Charger FAQ/Explanation

[borski]

Does the Lucid home charger allow V2H and it's just not available yet? (future update)
Or will it be a totally separate box/setup?

We don’t know for sure, but my 99% bet is you’ll need an additional transfer switch, at minimum, plus the future software updates.

 

[DeaneG]

Thanks! A few more if you don't mind:
1. If I install a NEMA 14-50 outlet with no home charger unit, does this require a GFCI breaker?
2. Last year I put a heater in my garage. For this, an electrician installed a new breaker in the electrical panel in my basement and ran a 240V conduit from the panel to my garage. Can I take advantage of that conduit or do I need a completely separate installation for my EV charging needs?
3. If I want to future proof my installation to allow V2H charging in the futu re, what additional work would be required?
4. Will V2H charging provide power for my entire home, or just select items (refrigerator, etc?)

1. Depends where you live. GFCI is required on all 120V and 240V garage outlets by the 2020 version of the national electric code, but not all localities have adopted it yet.

 

[emoylv]

Thanks! A few more if you don't mind:
1. If I install a NEMA 14-50 outlet with no home charger unit, does this require a GFCI breaker?
2. Last year I put a heater in my garage. For this, an electrician installed a new breaker in the electrical panel in my basement and ran a 240V conduit from the panel to my garage. Can I take advantage of that conduit or do I need a completely separate installation for my EV charging needs?
3. If I want to future proof my installation to allow V2H charging in the future, what additional work would be required?
4. Will V2H charging provide power for my entire home, or just select items (refrigerator, etc?)

For #2, you will need to answer the following questions:
1. What is the size/material of the conduit? Here is a link to a conduit fill table. That will determine how many wires you can safely put in it. http://www.elliottelectric.com/Stat...nces/ElectricalTables/Conduit_Fill_Table.aspx
2. Are you planning to hardwire or install 14-50 or 6-50 receptacle? The receptacle takes up a lot of room in the box. If it were me, I would hardwire. For 48A EVSE, you'll need a 60A breaker, 2 #6 conductors and ground. For 40A EVSE, you'll need 2 #8 conductors and ground. Both scenarios assume you are running THW or equivalent COPPER wire in conduit. If you're lucky, your conduit can accommodate the additional conductors.

 

[Bill55]

1. Depends where you live. GFCI is required on all 120V and 240V garage outlets by the 2020 version of the national electric code, but not all localities have adopted it yet.

GFCI protection is not required for single-phase or three-phase, 240-volt, 30- or 50-ampere receptacles, or similar. During the 2020 NEC code cycle it was substantiated that unintended tripping of GFCI protective devices often creates significant safety issues.

 

[Bill55]

We don’t know for sure, but my 99% bet is you’ll need an additional transfer switch, at minimum, plus the future software updates.

We do know. From Lucid. “Housed in a sleek, compact form that complements any style of decor, the Lucid Connected Home Charging Station is capable of charging up to 80 miles of range per hour (80 amps, 240 volts). It’s built to perform indoors or outdoors through all seasons, and comes with a generous 24-foot cable. Best of all, it promises to be better in the future, with software updates that will enable bi-directional charging — meaning you can use your car to power your house (additional hardware needed).”

 

[DeaneG]

GFCI protection is not required for single-phase or three-phase, 240-volt, 30- or 50-ampere receptacles, or similar. During the 2020 NEC code cycle it was substantiated that unintended tripping of GFCI protective devices often creates significant safety issues.

Thanks, I hadn't heard of the change. Is there any place it can be found online?

 

[Bill55]

Thanks, I hadn't heard of the change. Is there any place it can be found online?

They like to sell code books so they stay on top of policing when posted online for free. Sometimes a city that adopts the code will have available online.

 

[DJL]

Thanks, I hadn't heard of the change. Is there any place it can be found online?

I am not an electrician and, in fact, way back in my college days, Electrical Engineering 301 was my least favorite course. With that said, let me jump into this controversy by sharing this attachment which addresses this issue. It was put out by the MN Dept of Labor and Industry just a couple of months ago.

 

[Bill55]

I am not an electrician and, in fact, way back in my college days, Electrical Engineering 301 was my least favorite course. With that said, let me jump into this controversy by sharing this attachment which addresses this issue. It was put out by the MN Dept of Labor and Industry just a couple of months ago.

The most accurate answer is make sure your electrician pulls a permit and have inspected by your local jurisdiction if you want to ensure you are compliant with the code as adopted and interpreted by the authority having jurisdiction (AHJ). With that said, as long as you are not getting nusaince trips, for minor cost why not have GFCI protection. EV chargers have a nice ramp to full power so nuisance trips shouldn't be a problem.

 

[DeaneG]

FWIW for my own curiosity I checked the 2023 NEC; it has substantially the same language as the 2020 NEC requiring GFCI for every receptacle in a garage. There was discussion around the 2020 NEC about the new requirement for GFCI for HVAC units. It was determined that there were probably more deaths from heat-related factors due to GFCI nuisance tripping on HVAC than from people being electrocuted. So the requirement for GFCI for HVAC was being reassessed.

I've had a couple EVSEs on a 14-50 outlet at my home but won't do it again. Hardwiring is comparable in labor and materials and IMO much safer. Plus, if you can charge at 48 to 80 amps instead of 40, why not. Our Chargepoint Home Flex is hardwired on our original 40A circuit from 2011 Leaf days. Our new AGT can charge just fine from this, but it's tedious.

 

[Bel]

FWIW for my own curiosity I checked the 2023 NEC; it has substantially the same language as the 2020 NEC requiring GFCI for every receptacle in a garage. There was discussion around the 2020 NEC about the new requirement for GFCI for HVAC units. It was determined that there were probably more deaths from heat-related factors due to GFCI nuisance tripping on HVAC than from people being electrocuted. So the requirement for GFCI for HVAC was being reassessed.

I've had a couple EVSEs on a 14-50 outlet at my home but won't do it again. Hardwiring is comparable in labor and materials and IMO much safer. Plus, if you can charge at 48 to 80 amps instead of 40, why not. Our Chargepoint Home Flex is hardwired on our original 40A circuit from 2011 Leaf days. Our new AGT can charge just fine from this, but it's tedious.

I am not an electrician and, in fact, way back in my college days, Electrical Engineering 301 was my least favorite course. With that said, let me jump into this controversy by sharing this attachment which addresses this issue. It was put out by the MN Dept of Labor and Industry just a couple of months ago.

It's in 210.8(B)(7) in 2023 and similary in 2020. For garages, and the 6-50 and 14-50 amp receptacles (typically used in garages), personel-protection gfci is required (i simplified my wording of the code to minize my typing). Its better to use a charger that doesnt nusence trip, but if it does, its not designed for use in typical code complient installations using recetacle to begin with.

Im installing a charge point flex home charger and hardwired and with 70 amp cb, so i can use all the full 50 amps of the charger. Time will tell if the charger will hold up over time running at 100%. However ive mounted the charger on 1.5 " stand-offs from the wall for better cooling and my garage seldom gets into the 80s even in the summer.

 

[DeaneG]

Im installing a charge point flex home charger and hardwired and with 70 amp cb, so i can use all the full 50 amps of the charger.

Nice setup! Love that unit's ease of use. The self-aligning swivel holster seems to almost pull the charging plug back in when you're done.

 

[Adnillien]

2. It will need to be an additional conductor. If the conduit is large enough to pull another wire you could use. If it was sized for just one wire then no.

Be aware that running more than three conductors in the same conduit will require additional de-rating of how much current the wire can carry.

 

[Volund]

1. The 50 amp breaker will not be gfci
2. It will need to be an additional conductor. If the conduit is large enough to pull another wire you could use. If it was sized for just one wire then no.
3. You need a 100amp circuit for V2H
4. It will be maxed at 19.2kW.

Can you explain number #4 a bit more, so if it's maxed at 19.2kW, that's probably able to power a few things for like a few hours right? And probably a house for maybe 30 minutes or an hour I'm assuming. But I don't understand the numbers in relation here.


So if I use 200 kWh in a month for my home.
Then does that mean the Lucid could power the home for like 10% of my home usage basically?

I'm probably dead wrong, just trying to understand

 

[Negan1000]

Can you explain number #4 a bit more, so if it's maxed at 19.2kW, that's probably able to power a few things for like a few hours right? And probably a house for maybe 30 minutes or an hour I'm assuming. But I don't understand the numbers in relation here.


So if I use 200 kWh in a month for my home.
Then does that mean the Lucid could power the home for like 10% of my home usage basically?

I'm probably dead wrong, just trying to understand

When you go to bidirectional charging to backup your house for power failures, you will need more equipment like transfer switch and sensor/breakers to shut off your high power items like HVAC. The Lucid battery will not power all your home devices/circuits. Typically for battery backups you select the items that can be powered by the battery and shut of all the others ie HVAC, ovens, etc. The additional sensors/breakers have to recognize the grid power failure, turn off power to High power items. The transfer switch connects the Lucid battery to the grid during peak power periods (ie 4 -9 PM) to save on your home electrical cost. You charge your battery during non-peak (low cost) periods. During grid power outage, the transfer switch senses battery is connected and isolates the grid from the house and connects your battery to the critical items ( medical devices, refrigerator, TV, internet) during the power outage. All this is suppose to be done automatically once someone builds all the required devices. This is being done on some limited trials. It could be more generally available in 1 - 2 yrs?

 

[DeaneG]

Can you explain number #4 a bit more, so if it's maxed at 19.2kW, that's probably able to power a few things for like a few hours right? And probably a house for maybe 30 minutes or an hour I'm assuming. But I don't understand the numbers in relation here.

So if I use 200 kWh in a month for my home.
Then does that mean the Lucid could power the home for like 10% of my home usage basically?

I'm probably dead wrong, just trying to understand

There are two different things here to think about: power (kW), and energy, which is the running sum of power delivered over an amount of time (kWh).

If you look at your electric meter, it'll tell you how much power (kW) your home is consuming at that point in time. There's also a kWh counter which shows how much energy you've used since the meter was installed. Typically your home might be consuming 1-5 kW of power at any point in time, depending on if an oven is preheating, EV charging, AC or heat pump running, etc. The Air will be able to supply a maximum of 19kW of power back to your home. This should be plenty of power for most homes.

The second part is how long the Air could supply power to your home. The Air has a battery energy capacity of about 110 kWh. If your home uses say 220kWh of energy per month, then the Air could power your home for half a month, if it started fully charged (100%) and you operated your home with it until it was fully depleted to 0%.

 

[Golfhack]

There are two different things here to think about: power (kW), and energy, which is the running sum of power delivered over an amount of time (kWh).

If you look at your electric meter, it'll tell you how much power (kW) your home is consuming at that point in time. There's also a kWh counter which shows how much energy you've used since the meter was installed. Typically your home might be consuming 1-5 kW of power at any point in time, depending on if an oven is preheating, EV charging, AC or heat pump running, etc. The Air will be able to supply a maximum of 19kW of power back to your home. This should be plenty of power for most homes.

The second part is how long the Air could supply power to your home. The Air has a battery energy capacity of about 110 kWh. If your home uses say 220kWh of energy per month, then the Air could power your home for half a month, if it started fully charged (100%) and you operated your home with it until it was fully depleted to 0%.

Very helpful. Thanks. I looked at my electric bill and I see that I used between 1,400 and 2,800 kWh per month over the last few months (I have a large home and the high bills were in the summer months). If I divide 2,800 kWh by 30 days and 24 hrs, I get an average of 93 kWh/day and 3.89 kWh/hr so I assume the Air supplying 19.6 kW would easily cover this (even if at peak times I'm four times the average). With a capacity of 110kWh, the Air should be able to provide power for my entire house for a little over one day during peak use. Is this correct?

 

[Bill55]

Can you explain number #4 a bit more, so if it's maxed at 19.2kW, that's probably able to power a few things for like a few hours right? And probably a house for maybe 30 minutes or an hour I'm assuming. But I don't understand the numbers in relation here.


So if I use 200 kWh in a month for my home.
Then does that mean the Lucid could power the home for like 10% of my home usage basically?

I'm probably dead wrong, just trying to understand

As a rough example. 118kWh battery at 80% you have 94kWh in the battery. If you leave a 10kWh reserve you have 84 kWhs of energy to use. In your example of using 200kWh in a month. 84 / (200/30) = ~12 days. The caveat is you can not pull more than 19.2 kW at once. 80 amps. Many houses have 200 amp services. If you are trying to run Air conditioner, a pool pump, a refrigerator, an electric oven / stove, and a dryer all at once you will exceed the max AC power the onboard inverter can supply. If you live in Phoenix and have multiple HVAC zones you’ll have to limit what you run. 80kWh will run the fridge, lighting, TV, and blower motor for gas heat for a long time. From there you have choices to make.
If you run that AC compressor. You’re not going to run it for very long.

 

[Bill55]

Very helpful. Thanks. I looked at my electric bill and I see that I used between 1,400 and 2,800 kWh per month over the last few months (I have a large home and the high bills were in the summer months). If I divide 2,800 kWh by 30 days and 24 hrs, I get an average of 93 kWh/day and 3.89 kWh/hr so I assume the Air supplying 19.6 kW would easily cover this (even if at peak times I'm four times the average). With a capacity of 110kWh, the Air should be able to provide power for my entire house for a little over one day during peak use. Is this correct?

Some electric companies have your peak use in an hour. That would answer the question. Your peak use is likely to be much higher than the average.

 

[DeaneG]

Very helpful. Thanks. I looked at my electric bill and I see that I used between 1,400 and 2,800 kWh per month over the last few months (I have a large home and the high bills were in the summer months). If I divide 2,800 kWh by 30 days and 24 hrs, I get an average of 93 kWh/day and 3.89 kWh/hr so I assume the Air supplying 19.6 kW would easily cover this (even if at peak times I'm four times the average). With a capacity of 110kWh, the Air should be able to provide power for my entire house for a little over one day during peak use. Is this correct?

Like @Bill55 said, when the power goes out, you'll have choices to make. Is the outage likely to be short? If so, maybe go ahead and run one A/C unit for a bit if it's very hot outside. We never know how long our outages will be, so for us it's fridge, freezer, some lights, and maybe the microwave. Should be able to run the house from the Air for several days in that manner. Many backup solutions set up a subpanel of essential loads, and only power that during an outage. The rest of the home's loads are left unpowered. We don't know yet what Lucid's V2H solution will recommend.