Electrify America is enraging EV owners

[borski]

I saw once at Madison, Texas. A Rivian R1T pulled in to use stall #2. I was using stall #1 pulling very low juice. I saw him shook his head and left. He told me it’s POS, couldn’t get hand shake. So I went to try his stall. Voila! I was pulling 170kW! EA stalls can be moody. His loss was my gain!

Yeah this happened to me in Carlsbad. Another Lucid (who happened to be there; nice guy) and I were pulling high speeds (200+) and this poor Rivian just couldn’t get a charge. Tried every station, even tried mine. They all gave him no more than 40-50kW and he was at a 8% SOC.

It’s not just us.

Whenever EA fails me, I just find another place to charge.

 

[borski]

Plugging a $10-20k 100kwh lithium car battery into a third party, 350kwh high voltage DC FC charger IS NOT as straight forward as plugging your toaster in.

True, but let’s not get complacent. It *should be* as easy as plugging your toaster in. It just isn’t yet.

 

[Worldwide Beagle]

True, but let’s not get complacent. It *should be* as easy as plugging your toaster in. It just isn’t yet.

Hey @borski, if only "should" was a business strategy. Like: "hoping." But I understand and "hope" with you in principle. I am a lawyer with a background in electronics, so I have much skepticism and very little faith. There are just too many variables NOW from too many players, too many stakeholders. and even many more players to come. And EACH one really just wants to sell their own shit - not really willing compromise to make a comprehensive system work. Hence, the Tesla Supercharger system works, even though Musk JUST wants to sell cars, because its a closed system with ONE OS and ONE handshake and ONE port. Maybe the GM BMW 7 Manufactures alliance will work. Maybe. I hope as well. I think those manufactures now see the DCFC debacle, and are driven by the same thing Musk was many years ago: you gotta remove barriers to people buying EVs - and worries about FC on the road for non-Teslas is real.

When I ran PS Audio, we (almost) never had a problem getting our stuff to work correctly, in our test systems. The $64k question was: WTF would the end user plug it into? How how would they use it? I learned to NEVER UNDERESTIMATE the bizarre electronic circuits some other company can use in their equipment. And if your power amp cannot handle THEIR Peloton spin powered, pre-amp using 1930 Western Electric NOS tubes, then WE got the blame. We used 25 loyal beta testers with BIZARRE and/or demanding systems to test and break them. And they did, and we tweaked.

What I was getting at is the electronic complexity of 25 EV brands, 25 slightly different handshakes, 25 very different operating systems, plugging into a dozen different manufactured Level 2 and Level 3 pedestals. I am amazed that plugging MY Lucid into our two CP Level 2 home chargers works perfectly every time. And plugging into the free Level 2s about town works perfectly. And every EA charger I have used (only 4) has worked, albeit at usually 75-90 kwh. Guess I am a glass of water is half full kinda guy.

I recently opened a high power (45w I think) fast smart PD charger by Samsung for my Pixel 7. It was full of IC and SOC chips. Unthinkable15 years ago.

 

[Tesla2.0]

Yeah this happened to me in Carlsbad. Another Lucid (who happened to be there; nice guy) and I were pulling high speeds (200+) and this poor Rivian just couldn’t get a charge. Tried every station, even tried mine. They all gave him no more than 40-50kW and he was at a 8% SOC.

It’s not just us.

Whenever EA fails me, I just find another place to charge.

Yes, and this also reminds me of another instance EA station in Round Rock, Texas which has 10 stalls.

I went in and plugged in charge right away on my first try. Then 10 minutes later, I saw a Taycan came in couldn’t have it charged and keep switching 4-5 stalls and then finally gave up and have to resort to call EA support. I genuinely felt for him. I could skip station with my Lucid range and he couldn’t.

 

[Worldwide Beagle]

I saw a Taycan came in couldn’t have it charged and keep switching 4-5 stalls and then finally gave up and have to resort to call EA support. I

Who the hell knows all the variables. I am starting to think it is all just a MYSTERY. A week ago I needed a top up to get home over a big pass. Older EA station. I was at 35% and I pulled no more than 70. An E-tron GT a stall away from me, same electronics as Taycan, was pulling 150. He left, I moved to HIS pedestal, I still pulled 70kwh.

 

[borski]

Hey @borski, if only "should" was a business strategy. Like: "hoping." But I understand and "hope" with you in principle. I am a lawyer with a background in electronics, so I have much skepticism and very little faith. There are just too many variables NOW from too many players, too many stakeholders. and even many more players to come. And EACH one really just wants to sell their own shit - not really willing compromise to make a comprehensive system work. Hence, the Tesla Supercharger system works, even though Musk JUST wants to sell cars, because its a closed system with ONE OS and ONE handshake and ONE port. Maybe the GM BMW 7 Manufactures alliance will work. Maybe. I hope as well. I think those manufactures now see the DCFC debacle, and are driven by the same thing Musk was many years ago: you gotta remove barriers to people buying EVs - and worries about FC on the road for non-Teslas is real.

When I ran PS Audio, we (almost) never had a problem getting our stuff to work correctly, in our test systems. The $64k question was: WTF would the end user plug it into? How how would they use it? I learned to NEVER UNDERESTIMATE the bizarre electronic circuits some other company can use in their equipment. And if your power amp cannot handle THEIR Peloton spin powered, pre-amp using 1930 Western Electric NOS tubes, then WE got the blame. We used 25 loyal beta testers with BIZARRE and/or demanding systems to test and break them. And they did, and we tweaked.

What I was getting at is the electronic complexity of 25 EV brands, 25 slightly different handshakes, 25 very different operating systems, plugging into a dozen different manufactured Level 2 and Level 3 pedestals. I am amazed that plugging MY Lucid into our two CP Level 2 home chargers works perfectly every time. And plugging into the free Level 2s about town works perfectly. And every EA charger I have used (only 4) has worked, albeit at usually 75-90 kwh. Guess I am a glass of water is half full kinda guy.

I recently opened a high power (45w I think) fast smart PD charger by Samsung for my Pixel 7. It was full of IC and SOC chips. Unthinkable15 years ago.

I agree with everything you said. My point was simply that we shouldn’t accept this current state as the end state, and yes, “hope” for more.

 

[Worldwide Beagle]

I agree with everything you said. My point was simply that we shouldn’t accept this current state as the end state, and yes, “hope” for more.

Total agreement, @borksi, I wonder what will "make it so"

I hate to say this, but I feel fortunate that wife and I do not have to drive as far and often on long road trips as many on this forum, nor have to deal with CA or PA or TX or East Coast EA chargers.

 

[borski]

Total agreement, @borksi, I wonder what will "make it so"

Time. Eventually, ICE cars will be the Model T of today; owned and worked on by enthusiasts but far from the norm. As we get there, infrastructure will have to step up - and it will. Always has in the past.

I hate to say this, but I feel fortunate that wife and I do not have to drive as far and often on long road trips as many on this forum, nor have to deal with CA or PA or TX or East Coast EA chargers.

Meh. I love driving this car, especially on long road trips. EA is fine most of the time. When it isn’t, find an EVGo. If there isn’t one (or if you know ahead of time there isn’t anything nearby) find a hotel with level 2 chargers (and a TeslaTap in case they’re Tesla chargers).

In the absolute worst case? Borrow a laundromat’s 14-50 for a small negotiated price.

On my road trips thus far I have exclusively used EA and EVGo (when more convenient and/or issues with EA), with destination chargers used on occasion if convenient.

 

[Worldwide Beagle]

In the absolute worst case? Borrow a laundromat’s 14-50 for a small negotiated price.

They let you take your Lucid into the laundromat? How many quarters for a 100 miles?

 

[EVCar]

Total agreement, @borksi, I wonder what will "make it so"

I hate to say this, but I feel fortunate that wife and I do not have to drive as far and often on long road trips as many on this forum, nor have to deal with CA or PA or TX or East Coast EA chargers.

So a genuine question: what would be the "legal" expectation for "acceptable" performance by EA if this parameter is not spelled out in the contract with Lucid?

 

[Worldwide Beagle]

So a genuine question: what would be the "legal" expectation for "acceptable" performance by EA if this parameter is not spelled out in the contract with Lucid?

Good question.

First, NO ONE here is privy to the supply agreement between Lucid and EA.

Second, there is NO chance it is not spelled out. I will bet my right arm there is a LONG DETAILED covenant disclaiming ANY performance expectations. Having written supply contracts for decades, I will bet that the EA agreement with Lucid has so many caveats and disclaimers for ANY warranty of ANY performance for ANY OR NO reason. And no recourse. Would not be surprised if the Agreement stated that EA makes no guaranty that anything will ever work at any time for anyone. And the only recourse is that Lucid does not have to pay for what its owners did not get. And NO consequential damages. I have written a few of those myself

 

[EVCar]

Good question.

First, NO ONE here is privy to the supply agreement between Lucid and EA.

Second, there is NO chance it is not spelled out. I will bet my right arm there is a LONG DETAILED covenant disclaiming ANY performance expectations. Having written supply contracts for decades, I will bet that the EA agreement with Lucid has so many caveats and disclaimers for ANY warranty of ANY performance for ANY OR NO reason. And no recourse. Would not be surprised if the Agreement stated that EA makes no guaranty that anything will ever work at any time for anyone. And the only recourse is that Lucid does not have to pay for what its owners did not get. And NO consequential damages. I have written a few of those myself

So out of naivety and ignorance, I wonder why anyone should sign such a one-sided contract with a supplier.
Maybe because that's only game in town, so take it or leave it?
Secondly, assuming that erratic and sub-par performance is truly widespread and unquestionably bad, can CCS car owners band together and do something?

 

[Worldwide Beagle]

So out of naivety and ignorance, I wonder why anyone should sign such a one-sided contract with a supplier.
Maybe because that's only game in town, so take it or leave it?
Secondly, assuming that erratic and sub-par performance is truly widespread and unquestionably bad, can CCS car owners band together and do something?

First of all, almost EVERYONE on this forum seems to forget: the EA access for Lucid is JUST A PROMOTION. Lucid says that everywhere: EA PROMOTION. While owners can claim otherwise, I bet Lucid was careful enough that in its promotional use of getting EA, this was not made consideration for buying the car (like OTA updates etc) My company can put out a promotion to our buyers for free dinners In Lahaina, but there is no recourse if the promotion has no value since the terrible tragedy of it burning down. So, no i do not think CCS owners have recouse for getting a less than perfect promotion. Sad to say, it is what it is. I am sure Lucid hoped for better - but no way tiny Lucid had any pull over EA. Lucid HOPED it was giving a cool bene to us, perhaps paying a few cents per KWH and guarantying EA some cash flow.

Second, I think you are correct - only game in town. Who the hell else could Lucid offer for such a promotion across the US?

Lastly, contracts do not make bad/faulty companies good. Contracts only document the intentions of the parties. The worlds best contract with a shitty company is still shitty and worthless. A great contract with a bad company only buys a lawsuit - and still you get none of the widgets you wanted/needed in the first place. I have agreed to many one-sided contracts full of disclaimers with Siemens and On and Hubbell because of the integrity of those companies. No contact will make Siemens or Hubbell any better or worse.

So here, we have an allegedly gratuitous promotion with EA. No idea of the value.... YMMV.

 

[Daniel2022AT]

Lucid’s and probably any vehicle will not pull anything close to max power at 50% SOC or above. Try starting at 15-20% SOC and you will see significantly better results in my experience. At 50% SOC the vehicle manages the power draw downward for battery health.

 

[Worldwide Beagle]

Lucid’s and probably any vehicle will not pull anything close to max power at 50% SOC or above. Try starting at 15-20% SOC and you will see significantly better results in my experience. At 50% SOC the vehicle manages the power draw downward for battery health.

Still a newbie, that's what I thought. Thanks

 

[DeaneG]

Lucid’s and probably any vehicle will not pull anything close to max power at 50% SOC or above. Try starting at 15-20% SOC and you will see significantly better results in my experience. At 50% SOC the vehicle manages the power draw downward for battery health.

On a 300+kW charging station, the Air (Dream Edition at least) holds about 300kW until 15% SOC, then declines linearly to 50kW at 90%.

 

[borski]

They let you take your Lucid into the laundromat? How many quarters for a 100 miles?

Dno, but “hey can I give you 50 bucks to unplug a dryer for a few hours” tends to work pretty well. And as long as there is a street spot or parking spot nearby, the cable should reach.

So a genuine question: what would be the "legal" expectation for "acceptable" performance by EA if this parameter is not spelled out in the contract with Lucid?

Doesn’t matter, tbh, as it’s easy enough to blame on emergent circumstances; more cars, more heat, an increase in power costs, a pandemic (which might trigger a force majeure clause anyway), etc.

Force majeure clauses provide a mechanism by which a party can claim relief from its obligations under a contract due to the presence of circumstances beyond the contracting parties' control. Most force majeure clauses define the circumstances beyond the contracting parties' control that can render the performance of the contract impossible, and then provide for the suspension, deferral and/or release of the obligation to perform the contract based on that event.

After COVID-19, *most* contracts now include pandemic as a named exclusion, but many used to anyway.

IANAL, etc.

First of all, almost EVERYONE on this forum seems to forget: the EA access for Lucid is JUST A PROMOTION. Lucid says that everywhere: EA PROMOTION. While owners can claim otherwise, I bet Lucid was careful enough that in its promotional use of getting EA, this was not made consideration for buying the car (like OTA updates etc) My company can put out a promotion to our buyers for free dinners In Lahaina, but there is no recourse if the promotion has no value since the terrible tragedy of it burning down.

 

[Babyrocko1908]

First of all, almost EVERYONE on this forum seems to forget: the EA access for Lucid is JUST A PROMOTION. Lucid says that everywhere: EA PROMOTION. While owners can claim otherwise, I bet Lucid was careful enough that in its promotional use of getting EA, this was not made consideration for buying the car (like OTA updates etc) My company can put out a promotion to our buyers for free dinners In Lahaina, but there is no recourse if the promotion has no value since the terrible tragedy of it burning down. So, no i do not think CCS owners have recouse for getting a less than perfect promotion. Sad to say, it is what it is. I am sure Lucid hoped for better - but no way tiny Lucid had any pull over EA. Lucid HOPED it was giving a cool bene to us, perhaps paying a few cents per KWH and guarantying EA some cash flow.

Second, I think you are correct - only game in town. Who the hell else could Lucid offer for such a promotion across the US?

Lastly, contracts do not make bad/faulty companies good. Contracts only document the intentions of the parties. The worlds best contract with a shitty company is still shitty and worthless. A great contract with a bad company only buys a lawsuit - and still you get none of the widgets you wanted/needed in the first place. I have agreed to many one-sided contracts full of disclaimers with Siemens and On and Hubbell because of the integrity of those companies. No contact will make Siemens or Hubbell any better or worse.

So here, we have an allegedly gratuitous promotion with EA. No idea of the value.... YMMV.

@Worldwide Beagle Two things. First, reading how you break down Contract Law is truly a thing of beauty and a pleasure to read. Each and every time.

Second, did you really just remind me of those Gotdamned widgets?

 

[Worldwide Beagle]

Force majeure clauses provide a mechanism by which a party can claim relief from its obligations under a contract due to the presence of circumstances beyond the contracting parties' control. Most force majeure clauses define the circumstances beyond the contracting parties' control that can render the performance of the contract impossible, and then provide for the suspension, deferral and/or release of the obligation to perform the contract based on that event.

@borski shame on you for spoiling my mental picture you driving your Lucid into the laundromat. Did someone post it here or I saw it in a newsfeed, where someone with a Tesla near a remote state park was forced to plug it into a 30 or 50amp plug set up by the the local electric coop, in a field, for a weekend music festival. It was a great story and happy ending. Where there is a will, ...

MOREOVER @borski - did you, as mod, install spyware on the computer? I ask because for the past month, I have been dealing for days on end with a force majeure clause for a luxury resort hotel that has to cancel or modify wedding event contracts. Its due to the hotel owner, without consulting the management group, electing to close the hotel in the fall for required and necessary major system renovation. I have spent more time on this ancient property principle this month than in my decades since law school. That said, each and every force majeure clause is written VERY differently. While the principle is the same, the wording of each contract is determinative and often VERY VERY different, i.e. what "greater forces" did the parties contemplate or not.

 

[Worldwide Beagle]

@Worldwide Beagle Two things. First, reading how you break down Contract Law is truly a thing of beauty and a pleasure to read. Each and every time.

Second, did you really just remind me of those Gotdamned widgets?

@Babyrocko1908 You are too kind.

You may appreciate this. I am dealing with several claimed breach of contact cases, but the opposing attorneys fail to (or choose not to) understand that even if there was a breach, their clients only get actual provable damages, and not consequential damages or worse, claims of tort - pain and suffering. That's why I love contract law - it was made to facilitate business not fix the wrongs of the world.

Come on, did you really forget about Widgets? Next you will tell me you do not remember Black Acre and White Acre