NACS Megathread

[quantum]

I am not contesting that Lucid should eventually switch to NACS. The connector is much smaller, lighter, and aesthetically better, all of which are important for first time EV buyers. However, Lucid should not be announcing this now to cannibalize their car's sales and also to figure out if it is really 1000v like promised. If it is, then by all means Lucid can announce in 2024 for 2025 launch date. Now however, all we are doing is adding nothing and taking away all CCS options, considering that HV SC's will have CCS as well.

The connecter and cable need to be beefed up so they dont melt if going to higher voltages. Its not as simple as you think.

 

[quantum]

After reading numerous posts, I got a sense that people who wants Lucid to adopt NACS also imply that he/she wants to use Tesla Super Charger. I have to say be careful what you are asking for. As more OEMs adopt NACS, Tesla SC network will dominate the market and thus put most EVSE companies out of business. Eventually, Tesla SC will "monopolized" the EVSE market. They could increase kW/Hr rate, tack on miscellaneous fees just to use their network. We'll then complaining about service, cost and wonder why there isn't competition in the EVSE space. We see this with mobile service provider, internet service provider, US airlines, on and on.

Agree, we need competition. Jumping ship to NACS is a kneejerk lazy decision. Better to add resources to improve CCS which is also used in other countries. Having manufacturers to build a US version with NACS and a CCS version for Europe etc is unnecessary and wasting money/resources. Lucid holding out shows you they have a longterm plan. They should only commit if the NACS widely supports 700-900V , it doesn't.

 

[Adnillien]

The connecter and cable need to be beefed up so they dont melt if going to higher voltages. Its not as simple as you think.

It is current that causes heat, not voltage. Current decreases with higher voltage at a constant power. For 1000V, the dielectric strength has to withstand 1000V and the surface distance between contacts has to be far enough not to breakdown the air along the surface of the plug. Melting is not the concern.

 

[Bill55]

Agree, we need competition. Jumping ship to NACS is a kneejerk lazy decision. Better to add resources to improve CCS which is also used in other countries. Having manufacturers to build a US version with NACS and a CCS version for Europe etc is unnecessary and wasting money/resources. Lucid holding out shows you they have a longterm plan. They should only commit if the NACS widely supports 700-900V , it doesn't.

NACS will be a standard. The SAE Hybrid - EV committee is expected to release standard J3400 by the end of the year. The standard is widely expected to include 1000v charging.
CCS1 is primarily North America. Europe uses CCS2 which has a different plug than CCS1.
There will of course be CCS plugs for many years to come, but in USA the % of EVs with CCS will be an ever shrinking % as no Teslas will have it and majority of Automakers have committed to NACS.
"Skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been."

 

[BACamster]

So I was in full agreement of this recently.

Having the 50 kw is better than nothing, if Lucid does announce the change to NACS, wouldn't that just mean we have an additional place to charge? The CCS chargers will still all work, but now we can go to NACS with an adapter right? That's what I assume.

You just proved the point. If OEMs adopts NACS, people will use Tesla SC by default simply because it is the most reliable level 3 EVSE network. Even if EA, Chargepoint, EVGo and other company have NACS connector at their stalls, people will gravitate to use Tesla SC instead for reliability, capacity and because "Having the 50 kw is better than nothing." If EA, Chargepoint, EVGo and other have fewer and fewer users, they will eventually neither have the incentive nor the funding to upgrade their EVSEs and services. At the same time, Tesla - the energy company - will take the position of people are ok 50 Kw, they will be less likely to offer anything higher than 50 kw after all "having the 50 kw is better than nothing." Thus the snowball effect that eventually we will end up with just a few EVSE providers.

 

[Rob Stark]

both CCS and CHADeMO are here to stay.

CHAdeMO will be gone in North America within 5 years, except for CA where it still might be required by law for charger station subsidies.

CCS will last maybe another dozen years. After a decade or so of 98% plus of new BEVs being sold with NACS then CCS will be gone.

 

[xponents]

CHAdeMO will be gone in North America within 5 years, except for CA where it still might be required by law for charger station subsidies.

CCS will last maybe another dozen years. After a decade or so of 98% plus of new BEVs being sold with NACS then CCS will be gone.

I agree. I do not know why chademo even exists NOW.

 

[Rob Stark]

Better to add resources to improve CCS which is also used in other countries.

CCS1 is used in US, Canada, Mexico and South Korea.

After US and Canada switch so will Mexico and South Korea.

Dumb to pour resources into CCS1.

European CCS2 is a complexly different kettle of fish. Tesla uses CCS2 in Europe.

 

[quantum]

CHAdeMO will be gone in North America within 5 years, except for CA where it still might be required by law for charger station subsidies.

CCS will last maybe another dozen years. After a decade or so of 98% plus of new BEVs being sold with NACS then CCS will be gone.

Big reason not to go with NACS the whole charging network will be at the mercy of Tesla...who are not the most trustworthy. They dont have support for anything above 500V, why encourage one company. That's very short sighted and like commiting suicide. Develope CCS, let there be competition. Actually, they should have made the CCS 2 standard in US. NACS is not the best charger out there. Tesla just has reliable chargers, doesn't mean its the best PLUG.

 

[quantum]

CHAdeMO will be gone in North America within 5 years, except for CA where it still might be required by law for charger station subsidies.

CCS will last maybe another dozen years. After a decade or so of 98% plus of new BEVs being sold with NACS then CCS will be gone.

Here, read this....automanufactures jumping to NACS are making a shortsighted knee jerk reaction to sell more cars. Bad decision.

Why Tesla's NACS is unlikely to kill CCS

EV charging is changing, but much remains to be settled. A flurry of news over less than a year permanently altered the US landscape for EV charging. Now comes the hard work of making it all happen.

chargedevs.com

 

[par11768]

Agree, we need competition. Jumping ship to NACS is a kneejerk lazy decision. Better to add resources to improve CCS which is also used in other countries. Having manufacturers to build a US version with NACS and a CCS version for Europe etc is unnecessary and wasting money/resources. Lucid holding out shows you they have a longterm plan. They should only commit if the NACS widely supports 700-900V , it doesn't.

Are you really advocating having Lucid as the only company that does not support NACS? As soon as VW or Stellantis adopt, its game over and CCS will disappear in the US over time just like CHAdeMO is now. Who you buy a car with CHAdeMO charging today? Holding out would put Lucid in this same position.

 

[BACamster]

Are you really advocating having Lucid as the only company that does not support NACS? As soon as VW or Stellantis adopt, its game over and CCS will disappear in the US over time just like CHAdeMO is now. Who you buy a car with CHAdeMO charging today? Holding out would put Lucid in this same position.

What miracle does NACS bring to Lucid, VW, Honda, Ford, etc?

 

[koflo]

What miracle does NACS bring to Lucid, VW, Honda, Ford, etc?

A reliable charging network.

 

[Tâm]

What miracle does NACS bring to Lucid, VW, Honda, Ford, etc?

It takes time and money to build a charging network from a scratch.

The miracle is without paying a single cent, they miraculously can access 12,000 Superchargers when they couldn't before.

Simultaneously, owners miraculously can access 12,000 Superchargers too.

Miraculously, they can access more, not fewer.

Right now, there are not enough fast chargers so any additional access is a miracle.

 

[xponents]

A reliable charging network.

Superchargers will have ccs. This is almost invalid.

 

[BACamster]

A reliable charging network.

It takes time and money to build a charging network from a scratch.

The miracle is without paying a single cent, they miraculously can access 12,000 Superchargers when they couldn't before.

Simultaneously, owners miraculously can access 12,000 Superchargers too.

Miraculously, they can access more, not fewer.

Right now, there are not enough fast chargers so any additional access is a miracle.

Sure, people could use 12,000 + Superchargers.

There is always a trade off. Having 50kw charger means that 6 hours road trip from SF Bay Area to Socal turns out to be 8 hours trip - even longer on 3 days weekends due to volume of cars needed to be charged.

What make you think that Tesla couldn't cap the max charge rate for none Tesla cars to a hypothetical limit of 40kw? They did cap a max charge rate for older Model S, especially those with free unlimited use of Supercharger.

 

[Tâm]

Superchargers will have ccs. This is almost invalid.

If everything goes as planned, Nevi only requires 4 CCS1 per station. If you have a deal, you can work with both Magic Docks and the rest of NACS in a station.

For example, if you will stop by Barstow, CA 100 stall Superchargers, instead of only can access to 4 CCS1 Magic Docks out of 100 stalls, with the deal you can access 100 out of 100 stalls.

 

[Tâm]

Sure, people could use 12,000 + Superchargers.

There is always a trade off. Having 50kw charger means that 6 hours road trip from SF Bay Area to Socal turns out to be 8 hours trip - even longer on 3 days weekends due to volume of cars needed to be charged.

What make you think that Tesla couldn't cap the max charge rate for none Tesla cars to a hypothetical limit of 40kw? They did cap a max charge rate for older Model S, especially those with free unlimited use of Supercharger.

Yes. There are pros and cons.

The cons are:
Monopoly: Unlikely because it's a public standard, not a closed secret.

50 kW instead of 350kW for Lucid: True. It is an option if you want it. No one prevents you using the 350kW EA right next door.

Max rate is secretly reduced by Tesla: EA does reduce the rate but publicly, not secretly. Tesla did what Apple did with their very old batteries (discontinued 85kWh packs.) due to fire risks. It's been settled legally. Absolutely no reports of reducing rate for newer batteries.

Those who transferred the free Supercharger rate to their new cars have 250kW. Still free to charge and with faster rate. The reduction in rate is not related to free charge.

 

[borski]

Monopoly: Unlikely because it's a public standard, not a closed secret.

The plug is open, yes. But *superchargers* are not.

Everyone seems to mistake “switching to NACS” as “able to charge at superchargers” but that is not the case. Being able to charge at superchargers leaves you at the mercy of Tesla, which absolutely encourages them to monopolize charging stations given their significant lead.

I’d rather have multiple players than leave all our infrastructure to Tesla, personally.

 

[Tâm]

The plug is open, yes. But *superchargers* are not.

Everyone seems to mistake “switching to NACS” as “able to charge at superchargers” but that is not the case. Being able to charge at superchargers leaves you at the mercy of Tesla, which absolutely encourages them to monopolize charging stations given their significant lead.

I’d rather have multiple players than leave all our infrastructure to Tesla, personally.

Very good clarification.

NACS protocol is public but Tesla Supercharger is private and only Tesla can allow an owner to access their charge.

NACS protocol is not a monopoly because numerous charging companies (ChargePoint, EVgo...) already announced that they already can accommodate NACS cars.

BP (yes, that's oil company) already bought Tesla Supercharger hardware for its own NACS network.

Ford, GM, Rivian... already had plan for their own CCS1 networks but now, with the deal, they will also have NACS plugs.

NACS would become a monopoly if there's only one company uses it. Why let Tesla have the monopoly by us not using it? By joining NACS, we break up the NACS monopoly because even an oil company has already jumped in.

It is true that Tesla Supercharger is a monopoly that's owned by Tesla but while we wait for more Fast DC chargers come on line, it's a good resource to use.

In the capitalist market, expensive and unreliable charging companies will be shunned by consumers whether it's a monopoly or not.

Us, car drivers are consumers but Ford, GM, BP... are also consumers who look for the best deal to support their Fast DC Charging networks too.