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NACS Megathread

koflo said:
Why can’t lucid adopt an onboard converter when they adopt NACS just like taycan? Wouldn’t that enable 150kw charging for anything 400v? Seems like a sensible ask to me and the best of both worlds.
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They likely can… with a full hardware redesign.
 
par11768 said:
What is this quicker, more efficient charginng infrastructure you propose? Should the charging companies all adopt the Lucid standard, a company that sells very few cars? How would you make the networks accountable. The existing Supercharger network is reliable, available in many locations, expanding and will slowly move to higher voltage charging. Lucid needs to sell more cars and can't wait for some theoretical future efficent network to make people comfortable they can travel with their cars. The other manufacturers have recognized this. Again, making an announcement has no downside, but holding out does.
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What is the "Lucid Standard?"
 
Bobby said:
They likely can… with a full hardware redesign.
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150 kW DC to DC converters are neither cheap or light weight. Hence, it will both increase cost and decrease efficiency because of the extra weight. 1000V charging networks make more sense.
 
xponents said:
..and any high voltage superchargers(v4) will have ccs standard along with nacs. I do not understand this debate.
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Makes two of us.
 
xponents said:
..and any high voltage superchargers(v4) will have ccs standard along with nacs. I do not understand this debate.
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It’s not really a debate any longer. We are at the early stages of charger deployment. Settling on one standard so any EV can go to any charger is the most efficient use of resources. Just as I can go to any gas station. As the vast majority of stations and cars move to NACS, stations will stop having the added cost of multiple cables/connectors. New NACS deployments will be at higher voltage and over time older stations will be upgraded. Once VW announces NACS, for all practical purposes, CCS will be a legacy standard. Over time fewer and fewer stations will have CCS cables just as fewer and fewer have CHAdeMO. Those with CCS cars will carry an adapter, just as some of us now carry a “Tesla Tap”. NACS like it or not, will be the standard for the US.
 
Bill55 said:
It’s not really a debate any longer. We are at the early stages of charger deployment. Settling on one standard so any EV can go to any charger is the most efficient use of resources. Just as I can go to any gas station. As the vast majority of stations and cars move to NACS, stations will stop having the added cost of multiple cables/connectors. New NACS deployments will be at higher voltage and over time older stations will be upgraded. Once VW announces NACS, for all practical purposes, CCS will be a legacy standard. Over time fewer and fewer stations will have CCS cables just as fewer and fewer have CHAdeMO. Those with CCS cars will carry an adapter, just as some of us now carry a “Tesla Tap”. NACS like it or not, will be the standard for the US.
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I am not contesting that Lucid should eventually switch to NACS. The connector is much smaller, lighter, and aesthetically better, all of which are important for first time EV buyers. However, Lucid should not be announcing this now to cannibalize their car's sales and also to figure out if it is really 1000v like promised. If it is, then by all means Lucid can announce in 2024 for 2025 launch date. Now however, all we are doing is adding nothing and taking away all CCS options, considering that HV SC's will have CCS as well.
 
xponents said:
I am not contesting that Lucid should eventually switch to NACS. The connector is much smaller, lighter, and aesthetically better, all of which are important for first time EV buyers. However, Lucid should not be announcing this now to cannibalize their car's sales and also to figure out if it is really 1000v like promised. If it is, then by all means Lucid can announce in 2024 for 2025 launch date. Now however, all we are doing is adding nothing and taking away all CCS options, considering that HV SC's will have CCS as well.
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You’re not taking away any CCS options by announcing now.

BMW, Fisker, Ford, Genesis, GM, Honda, Hyundai, Jaguar, Kia, Lexus, Mercedes, Mini, Nissan, Polestar, Volvo, Rivian, Rolls Royce, and Toyota have all announced.

Most people still don’t know what a Lucid or CCS or NACS is.

Adding charging options is not going cannibalize sales, in fact I would argue the opposite, failure to support the predominant standard will hurt sales.
I think the above companies would agree.
 
Bill55 said:
You’re not taking away any CCS options by announcing now.

BMW, Fisker, Ford, Genesis, GM, Honda, Hyundai, Jaguar, Kia, Lexus, Mercedes, Mini, Nissan, Polestar, Volvo, Rivian, Rolls Royce, and Toyota have all announced.

Most people still don’t know what a Lucid or CCS or NACS is.

Adding charging options is not going cannibalize sales, in fact I would argue the opposite, failure to support the predominant standard will hurt sales.
I think the above companies would agree.
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Right now, the only place with a NACS plug is a supercharger. EA's or anything else do not have them. However, soon SC's will have CCS as well, so we would be sacrificing all those CCS options and not gain anything.
 
Announcing now doesn’t change the car tomorrow. We would be looking at 2025 earliest.
Once agreements are made you can have CCS to NACS and NACS to CCS once supported in software.

I would buy an adapter tomorrow to add 20,000 possible 50kW charging locations. An adapter with a 3‘ cable.


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As soon as Lucid announces NACS, people will wait for the new thing. It does not matter that a simple adapter can substitute. Hence, announcing too soon will hurt sales, not help them.
 
Adnillien said:
As soon as Lucid announces NACS, people will wait for the new thing. It does not matter that a simple adapter can substitute. Hence, announcing too soon will hurt sales, not help them.
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Doesn’t seem to be hurting Rivian.
I think my post will age well. Revisit in a year.
 
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Adnillien said:
As soon as Lucid announces NACS, people will wait for the new thing. It does not matter that a simple adapter can substitute. Hence, announcing too soon will hurt sales, not help them.
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I disagree. In fact, just the opposite. I bought a Pure just 2 months ago. I almost bought a Tesla instead. The horror stories I've read, like from Out Of Spec podcasts, gave me doubt. No word from Lucid added to my doubt. I just talked myself into the Lucid since I don't make many long trips. But I can tell you EA, in my experience so far, has been a nightmare. Thank goodness for home charging. I just hope Lucid steps up, as many of their competitors already have.
 
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After reading numerous posts, I got a sense that people who wants Lucid to adopt NACS also imply that he/she wants to use Tesla Super Charger. I have to say be careful what you are asking for. As more OEMs adopt NACS, Tesla SC network will dominate the market and thus put most EVSE companies out of business. Eventually, Tesla SC will "monopolized" the EVSE market. They could increase kW/Hr rate, tack on miscellaneous fees just to use their network. We'll then complaining about service, cost and wonder why there isn't competition in the EVSE space. We see this with mobile service provider, internet service provider, US airlines, on and on.
 
BACamster said:
After reading numerous posts, I got a sense that people who wants Lucid to adopt NACS also imply that he/she wants to use Tesla Super Charger. I have to say be careful what you are asking for. As more OEMs adopt NACS, Tesla SC network will dominate the market and thus put most EVSE companies out of business. Eventually, Tesla SC will "monopolized" the EVSE market. They could increase kW/Hr rate, tack on miscellaneous fees just to use their network. We'll then complaining about service, cost and wonder why there isn't competition in the EVSE space. We see this with mobile service provider, internet service provider, US airlines, on and on.
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Monopoly is a legitimate concern.

Tesla has already lowered its car prices waiting for other competitors who can't match the lower prices and die off. Once competitors are eliminated, of course it could increase to the higher prices like they had before.

The same is true with NACS. However, no-deal cars like Lucid can still charge at the very few Tesla Magic Dock Superchargers but with higher prices while deal-cars like Ford are promised to get the same price as Tesla cars.

Most major car companies with the deal still plan to build up their own charging networks. The deal is only a bridge to their own independent charging network completion.

Instead of less charging competitors, even British Petroleum has bought $100 million Tesla Supercharger hardware to build their own too (TravelCenters of America, Thorntons, Ampm, Amoco...)

Whether there's a monopoly or not, expensive, unreliable charging companies will die.

And when the monopoly becomes expensive, other competitors will rise up to fill the vacuum.
 
"And when the monopoly becomes expensive, other competitors will rise up to fill the vacuum."

Oh only if we wish this statement is true. Our business climate allows big businesses swallow up smaller businesses. We will end up with "too big to fail" scenario with EVSE.
 
BACamster said:
"And when the monopoly becomes expensive, other competitors will rise up to fill the vacuum."

Oh only if we wish this statement is true. Our business climate allows big businesses swallow up smaller businesses. We will end up with "too big to fail" scenario with EVSE.
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Tesla was essentially a practical EV monopoly (cheaper Nissan Leaf is no competition because not practical to drive from coast to coast).

Its cheapest Model X was $120,990 last year (2022). Now, it's $74,990. That's before $7,500 Federal tax and other local incentives.

It's still profitable despite $46,000 less in price.

Despite fear of monopoly, I don't think there will only 1 car company in the US when all cars will be EV only.

Yes, one charging standard just like the European USB-C only, but best companies, not worst quality but with monopoly will survive.
 
joec said:
Again, once someone demonstrates the NACS plug actually charging at 1000v, I completely agree.
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So I was in full agreement of this recently.

Having the 50 kw is better than nothing, if Lucid does announce the change to NACS, wouldn't that just mean we have an additional place to charge? The CCS chargers will still all work, but now we can go to NACS with an adapter right? That's what I assume.
 
BACamster said:
After reading numerous posts, I got a sense that people who wants Lucid to adopt NACS also imply that he/she wants to use Tesla Super Charger. I have to say be careful what you are asking for. As more OEMs adopt NACS, Tesla SC network will dominate the market and thus put most EVSE companies out of business. Eventually, Tesla SC will "monopolized" the EVSE market. They could increase kW/Hr rate, tack on miscellaneous fees just to use their network. We'll then complaining about service, cost and wonder why there isn't competition in the EVSE space. We see this with mobile service provider, internet service provider, US airlines, on and on.
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Not a good analogy. When you can instal a charger that works for all cars you will have the largest possible addressable market. Included free charging will go away and charging stations will compete for business. Who has bought a car with included gasoline? When Teslas or any other EV do not have free charging included, charging will become more competitive. Houses will be built with level 2 chargers and apartment complexes will add level 2 charging as residents choose complexes with chargers. There is plenty of power for level 2, and for 99% of driving level 2 is perfect. 99% of all trips are less than 100 miles from home.
 
Volund said:
So I was in full agreement of this recently.

Having the 50 kw is better than nothing, if Lucid does announce the change to NACS, wouldn't that just mean we have an additional place to charge? The CCS chargers will still all work, but now we can go to NACS with an adapter right? That's what I assume.
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Having 50kW charge buy you some distance to go to next stop for real CCS charger. Currently, many small population cities (<400k) have no major CCS station, but Tesla Supercharging station.

If an auto-maker adopts NACS, in future year their charge port will conform to new NASC standard and their existing CCS owners will receive adaptor to convert to NACS.

EVGo and EA are deploying NACS dispensers in 2025, both CCS and CHADeMO are here to stay.

To use Tesla Supercharging Network is another story, automaker has to have agreement with Tesla to allow handshake. There are already CCS to NACS adaptor released in the market now. You can buy them, but they are unusable on Tesla Supercharging Stations. MagicDock stations are the only place that will indiscriminately charge any CCS by just using Tesla mobile app and activate stall and payment thru app.
 
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