Lucid CEO critiques other EV-SUVs

[HC_79]

Tesla model 3 real world efficiency isn't that different. Ioniq 6 efficiency can be slightly better. Lucid's drivetrain efficiency is world class, but not a miracle.

The Model 3 weighs up to ~4000lbs
The Ioniq 6 weights up to ~4500lbs
The Lucid weighs up to ~5300lbs

It's a VERY efficient vehicle for the weight its pulling along. When you compare to other brands Lucid simply goes further on less battery compared to the other.

 

[BS8899]

And that large battery pack in the Lucid is smaller than the long range Rivian, Cybertruck, Hummer, etc.

True....the Lucid drive train is more efficient.


That said, to do an apples-to-apples comparison, you will need to normalize the # seats/passengers in the car 7 vs 5), the weight of the car (5,236lb vs ,7,068lb). towing capacity, etc.. I am sure the Lucid drive train is more efficient, but not as much as you think. On my 780 mile PHX to Marin drive, I can do it with 2 charge stops on the Lucid and 3 stops on the Rivian.

BTW, I haven't done the math. But it won't surprise me if the Chevy Bolt/Nissan Leaf/Fiat 500e might be the efficiency king!

 

[hmp10]

BTW, I haven't done the math. But it won't surprise me if the Chevy Bolt/Nissan Leaf/Fiat 500e might be the efficiency king!

According to the EPA, the only four EVs that attained an efficiency of 24 kWh / 100 miles in their most efficient configurations were:

- Lucid Air Pure AWD
- Lucid Air Touring AWD
- Tesla Model 3 Long Range RWD
- Hyundai Ionic 6 Long Range RWD

The three you named were considerably less efficient:

- Chevy Bolt: 28 kWh / 100 miles
- Nissan Leaf: 30 kWh / 100 miles
- Fiat 500e: 31 kWh / 100 miles

The Air, of course, is a considerably larger and heavier car than any of the others on these lists, making it the clear efficiency king in its size and weight class.

Fuel Economy of New All-Electric Vehicles

Fuel economy of the . 1984 to present Buyer's Guide to Fuel Efficient Cars and Trucks. Estimates of gas mileage, greenhouse gas emissions, safety ratings, and air pollution ratings for new and used cars and trucks.

www.fueleconomy.gov

 

[DeaneG]

@hmp10 absolutely, but I'm wary of directly comparing EPA efficiencies. Tesla and Lucid are clearly better test-takers than the others, and it shows up in that EPA-to-freeway range comparison.

 

[hmp10]

. . . I'm wary of directly comparing EPA efficiencies.

I am, too, but it's the only even quasi-objective way to compare EV efficiencies across vehicles in order to answer the question @BS8899 raised.

 

[PostCombustion]

I think any extended time where the Gravity is available only at price points over $100k will sink the company. This was the issue with the Air, and why volume is so low, and why prices had to be cut to get any traction (which was still very small numbers). ...

Limited sales outlets aren't helping either.

 

[BS8899]

The Model 3 weighs up to ~4000lbs
The Ioniq 6 weights up to ~4500lbs
The Lucid weighs up to ~5300lbs

It's a VERY efficient vehicle for the weight its pulling along. When you compare to other brands Lucid simply goes further on less battery compared to the other.

Comparing efficiencies across different manufacturers, different body types (hence aerodynamics), different weights, different battery size, different torques, different HP, etc. are difficult to do and largely meaningless.

Comparing within one body type (e.g., Lucid Air), same weight, same environmental conditions, is more meaningful and tractable.

For example, Lucid's recent announcement of achieving 5 miles/kWh, what does that mean? Without knowing all of the parameters, it is a meaningless metric. To make an absurd point, if it is an one-person electric scooter weighing 200lbs with a small battery that has a 30 mile range, who cares? If it is a Lucid Air, 5,300lbs, 500+ mile range, same or higher torque and HP, @5 Miles/kWh (EPA), that represents an 8.7 % efficiency improvement from the current offerings.

So, Does anyone know what this 5 miles/kWh wonder is?

 

[hmp10]

Comparing efficiencies across different manufacturers, different body types (hence aerodynamics), different weights, different battery size, different torques, different HP, etc. are difficult to do and largely meaningless.

All true. But why, then, your earlier speculation about the Air's efficiency compared to a Bolt, Leaf, and 500e -- all of which are considerably smaller, lighter, and less powerful than the Air?

Comparing within one body type (e.g., Lucid Air), same weight, same environmental conditions, is more meaningful and tractable.

Yes, which is why I compare our Model S Plaid to our Air Dream Performance driving the same route in the same weather and traffic conditions. The Air is virtually identical in size and very close in Cd. The Air weighs a bit more -- something that works against it in efficiency. It has a 16% larger battery pack than the Plaid, yet a 30% longer range with both cars using the same EPA 5-cycle testing protocol.

I have done several range comparisons between the two cars. I set the cruise control of both cars to 82 mph (a true 80 mph in both cars according to my radar systems' GPS speed readout). I drive each car east on Alligator Alley, a flat, straight, light-traffic stretch of Interstate 75 through the Florida Everglades and then turn back to drive the same route west. I use highway mile markers to gauge distance and compare the power usage in both cars. The Air gets between 78-79% of its rated 451-mile range; the Plaid gets 72-73% of its rated 348-mile range. This yields an actual range difference of ~100 miles between the two cars (451 x .78 = 352 vs. 348 x.72 = 251) -- all due to the Air's greater efficiency rather than size, weight, Cd, environmental conditions, etc.

So, Does anyone know what this 5 miles/kWh wonder is?

Why do I get the feeling you're trying to pick a fight about Lucid's efficiency claims?

 

[hmp10]

So, Does anyone know what this 5 miles/kWh wonder is?

According to "Electrek":

"Speaking during the 3rd Annual Evercore ISI Global Clean Energy & Transitions Summit in New York City on June 12, 2024, Peter Rawlinson announced the efficiency milestone of 5 miles per kWh in a Lucid Air. Rawlinson did not specifically state which model achieved the record rating, but the images shown during the presentation make it clear that it was the RWD version of the Lucid Air Pure – currently the automaker’s most affordable variant and a favorite of both myself and Lucid’s CEO."

 

[hydbob]

The Gravity is the only way to replace a minivan and not sacrifice the space you achieve from having a minivan. No other vehicle can do this, except maybe the ID Buzz. Not the R1S, or the EV9 or the Model X.

 

[RockSports]

I didn't read through all the comments on this thread, but I don't care for comments like the ones made in this article. There is no need to denigrate the competition and claim something that isn't true. The Rivian R1S crossed the Rubicon trail stock. Rivian has an upcoming variant that goes 0-60 in 2.6 seconds. VW has recently signed an agreement to pay Rivian 5 BILLION dollars to use their software because of how good it is. Considering all the complaints about Lucid software I've seen on this forum, it's another reason why comments like saying all EV SUVs aren't very good won't be received well.

Lucid isn't even as far along as Rivian on the path to profitability or in terms of manufacturing volume. Understandably, you are excited about your upcoming release. It's even acceptable to talk about how your vehicle is unique in the marketplace, but it's not appropriate to do that at the expense of everyone else. It's poor business practice and rooted in a CEO's insecurity. Part of what has turned me off about Tesla is Elon's behavior and antagonistic comments, like the ones Peter just made here, which are on that same spectrum. One of the best things I like about Rivian has been the behavior of R.J. Scaringe, Rivian's CEO. Peter needs to concentrate on his release, fix the issues with his own vehicles, and ensure that Lucid is doing what it can to fulfill their promises to their owners instead of talking about how much better his products are than the competition. Especially when his product doesn't even exist yet, has no independent reviews of a production version, and the competition has been in the market for years.

 

[Drendino]

Here is the kind of OTAs that Rivian owners receive monthly or sometimes even bi-monthly. At this time there is no Dream Drive Pro equivalent to Rivian’s platform, so all of these OTAs go to the entire fleet. Video streaming comes next month.

I really think that Peter should worry about fixing the issues in his own backyard and stop mimicking Elon. He's picking a fight he can't win. On this forum we obsess about efficiency and interior dimensions, but the geveral public who buys EV SUVs doesn't really care. Lucid better get their price right and start taking software seriously, or they will never put a dent into Rivian market share. And yes, the R1S will be Gravity’s main competition whether they like it if not. People LOVE Rivian because of what they are doing with software advancements. The R1S I have today is light years better than the car I received last year and I can't say the same about my GT. I love both, but if I had to get rid of one it would be the GT, hands down. 15 service visits with my GT to 0 with my R1S and my R1s gets better every month, from efficiency, to ride quality to software improvements.

Rivian Update 2024.19.04

2024.19.04 – New Suspension Software, Refreshed UI, Blind Spot Camera, Climate Control, Auto Software Updates, Improved Maps Search, and Additional Improvements

riviantrackr.com

 

[joec]

I didn't read through all the comments on this thread, but I don't care for comments like the ones made in this article. There is no need to denigrate the competition and claim something that isn't true. The Rivian R1S crossed the Rubicon trail stock. Rivian has an upcoming variant that goes 0-60 in 2.6 seconds. VW has recently signed an agreement to pay Rivian 5 BILLION dollars to use their software because of how good it is. Considering all the complaints about Lucid software I've seen on this forum, it's another reason why comments like saying all EV SUVs aren't very good won't be received well.

Lucid isn't even as far along as Rivian on the path to profitability or in terms of manufacturing volume. Understandably, you are excited about your upcoming release. It's even acceptable to talk about how your vehicle is unique in the marketplace, but it's not appropriate to do that at the expense of everyone else. It's poor business practice and rooted in a CEO's insecurity. Part of what has turned me off about Tesla is Elon's behavior and antagonistic comments, like the ones Peter just made here, which are on that same spectrum. One of the best things I like about Rivian has been the behavior of R.J. Scaringe, Rivian's CEO. Peter needs to concentrate on his release, fix the issues with his own vehicles, and ensure that Lucid is doing what it can to fulfill their promises to their owners instead of talking about how much better his products are than the competition. Especially when his product doesn't even exist yet, has no independent reviews of a production version, and the competition has been in the market for years.

I’m sorry, but comparing Peter to Elon is just ridiculous.

I agree, he’d be better off if he never mentioned the competition at all.

It’s important to remember, Peter at first always spoke in terms of converting ICE customers from Mercedes, Audi, BMW, Porsche when the Air was first introduced. He actively avoided talking about Tesla and just about never mentioned Rivian.

But the press kept pushing him into comparisons with Tesla. As if EV companies should be competing against each other for the same already converted customers. It’s not the conversation he wanted to have, but that’s where the conversation was taken. So now he’s coming out with an SUV, so of course they are going to want to compare that to Rivian and the Kia EV9, etc.

He’s the CEO of Lucid. He has to believe his product is better than the competition. If he doesn’t, why should we?

The comments about other EVs out there “sucking” was in the context of pushing the boundaries of efficiency, innovation in packaging, and “software” which refers to the software controlling efficiency and handling, by the way, not User Interface. I think he’s got a right to think Lucid has a leg up on the competition in those three key areas.

But I do agree he could be proud of Lucid’s accomplishments without having to be as disparaging about the competition. It only reveals the vulnerable position Lucid is in right now.

 

[BS8899]

All true. But why, then, your earlier speculation about the Air's efficiency compared to a Bolt, Leaf, and 500e -- all of which are considerably smaller, lighter, and less powerful than the Air?



Yes, which is why I compare our Model S Plaid to our Air Dream Performance driving the same route in the same weather and traffic conditions. The Air is virtually identical in size and very close in Cd. The Air weighs a bit more -- something that works against it in efficiency. It has a 16% larger battery pack than the Plaid, yet a 30% longer range with both cars using the same EPA 5-cycle testing protocol.

I have done several range comparisons between the two cars. I set the cruise control of both cars to 82 mph (a true 80 mph in both cars according to my radar systems' GPS speed readout). I drive each car east on Alligator Alley, a flat, straight, light-traffic stretch of Interstate 75 through the Florida Everglades and then turn back to drive the same route west. I use highway mile markers to gauge distance and compare the power usage in both cars. The Air gets between 78-79% of its rated 451-mile range; the Plaid gets 72-73% of its rated 348-mile range. This yields an actual range difference of ~100 miles between the two cars (451 x .78 = 352 vs. 348 x.72 = 251) -- all due to the Air's greater efficiency rather than size, weight, Cd, environmental conditions, etc.



Why do I get the feeling you're trying to pick a fight about Lucid's efficiency claims?

The data you cited are impressive. And I am NOT in any way saying Lucid's power train is not efficient, perhaps one of the most (if the most) amongst the popular EVs.

That said, according to controlled testing by multiple reviewers, Lucid and Tesla are the two worst cars when it comes to controlled tested range vs their claimed EPA range claims and the German car often met or exceed their claim. Most owners on this forum reports long-term cum efficiencies in the 3.4 to 3.7 miles/kWh. Thus, while Lucid might be the most efficient power train, but are they really as good as they claim in real-life driving. Yes, Lucid's might be the most efficient power train, but in real-life driving, it is not as efficient as they claimed to be. Both statements can be true at the same time. That, is my point!

When I place my order for my AGT in late 2021, I was travelling regularly between Phoenix and LA where my son went to school. The door-to-door distance was exactly 400 miles 9from my Paradise Valley house to my Rancho Palos Verdes house). Driving at 75mph, starting at 100% SoC, it was never able to make the trip without charging. Yes, I do know there are changes in elevations along the way. Phoenix is ~1,300ft above sea level and LA is almost sea level. And Yes, there is the Chiraco Summit (1,706 ft) in between. The AGT is rated at 516 miles (EPA). It has never been able to do the 400 mile run without stopping to charge once. I've done this under different weather conditions.

That said, I WILL SAY that Lucid is probably the most efficient power train, but in real life highway driving, it is significantly below (say 20-25% below) its claimed EPA range.

And YES, I do know the EPA range is an amalgamation of varied driving conditions and there are "fudge-factors" associated with it. Then look at the owners reported "life-time" efficiencies. And also ask the question why other manufactures (e.g., German cars) often met/exceed their EPA claims whilst Lucid/Tesla have significant negative deviations.

 

[Steveinarizona]

The data you cited are impressive. And I am NOT in any way saying Lucid's power train is not efficient, perhaps one of the most (if the most) amongst the popular EVs.

That said, according to controlled testing by multiple reviewers, Lucid and Tesla are the two worst cars when it comes to controlled tested range vs their claimed EPA range claims and the German car often met or exceed their claim. Most owners on this forum reports long-term cum efficiencies in the 3.4 to 3.7 miles/kWh. Thus, while Lucid might be the most efficient power train, but are they really as good as they claim in real-life driving. Yes, Lucid's might be the most efficient power train, but in real-life driving, it is not as efficient as they claimed to be. Both statements can be true at the same time. That, is my point!

When I place my order for my AGT in late 2021, I was travelling regularly between Phoenix and LA where my son went to school. The door-to-door distance was exactly 400 miles 9from my Paradise Valley house to my Rancho Palos Verdes house). Driving at 75mph, starting at 100% SoC, it was never able to make the trip without charging. Yes, I do know there are changes in elevations along the way. Phoenix is ~1,300ft above sea level and LA is almost sea level. And Yes, there is the Chiraco Summit (1,706 ft) in between. The AGT is rated at 516 miles (EPA). It has never been able to do the 400 mile run without stopping to charge once. I've done this under different weather conditions.

That said, I WILL SAY that Lucid is probably the most efficient power train, but in real life highway driving, it is significantly below (say 20-25% below) its claimed EPA range.

And YES, I do know the EPA range is an amalgamation of varied driving conditions and there are "fudge-factors" associated with it. Then look at the owners reported "life-time" efficiencies. And also ask the question why other manufactures (e.g., German cars) often met/exceed their EPA claims whilst Lucid/Tesla have significant negative deviations.

In my experience driving a Genesis GV60P I get less efficiency driving on the interstate. That is most likely because of speed. It is difficult to drive slower than 75 on that trip BUT the EPA test is done at 55 (if I am not mistaken). Those extra 20 mph just kill range. So I would not expect you to get anywhere close to the rated range driving at that speed (I would have difficulty keeping at or below that speed myself; fortunately I don't care about range).

BMW has always sandbagged its performance numbers usually getting at or about its stated HP at the wheels where most manufacturers lose 10-15% of their power. The Germans have also used the EPA test that produces lower numbers (unlike Tesla and Lucid) which helps them meet range targets. But driving at 75 mph from Phoenix to LA will definitely negatively impact range even for the Germans.

Bottom line, however, is that if range is important to you, when all is said and done Lucid still has the longest range. Many years ago I was driving from Phoenix to Tucson and decided to take the picturesque route through Florence, etc. I didn't realize that there were no gas stations on that route. I ended up turning off the AC, opening the windows, and driving 55 mph and just managed to get to a Chevron station in Oro Valley. If you drove from Phoenix to LA at 55 mph you would probably get the stated range; you might also get shot as a result of road rage.

 

[DeaneG]

...

Rivian Update 2024.19.04

2024.19.04 – New Suspension Software, Refreshed UI, Blind Spot Camera, Climate Control, Auto Software Updates, Improved Maps Search, and Additional Improvements

riviantrackr.com

Now THAT's what I want. I'm very much looking forward to a midsize SUV from a company that considers software to be as important as other attributes.

 

[BS8899]

In my experience driving a Genesis GV60P I get less efficiency driving on the interstate. That is most likely because of speed. It is difficult to drive slower than 75 on that trip BUT the EPA test is done at 55 (if I am not mistaken). Those extra 20 mph just kill range. So I would not expect you to get anywhere close to the rated range driving at that speed (I would have difficulty keeping at or below that speed myself; fortunately I don't care about range).

BMW has always sandbagged its performance numbers usually getting at or about its stated HP at the wheels where most manufacturers lose 10-15% of their power. The Germans have also used the EPA test that produces lower numbers (unlike Tesla and Lucid) which helps them meet range targets. But driving at 75 mph from Phoenix to LA will definitely negatively impact range even for the Germans.

Bottom line, however, is that if range is important to you, when all is said and done Lucid still has the longest range. Many years ago I was driving from Phoenix to Tucson and decided to take the picturesque route through Florence, etc. I didn't realize that there were no gas stations on that route. I ended up turning off the AC, opening the windows, and driving 55 mph and just managed to get to a Chevron station in Oro Valley. If you drove from Phoenix to LA at 55 mph you would probably get the stated range; you might also get shot as a result of road rage.

Here is a link to the EPA test conditions. Highway speed testing done @60mph.

Understand your point. I never thought driving on I-10 @75mph will get me 516 miles. In my recent drive, I got ~340 miles before my SoC went below 10%. I pulled over the charge.

Speaking of German cars, if you look at their charging curve, they are much flatter than Lucid's. Thus, they charge just as fast (if not faster) than Lucid's 900V.

To be clear, I think Lucid has many good innovations with cabin space, power train size/efficiencies and charging. I wish they dial back a bit of the hype and be more realistic in their claims so they don't come across as Tesla! To be fair to Tesla, they were the EV industry pioneer, and they made a ton of contributions. The EV industry wouldn't have taken off without Tesla. But their claims (e.g., FSD) have taken on the personality of their CEO. In the long term, it hurts their credibility. Lucid, please don't go there!

 

[BS8899]

Here is a link to the EPA test conditions. Highway speed testing done @60mph.

Understand your point. I never thought driving on I-10 @75mph will get me 516 miles. In my recent drive, I got ~340 miles before my SoC went below 10%. I pulled over the charge.

Speaking of German cars, if you look at their charging curve, they are much flatter than Lucid's. Thus, they charge just as fast (if not faster) than Lucid's 900V.

To be clear, I think Lucid has many good innovations with cabin space, power train size/efficiencies and charging. I wish they dial back a bit of the hype and be more realistic in their claims so they don't come across as Tesla! To be fair to Tesla, they were the EV industry pioneer, and they made a ton of contributions. The EV industry wouldn't have taken off without Tesla. But their claims (e.g., FSD) have taken on the personality of their CEO. In the long term, it hurts their credibility. Lucid, please don't go there!

Sorry, forgot to attach the link

Here’s how the EPA calculates how far an EV can go on a full charge

Ever wonder how an EV's official range estimate is calculated? Wonder no more.

arstechnica.com

 

[RockSports]

I’m sorry, but comparing Peter to Elon is just ridiculous.

I agree, he’d be better off if he never mentioned the competition at all.

It’s important to remember, Peter at first always spoke in terms of converting ICE customers from Mercedes, Audi, BMW, Porsche when the Air was first introduced. He actively avoided talking about Tesla and just about never mentioned Rivian.

But the press kept pushing him into comparisons with Tesla. As if EV companies should be competing against each other for the same already converted customers. It’s not the conversation he wanted to have, but that’s where the conversation was taken. So now he’s coming out with an SUV, so of course they are going to want to compare that to Rivian and the Kia EV9, etc.

He’s the CEO of Lucid. He has to believe his product is better than the competition. If he doesn’t, why should we?

The comments about other EVs out there “sucking” was in the context of pushing the boundaries of efficiency, innovation in packaging, and “software” which refers to the software controlling efficiency and handling, by the way, not User Interface. I think he’s got a right to think Lucid has a leg up on the competition in those three key areas.

But I do agree he could be proud of Lucid’s accomplishments without having to be as disparaging about the competition. It only reveals the vulnerable position Lucid is in right now.

R.J. gets pushed into antagonistic comments by the media all the time, too; he just doesn't take the bait. When the Cybertruck was released, many media personalities tried to get him to say the R1 was superior, but instead, he said something about there being room in the market for everyone and how new entries in the marketplace help everyone to be better. This is a classy response, unlike what was done in Peter's example. Like it or not, Peter's comment is exactly what Elon would make when talking about his competition.

Also, I don't think Lucid has a leg up over Rivian when it comes to innovation in packaging and software-controlled vehicles. They use different tech, for sure, but to discount a vehicle that can drive to the trail in sport mode, then lift to 15" of ground clearance and cross the Rubicon trail in its stock configuration is outrageous. If the Gravity turns out to be what is claimed there will be some advantages over Rivian's R1S, but also drawbacks when compared. Gravity might have better handling and efficiency but both of these things come at the cost of off-road capability. Sure most people, myself included, don't use that capability but to deny those abilities aren't every bit as innovative is to deny reality itself.

It sounds like we both agree for the most part here, where we differ is I cannot excuse these sorts of comments. As an executive myself I disagree with the strategy, and although I'm not the sort of player that Peter or R.J. or Elon are, I still wouldn't speak on the record about my competition that way. It's a bad strategy and as you said, it reveals your own insecurity about your market position. I am possibly interested in the gravity but if Lucid is going to continue down this path my interest will wane and I will cross Gravity off my list. Sure it's only one sale, but when you reach the pot shots at everyone else stage the slope becomes quite slippery and before you know it you're smoking weed on Joe Rogan and buying failing social media platforms.

 

[TFCooper]

The Rivian R1S crossed the Rubicon trail stock.

I reread this a couple of times, and I'm still not sure I get your meaning.

The Rubicon was the river that Julius Caesar crossed when he attacked Rome. He was committed once he crossed it with his army, since that action itself was treasonous. So once he did that there was no turning back: he had started an insurrection.

So usually when I read the phrase "crossing the Rubicon", I infer it means there is "no turning back" or something similar.
In your case, perhaps you meant something like "blazed a trail"? And "stock" in this case means "unmodified"?

All that said, the Rivian refresh looks awesome and is a worthy competitor to the Gravity. Every Rivian owner I've run into is enthusiastic about their car. I hope I can convince my wife to replace her Range Rover with an R1S or a Gravity.