Tesla Superchargers to open to all EVs in California

[HC_79]

Other brands have committed to building their own 350kW NACS stations. NACS is now a public SAE J3400 standard, so even when Tesla goes down, the SAE still survives.

it was never about the plug, it was about the reliability. EA switching to NACS plugs won’t make it more reliable than it is today. The reason automakers caved and switched the plug was to get access to a reliable network.

If EA, EVGo etc. actually built a reliable CCS network we would never have been in this mess we are today.

 

[hmp10]

I haven’t read much about this, but an I wrong in assuming there will be new hires for the Tesla SC group? I can’t begin to imagine they’ll abandon their efforts, it will be too much of a money maker. I think too much is being read into this.

There is some speculation that Musk may have to rebuild the team in some form. The question is who in that segment of the industry would want to work there at this point. And who's going to do all the footwork for hiring? He just fired the head of HR, too.

 

[hmp10]

it was never about the plug, it was about the reliability. EA switching to NACS plugs won’t make it more reliable than it is today. The reason automakers caved and switched the plug was to get access to a reliable network.

If EA, EVGo etc. actually built a reliable CCS network we would never have been in this mess we are today.

That's all true, but there would have been benefits to EV adoption if the U.S. went to a unified charging standard.

Can you imagine what it would be like if an ICE owner had to decide which car to buy based on which brands of filling stations it could use? I ran into something similar when I bought my first Audi R8 without realizing it needed to run only on Top Tier certified fuel for its detergent formulation, something not available with every brand. Before starting a road trip, I used to have to check the Top Tier website to see which brands were currently certified. And it was counter-intuitive. Some discount brands were certified, and some premium brands -- such as even Mobil for a while -- were not. By the time I got my third R8, Top Tier fuels were becoming more available, finally even landing at Costco pumps, and the issue finally receded.

Writ small, it was a bit like heading out on a road trip today with an EV. Okay, in our Tesla we can only use Superchargers. In our Lucid, we can't use Superchargers. But will EA be working? Will usage and outage reports be accurate? Will I have a phone signal if I have to download an app and open an account to use another charger brand? (Don't laugh. There are lots of dead cell spots along highways as our Lucid's AT&T connection constantly reminds us.)

 

[borski]

I haven’t read much about this, but an I wrong in assuming there will be new hires for the Tesla SC group? I can’t begin to imagine they’ll abandon their efforts, it will be too much of a money maker. I think too much is being read into this.

Sure, but:
1) People will have to want to work there, and,
2) All of the institutional knowledge about what was working well, where the technical debt and gremlins were, what they had tried that didn’t work well, and so on, is gone.

So, sure, he’s going to try and rebuild a skunkworks team so that he can get his pay package and remain the only one the company has that it can rely on as he fires everyone else worth their salt.

But it’s going to get WAY worse before it gets any better. The board needs to fire Elon before it gets worse, let him focus on X and SpaceX and his other various distractions (some worthwhile and others not) and hire a real, focused CEO, to deal with the real problems Tesla has today.

Of course, they’re not going to do that, so we instead will get to watch him drive it into the ground with great fervor.

That’s my prediction. You may think I’m wrong. I know it’s speculation.

Time will tell, and bookmark this comment. We’ll see which one of us ends up right.

 

[Lucken]

Sure, but:
1) People will have to want to work there, and,
2) All of the institutional knowledge about what was working well, where the technical debt and gremlins were, what they had tried that didn’t work well, and so on, is gone.

So, sure, he’s going to try and rebuild a skunkworks team so that he can get his pay package and remain the only one the company has that it can rely on as he fires everyone else worth their salt.

But it’s going to get WAY worse before it gets any better. The board needs to fire Elon before it gets worse, let him focus on X and SpaceX and his other various distractions (some worthwhile and others not) and hire a real, focused CEO, to deal with the real problems Tesla has today.

Of course, they’re not going to do that, so we instead will get to watch him drive it into the ground with great fervor.

That’s my prediction. You may think I’m wrong. I know it’s speculation.

Time will tell, and bookmark this comment. We’ll see which one of us ends up right.

I’m not even sure where we disagree, but OK.

However, regarding point 2, it’s hard to believe that there was no documentation of what worked well, what didn’t, the gremlins etc. I can’t imagine a new team would have to start from ground zero.

If all that knowledge rested only within the craniums of those unfortunate employees who lost their job and there was no requirement for documentation, then Tesla is in more trouble than either one of us thinks.

 

[no gas]

I’m not even sure where we disagree, but OK.

However, regarding point 2, it’s hard to believe that there was no documentation of what worked well, what didn’t, the gremlins etc. I can’t imagine a new team would have to start from ground zero.

If all that knowledge rested only within the craniums of those unfortunate employees who lost their job and there was no requirement for documentation, then Tesla is in more trouble than either one of us thinks.

Even if Musk doubled my pay, I wouldn’t work for him, next day, I might get fired. Prefer a stable job.

 

[ColonelBadger]

I’m not even sure where we disagree, but OK.

However, regarding point 2, it’s hard to believe that there was no documentation of what worked well, what didn’t, the gremlins etc. I can’t imagine a new team would have to start from ground zero.

If all that knowledge rested only within the craniums of those unfortunate employees who lost their job and there was no requirement for documentation, then Tesla is in more trouble than either one of us thinks.

I doubt there's much documentation. I'm sure they tried. But Tesla was/is a startup, they're moving incredibly quickly with a lot of pressure from above (Musk). My guess is a lot of that knowledge was in peoples heads, that walked out the door.

 

[Lucken]

I doubt there's much documentation. I'm sure they tried. But Tesla was/is a startup, they're moving incredibly quickly with a lot of pressure from above (Musk). My guess is a lot of that knowledge was in peoples heads, that walked out the door.

If so, that’s a huge blunder. There should always be documentation of things that worked, things that didn’t and paths that showed promise. It’s just hard to believe that everyone was just winging it.

 

[ColonelBadger]

I doubt they're winging it and I'm sure they have some documentation, but It was probably enough to bring someone new on the team up to speed with the input from the rest of the incumbent team. I doubt they have a fully documented process/technical blueprints/technical runbooks to build a brand new team from scratch.

 

[joec]

The thing about documentation is that it’s usually written with the idea there would be someone still around to walk you through it.

Read the docs. Ask questions of the experts who wrote the docs.

When you fire all the authors of the docs, you’re slowing down the process of bringing people onboard significantly. And that’s assuming the docs are actually well written and thorough.

 

[ColonelBadger]

The thing about documentation is that it’s usually written with the idea there would be someone still around to walk you through it.

Read the docs. Ask questions of the experts who wrote the docs.

When you fire all the authors of the docs, you’re slowing down the process of bringing people onboard significantly. And that’s assuming the docs are actually well written and thorough.

Exactly !!!!! I'm sure they never believed the entire team would be gone including all the institutional knowledge.

 

[hmp10]

I doubt there's much documentation. I'm sure they tried. But Tesla was/is a startup, they're moving incredibly quickly with a lot of pressure from above (Musk). My guess is a lot of that knowledge was in peoples heads, that walked out the door.

Yes, that is always the case in any organization, even mature ones.

My first job in industry was at a major manufacturer's Gatling gun facility in Burlington, Vermont that produced ship- and plane-mounted guns for the U.S. military and its allies. The precision of those guns came from state-of-the-art machinery run by highly-trained and experienced tool & diemakers who were at the top tier of machinists. It was all supported by volumes of manufacturing engineering planning sheets and work documentation. The U.S. government actually owned those data packages and would periodically send them out to other manufacturers to test their abilities as backup suppliers. No other company was ever able to build a Gatling gun that didn't jam in testing conditions from that work planning and documentation.

The missing ingredient always turned out to be the experience, memory, and personal work-arounds of every tool & die maker who honed his craft making those guns and turned to his colleagues for their own insights when needed.

Musk thinks of organizations as robots. In many ways, his thinking goes back to the days of Taylorism, a discipline that attracted Henry Ford and which viewed the worker as a fungible, almost mechanical cog in a production operation where the thinking lay not with the worker, but with the work planner.

Successful organizations are not robots that can be programmed to perform by an all-seeing taskmaster. They are assemblages of humans who get work done by a series of constant observations, adjustments, adaptations, often augmented by forming relationships with others in and out of the work group. Some things they might write down. Many they don't and never will.

 

[borski]

Some things they might write down. Many they don't and never will.

To wit: https://www.businessinsider.com/tes...ut-complaints-in-writing-whistleblower-2023-5

 

[borski]

Yes, that is always the case in any organization, even mature ones.

My first job in industry was at a major manufacturer's Gatling gun facility in Burlington, Vermont that produced ship- and plane-mounted guns for the U.S. military and its allies. The precision of those guns came from state-of-the-art machinery run by highly-trained and experienced tool & diemakers who were at the top tier of machinists. It was all supported by volumes of manufacturing engineering planning sheets and work documentation. The U.S. government actually owned those data packages and would periodically send them out to other manufacturers to test their abilities as backup suppliers. No other company was ever able to build a Gatling gun that didn't jam in testing conditions from that work planning and documentation.

The missing ingredient always turned out to be the experience, memory, and personal work-arounds of every tool & die maker who honed his craft making those guns and turned to his colleagues for their own insights when needed.

Musk thinks of organizations as robots. In many ways, his thinking goes back to the days of Taylorism, a discipline that attracted Henry Ford and which viewed the worker as a fungible, almost mechanical cog in a production operation where the thinking lay not with the worker, but with the work planner.

Successful organizations are not robots that can be programmed to perform by an all-seeing taskmaster. They are assemblages of humans who get work done by a series of constant observations, adjustments, adaptations, often augmented by forming relationships with others in and out of the work group. Some things they might write down. Many they don't and never will.

It’s important to note that many remote-first companies (whether you agree with the concept or not) are going to have far superior documentation than in-office companies, by necessity. With time zone differences and distance, documentation tends to get better as it becomes much more important for an asynchronous work style.

Tesla was and is very much an in-person in-the-office company, so they don’t have that benefit either.

 

[idiot900]

Musk thinks of organizations as robots. In many ways, his thinking goes back to the days of Taylorism, a discipline that attracted Henry Ford and which viewed the worker as a fungible, almost mechanical cog in a production operation where the thinking lay not with the worker, but with the work planner.

I've always held the view that managers who think this way are themselves fungible cogs, because it isn't a very intellectually demanding management methodology.

 

[hmp10]

To wit: https://www.businessinsider.com/tes...ut-complaints-in-writing-whistleblower-2023-5

Musk is increasingly obsessed with the idea that no regulatory authority should have any window into a company's operation for any reason. This is exactly the kind of policy one would expect from such a leader. He'll mostly get by with it in the U.S. Who knows, Abbott may even help him put up the barbed wire at Texas HQ. But it's going to be another kettle of fish for Tesla entirely in Europe and Asia.

 

[RM-S8]

Musk thinks of organizations as robots. In many ways, his thinking goes back to the days of Taylorism, a discipline that attracted Henry Ford and which viewed the worker as a fungible, almost mechanical cog in a production operation where the thinking lay not with the worker, but with the work planner.

I know, different era, different times. But, well, look where Ford is right now.
(And his outrageous ideas).

 

[hmp10]

I know, different era, different times. But, well, look where Ford is right now.
(And his outrageous ideas).

It's a very complicated story, with ups and downs over the decades. Taylorism played a role in bringing us the modern assembly line. It's clumsy and too-zealous application also played a big role in unionizing the automotive industry, something that almost brought the industry to its knees in the latter half of the century.

There are actually many parallels between Musk and Ford. Both garnered popular credit as sole creators of key developments that had their origins with others -- Ford for the assembly line and Musk for developing practical EVs. Both did so, not by inventing anything themselves, but by leveraging the work of others -- Ford for applying Taylorism to taking Ransom Old's assembly line approach to the next level, and Musk for applying batteries developed for other purposes to automobiles (with the help of Lotus' advanced engineering organization). Both became the richest industrial magnates of their times. Both pushed vertical integration to extremes from which they had to back away. Both espoused anti-semitism and fancied themselves experts in foreign policy. Both leaned toward support of autocratic regimes (Ford early on with Naziism, Musk with using Starlink to rein in Ukraine's military reach against Russia). Both bought media companies in order to try to control the narrative about their views and their companies (with Ford buying the "Dearborn Independent" and Musk buying Twitter).

Ford died. Musk's fate remains to be seen.

 

[RM-S8]

Ford died. Musk's fate remains to be seen.

Quite a few points that I disagree with.
But, that would go into a political category, which has no place on this forum.
Btw, Ford died? Not sure what you meant. All of us will. Ford's company is doing quite well.

 

[hmp10]

Quite a few points that I disagree with.

All of the points I made are worth a far more nuanced examination than I can or should give here, and there's certainly plenty of room to disagree.

Nevertheless, for a long time there has been a lot in the broad strokes about both men that has brought forth ruminations about their similarities and just how far they can be drawn.

Btw, Ford died? Not sure what you meant. All of us will. Ford's company is doing quite well.

I meant Henry Ford turned out to be mortal and that the jury in some quarters still seems to be out on Musk. It was written with tongue firmly in cheek.