be buying them from "ZAPVEE" on Amazon.

 

[momo3605]

FWIW Tesla is said to be providing the adapters to Ford. We won't be buying them from "ZAPVEE" on Amazon.

Rumor has it that the Tesla magicdock adapters are only 350A. Which would limit everyone to like 150KW charge speed. But then companies like Lectron are building 500A/1000V compatible adapters. I wonder if you would be able to use a 3rd party adapter if you wanted to charge faster than 150KW

 

[DeaneG]

Rumor has it that the Tesla magicdock adapters are only 350A. Which would limit everyone to like 150KW charge speed. But then companies like Lectron are building 500A/1000V compatible adapters. I wonder if you would be able to use a 3rd party adapter if you wanted to charge faster than 150KW

140kW max for those who are using a V3 Tesla station or have a 400V car. Like @Tâm said, NEVI funds require 920V minimum compliance. We'll see if Tesla wants federal money or not.
In general it seems that charging providers are not allowing adapters other than one provided by the car manufacturer. I imagine Tesla will do the same.

 

[Bill55]

140kW max for those who are using a V3 Tesla station or have a 400V car. Like @Tâm said, NEVI funds require 920V minimum compliance. We'll see if Tesla wants federal money or not.
In general it seems that charging providers are not allowing adapters other than one provided by the car manufacturer. I imagine Tesla will do the same.

Not allowing adapters other than those supplied by the manufacturer would require additional electronic in the adapter and an addition check/handshake. This seems to add complexity to what otherwise could be a piece of plastic and copper. I'm interested to see a tear down of the Ford adapter.

 

[xponents]

Not allowing adapters other than those supplied by the manufacturer would require additional electronic in the adapter and an addition check/handshake. This seems to add complexity to what otherwise could be a piece of plastic and copper. I'm interested to see a tear down of the Ford adapter.

Well, im guessing the charger already has some electronics in it to facilitate pNp charging. I wouldn’t have thought it was much work, and early reports seem to suggest this is the one Tesla is giving for all oems. Time will tell!

 

[DeaneG]

Not allowing adapters other than those supplied by the manufacturer would require additional electronic in the adapter and an addition check/handshake. This seems to add complexity to what otherwise could be a piece of plastic and copper. I'm interested to see a tear down of the Ford adapter.

It may be a charging network contractual terms of use limitation rather than something enforced by electronics. Charging providers and car manufacturers would want to hold the user responsible for damage or injury caused by that "500 amp" adapter from ZAPVEE.

 

[Bill55]

It may be a charging network contractual terms of use limitation rather than something enforced by electronics. Charging providers and car manufacturers would want to hold the user responsible for damage or injury caused by that "500 amp" adapter from ZAPVEE.

It would make sense to me if the car and adapter was the control point. Ford supplies for Ford, we would buy an adapter from Lucid that handshakes with the car. It is a lot of power to run through a cheap knock off.

 

[Tâm]

At last, Stellantis will use SAE J3400, the same standard as current Tesla NACS but without the word "Tesla."

Stellantis becomes the last major automaker to adopt Tesla’s charging plug

Stellantis was the last major automaker to commit.

www.theverge.com

That would speculate that there's no deal with Tesla at all.

Without the deal, how will it get live Supercharger status SDK for their navigation? That means they give up the billing right in collecting money at Supercharger with their own app.

SAE J3400 is a standard but you need a permission to access Supercharger. You can access by Tesla app but at a Magic Dock stall only or through your car's company that has a deal.

It'll be interesting to see how this will work out.

 

[momo3605]

At last, Stellantis will use SAE J3400, the same standard as current Tesla NACS but without the word "Tesla."

Stellantis becomes the last major automaker to adopt Tesla’s charging plug

Stellantis was the last major automaker to commit.

www.theverge.com

That would speculate that there's no deal with Tesla at all.

Without the deal, how will it get live Supercharger status SDK for their navigation? That means they give up the billing right in collecting money at Supercharger with their own app.

SAE J3400 is a standard but you need a permission to access Supercharger. You can access by Tesla app but at a Magic Dock stall only or through your car's company that has a deal.

It'll be interesting to see how this will work out.

Interesting...

But why should they need to have a deal? Isn't the whole point of the NACS standard and govt giving money to these companies for them to have a universal standard that every EV can use? If Tesla still gatekeeps behind their "deal" then how is that not proprietary and defeating of the entire purpose, You don't need to have a deal with EA to use their chargers. You just download an account and pay EA...it should work the same way with tesla superchargers if they want federal money

 

[Tâm]

Interesting...

But why should they need to have a deal? Isn't the whole point of the NACS standard and govt giving money to these companies for them to have a universal standard that every EV can use? If Tesla still gatekeeps behind their "deal" then how is that not proprietary and defeating of the entire purpose, You don't need to have a deal with EA to use their chargers. You just download an account and pay EA...it should work the same way with tesla superchargers if they want federal money

If you have a NEMA 14-50 outlet outside of your garage, why should I get your permission to drive up to your drive way and plug in my Lucid? NEMA 14-15 is a standard.

That's because you might have a smart main circuit breaker panel that you can control with your app to turn it off by a timer so when you are at work, I can plug in but it has no power.

 

[Tâm]

Interesting...

But why should they need to have a deal? Isn't the whole point of the NACS standard and govt giving money to these companies for them to have a universal standard that every EV can use? If Tesla still gatekeeps behind their "deal" then how is that not proprietary and defeating of the entire purpose, You don't need to have a deal with EA to use their chargers. You just download an account and pay EA...it should work the same way with tesla superchargers if they want federal money

You need to have permission from EA to use EA. That permission comes in the form of EA app or a monetary payment.

Tesla doesn't have to get Federal funds called NEVI. But if it wants to, it is required to have a minimum of 4 920+ v CCS1 stalls per station. That could be done with Magic Dock. You got permission to use Magic Dock right now without a deal but its numbers are too few to be meaningful.

The Federal standard now is CCS1, not NACS. To get Federal subsidies, you are required to have CCS1, and there is none for NACS