Lucid CEO critiques other EV-SUVs

[Batteryman]

It is not a weakness question. Don't treat your customers as morons.

If Lucid and Tesla disclose their 70mph highway speed range (in addition to EPA), they are still the leader, though not by as much.
In part, that's why I trust my Rivian more than I trust my Lucid. Aside from the superior SW, to a first order, Rivian delivers what they spec'ed.

Hahaha…I’m glad you are not the CEO of Lucid! That’s not how companies are run. Lucid delivers an EPA of 400-500 miles for various models, and that is what they advertise. Why should they disclose more- at 30mph you get this, at 50 you get this, really ? This just confuses more. Does Rivian advertise 70mph range? Why blame Lucid. Nothing wrong in what Lucid is doing with regards to range advertising. They are following the rules. Of course, if you drive like a race car driver, yes your range will drop.

 

[BS8899]

Hahaha…I’m glad you are not the CEO of Lucid! That’s not how companies are run. Lucid delivers an EPA of 400-500 miles for various models, and that is what they advertise. Why should they disclose more- at 30mph you get this, at 50 you get this, really ? This just confuses more. Does Rivian advertise 70mph range? Why blame Lucid. Nothing wrong in what Lucid is doing with regards to range advertising. They are following the rules. Of course, if you drive like a race car driver, yes your range will drop.

First, I don't consider myself qualified to be the CEO of Lucid, and I am glad I am not.
According to websites that have done the tests, my recollection is the Rivian R1S ins consistent with its claim at highway speed. This is consistent with my own experience.
I spent 30 years in leading-edge hi tech development. Our products were/are used world wide. In the early days on my career (in the late 1980s/early 1990s), we didn't always disclose all the bugs (or deviations to performance) we internally found on our products. We passed (the erroneous) judgment that these deviation are rare and nits, and average customers are not sophisticated enough to care. But we were wrong.

There is a small but sophisticated tech community that has the intellect and passion to uncover things that don't work right (or degradation in performance under certain circumstances that we didn't document). Initially, we see this community as an annoyance. But we learned to embrace them rather than dissing them. In reality, they are the strongest advocate that want our products to be as good as we can make them. We were not perfect by any means. But we became more forthcoming in our disclosures. Sunlight is the best disinfectant.

 

[Batteryman]

I didn't read through all the comments on this thread, but I don't care for comments like the ones made in this article. There is no need to denigrate the competition and claim something that isn't true. The Rivian R1S crossed the Rubicon trail stock. Rivian has an upcoming variant that goes 0-60 in 2.6 seconds. VW has recently signed an agreement to pay Rivian 5 BILLION dollars to use their software because of how good it is. Considering all the complaints about Lucid software I've seen on this forum, it's another reason why comments like saying all EV SUVs aren't very good won't be received well.

Lucid isn't even as far along as Rivian on the path to profitability or in terms of manufacturing volume. Understandably, you are excited about your upcoming release. It's even acceptable to talk about how your vehicle is unique in the marketplace, but it's not appropriate to do that at the expense of everyone else. It's poor business practice and rooted in a CEO's insecurity. Part of what has turned me off about Tesla is Elon's behavior and antagonistic comments, like the ones Peter just made here, which are on that same spectrum. One of the best things I like about Rivian has been the behavior of R.J. Scaringe, Rivian's CEO. Peter needs to concentrate on his release, fix the issues with his own vehicles, and ensure that Lucid is doing what it can to fulfill their promises to their owners instead of talking about how much better his products are than the competition. Especially when his product doesn't even exist yet, has no independent reviews of a production version, and the competition has been in the market for years.

And there is no need for you to denigrate Peter or Lucid. If you like the Rivian better, good for you. Go enjoy your ride. It does have better off road capabilities and software is better. But why come here and attack Peter for truthful comments that he made? It’s a perfectly sane thing to say when you really do have a competitive advantage, especially when some are putting in 200kwh battery and advertising 400 mile range. It’s important to educate and that is what Peter is doing. I understand you love your Rivian, better to just leave it there. Your comments about Peter don’t make any sense to me.

 

[Batteryman]

First, I don't consider myself qualified to be the CEO of Lucid, and I am glad I am not.
According to websites that have done the tests, my recollection is the Rivian R1S ins consistent with its claim at highway speed. This is consistent with my own experience.
I spent 30 years in leading-edge hi tech development. Our products were/are used world wide. In the early days on my career (in the late 1980s/early 1990s), we didn't always disclose all the bugs (or deviations to performance) we internally found on our products. We passed (the erroneous) judgment that these deviation are rare and nits, and average customers are not sophisticated enough to care. But we were wrong.

There is a small but sophisticated tech community that has the intellect and passion to uncover things that don't work right (or degradation in performance under certain circumstances that we didn't document). Initially, we see this community as an annoyance. But we learned to embrace them rather than dissing them. In reality, they are the strongest advocate that want our products to be as good as we can make them. We were not perfect by any means. But we became more forthcoming in our disclosures. Sunlight is the best disinfectant.

Lucid doesn’t need to disclose. They quote EPA. If you want every company to be so truthful then world will be in chaos. I commend your ethics, but that is not how the world works.

 

[RockSports]

And there is no need for you to denigrate Peter or Lucid. If you like the Rivian better, good for you. Go enjoy your ride. It does have better off road capabilities and software is better. But why come here and attack Peter for truthful comments that he made? It’s a perfectly sane thing to say when you really do have a competitive advantage, especially when some are putting in 200kwh battery and advertising 400 mile range. It’s important to educate and that is what Peter is doing. I understand you love your Rivian, better to just leave it there. Your comments about Peter don’t make any sense to me.

How is it true? The Gravity doesn't even exist yet, there are NO independent reviews of the model it's all speculation. Calling it better than ANYTHING at this point is at best premature.

 

[joec]

They are on the same spectrum. They are completly unnecessary, unprofessional and antagonistic. Children make comments like that, not CEOs of billion-dollar companies.

Elon claims that Peter barely worked at Tesla, and that he had little to do with Model S. Meanwhile, Peter’s name is on several of their patents. He’s said on numerous occasions that Lucid will be bankrupt within the year.

The two CEOs comments aren’t in the same ballpark. They’re not even playing the same sport.

The false equivalence is frankly silly.

I do agree, I’d rather he didn’t make comments like this. But putting the two men on the same level is just not able to be backed up with anything resembling fact.

 

[Joe]

There are valid points here. Thread will remain open, but please let’s keep it as a healthy and respectful discussion.

 

[RockSports]

Nothing wrong in telling the truth ……dumb range is dumb range, you need to get the word out about your advantage or no one will know.

It's important to remember that different electric vehicles serve different purposes. Not everyone is looking for a vehicle that's super low to the ground. Sometimes, other factors like capability can outweigh range.

Blame the EPA for that, they need to update their cycles.

So it is the EPA's fault that Lucid isn't hitting their range numbers, but other manufacturers post more realistic numbers? Lucid doesn't need to cite those figures if they were obtained with an asterisk. My Rivian gets very close to their stated efficiency numbers unless it's extremely cold out or I'm exceeding 75MPH on the highway.

Luci and Rivian are targeting different segments. How many people take a SUV off road like that? They have superior packaging and efficiency.Agree, Rivian has better software but their motor tech is behind Lucid. Gravity is not meant for off-roading!

Nothing wrong in citing your advantage. If you can’t be aggressive, you will disappear. So you are upset Peter called out other companies for putting in a super large battery for range? Larger battery means more environmental pollution, inefficiency, increased grid demand, larger brakes, more tire wear, more road damage- I can go on and on. I’m glad Peter is bringing this up instead of staying silent about such dumb engineering!

Peter didn't just cite his advantage; he threw mud on his competitors. My issue is that Peter took an opportunity to speak negatively about his competition. As you just said, Lucid and Rivian are targeting different markets. That doesn't make Lucid overall better, and it doesn't make Rivian or anyone else lousy. It makes them DIFFERENT in appealing to a wide range of people. Peter was wrong to say what he did. Better in this context is a matter of opinion and design philosophy not an objective truth.

I understand and agree that Gravity will excel in some areas relative to the competition; however, it will also lag behind in other places, which means a declarative statement of superiority is not only unwarranted but also untrue. I also would like to push back on the notion that aggression when it comes to competitors is necessary for business success. Assertive people are not dragging others down; they build others up. Winners welcome competition and don't trash it, especially when Gravity doesn't exist as a mass-manufactured vehicle. I hope Gravity does well; I joined this forum because of a genuine interest in the product. Gravity's focus on-road performance appeals to me more than Rivian's off-road focus. This is why comments like the ones Peter made in the article disappoint me.

 

[borski]

BUT....don't the EV manufacturers have a role for better disclosure? For example, Rivian meets (slightly better than) EPA on highway driving. And the German cars are better than their EPA ratings.

You keep repeating this, so I want to ensure you understand that there are two flavors of EPA testing. The 5-cycle flavor is what Tesla and Lucid uses. It is more expensive, more complicated, takes longer, and is billed by the EPA as being more realistic, as it takes a lot more into account. It’s inaccurate, I agree, but that’s how it’s sold. A side effect of the 5-cycle test is that manufacturers rarely hit the exact number, instead falling somewhat short in “real world driving,” as can be seen by Lucid and Tesla and anyone else who uses the 5-cycle test.

The 2-cycle test (cheaper, shorter, less complex) is what the German manufacturers use (among others). It is, according to the EPA, less accurate and represents a less holistic set of scenarios for the vehicle. A side effect of the 2-cycle test is that manufacturers regularly go somewhat over the estimated range, as it doesn’t take into account *enough* real-world driving.

The issue is that using the 2-cycle test undersells the range significantly, and may cause buyers to look elsewhere if range is a priority. But it is much cheaper and simpler.

The 5-cycle test oversells it a bit, but is a much better number for marketing and is what the EPA bills as more accurate. As a result, if range is a priority, it would have been fundamentally stupid of Lucid to use the 2-cycle test.

The real answer is probably for companies to run both tests in series and then meet somewhere in the middle, or find a new set of test cycles that is more accurate.

But if you want to be upset at someone, be upset at the EPA. I would have done *exactly* the same thing in Lucid’s shoes. The additional cost of the 5-cycle test is pennies compared to being able to claim you have the longest range on the market, period.

Lucid isn’t lying. Neither is Tesla. They are following the rules as they are outlined. It would be absolutely ludicrous for Lucid or anyone else to do anything else given the circumstances.

Now can we please, please, please, for the love of everything that is an electron, please put this conversation about “lying range” to bed once and for all. I have posted before about the intricacies of the cycles, and linked to the EPA docs, but it keeps coming up. Please let it die. I hate having to explain this over and over.

If I’m wrong, feel free to tell me how. But I’m quite certain I’m not.

 

[Steveinarizona]

How is it true? The Gravity doesn't even exist yet, there are NO independent reviews of the model it's all speculation. Calling it better than ANYTHING at this point is at best premature.

Presumably Peter Rawlinson has seen and reviewed the data from a real Gravity prototype. So he may know what he is talking about but context is always important and he hasn't seen what all the competitors are planning to do in the same time period.

 

[hmp10]

. . . please put this conversation about “lying range” to bed once and for all.

Most EV drivers don't focus on range for local driving, as it is almost never an issue, especially for those with home charging. It really comes into focus on a road trip, and this is where the confusion sets in.

DOT data says the average speed on U.S. interstates is 78 miles per hour, and I suspect buyers of 800+ horsepower cars tend to be in the high end of the range no matter what they claim. Speed is the biggest range killer because aerodynamic drag increases exponentially with speed. EPA testing is not geared to measuring range at the sustained highway speeds that prevail on U.S. highways, and no one should expect to get EPA range in such driving.

No company or reviewer is going to test and report a car's range at such real-world speeds, as they are illegal in the U.S. No government test is going to be geared to such speeds for the same reason.

I think the most any car company could do is put a disclaimer on the Monroney sticker that the range figure cited will likely not be attained "at typical highway driving speeds" and then leave it to the buyer to do his own research to figure out what range really to expect for the way he drives.

 

[Steveinarizona]

Most EV drivers don't focus on range for local driving, as it is almost never an issue, especially for those with home charging. It really comes into focus on a road trip, and this is where the confusion sets in.

DOT data says the average speed on U.S. interstates is 78 miles per hour, and I suspect buyers of 800+ horsepower cars tend to be in the high end of the range no matter what they claim. Speed is the biggest range killer because aerodynamic drag increases exponentially with speed. EPA testing is not geared to measuring range at the sustained highway speeds that prevail on U.S. highways, and no one should expect to get EPA range in such driving.

No company or reviewer is going to test and report a car's range at such real-world speeds, as they are illegal in the U.S. No government test is going to be geared to such speeds for the same reason.

I think the most any car company could do is put a disclaimer on the Monroney sticker that the range figure cited will likely not be attained "at typical highway driving speeds" and then leave it to the buyer to do his own research to figure out what range really to expect for the way he drive.

Very well put. IMHO you are entirely correct in this post. I have put on about 18K miles on my EV and even though I have free charging I have never used an external charger (always charge at home) and have never come close to running out of electrons. So range is not an issue for mer. But I don't do intercity driving, just a lot of driving around a very large urban area.

 

[Bobby]

Most EV drivers don't focus on range for local driving, as it is almost never an issue, especially for those with home charging. It really comes into focus on a road trip, and this is where the confusion sets in.

DOT data says the average speed on U.S. interstates is 78 miles per hour, and I suspect buyers of 800+ horsepower cars tend to be in the high end of the range no matter what they claim. Speed is the biggest range killer because aerodynamic drag increases exponentially with speed. EPA testing is not geared to measuring range at the sustained highway speeds that prevail on U.S. highways, and no one should expect to get EPA range in such driving.

No company or reviewer is going to test and report a car's range at such real-world speeds, as they are illegal in the U.S. No government test is going to be geared to such speeds for the same reason.

I think the most any car company could do is put a disclaimer on the Monroney sticker that the range figure cited will likely not be attained "at typical highway driving speeds" and then leave it to the buyer to do his own research to figure out what range really to expect for the way he drives.

Maybe true, but the first question out of anyone’s mouth upon seeing my Lucid is “what’s the range?”

 

[DeaneG]

Maybe true, but the first question out of anyone’s mouth upon seeing my Lucid is “what’s the range?”

What do you tell them? I say "EPA range is 516 miles. At freeway speeds it'll go about 380 miles, further than any other EV."
If they look surprised and want to know more (typical of people just learning about EVs), I offer a short explanation.

 

[BS8899]

I know my recent posting have pissed-off several of you and you question my motives. Rather than countering your posts individually, let me try a constructive approach:
I don’t want my reply to be an essay. Let me just state the relevant points:

• No, I am not trying to pick a fight with Lucid. But I think we need to do better than what most EV manufactures chose to disclose.
• Yes, I am aware of the EPA 2 cycle vs 5 cycle tests and the differences. But there is no excuse to hide behind it.
• Yes, I understand why EVs mileage goes down as you drive at highway speed. I studied fluid dynamics in my younger days. I am not an expert but I do understand the basics of drag/laminar/turbulent flows and their impact on speed.

Why EV manufacturers need to do better disclosures:

• Maybe it is not mandated by law, but I believe EV manufacturers should take the lead to better inform the buyers. Unless your EV is poorly designed, such disclosures shouldn’t change the rank-order of how efficient your car is with respect to competitors. It might change the actual efficiency numbers, making them more accurate and informative to the consumers. Why is that bad?!
• I am not even asking for de-novo thinking. Look at the attached sticker on a 2023 Lexus. If we can just do this for all EVs, that answers all of my concerns.
  
  
  

Why should consumers care?

• Aside from torque/horsepower/speed, which evoke visceral adrenaline release in the consumers, the real issues are:
• Range Anxiety:
• Range Anxiety is not precipitated by Sunday morning’s 3 miles drive to and from church or to the grocery store. In simplistic terms, it is about intercity highway driving.
• How far can I drive before I need to charge and not get stranded?
• If the manufacturer’s published metrics are accurate (as opposed to a wildly optimistic number that is never realizable), I don’t think we really need more than 250-300 mile highway range. That’s the “blader-limit”.
• How much does it cost for electricity to run my EV? Is it competitive with gas?
• Unlike ICE cars, EVs get worse in “mileage” at highway speed.
• Shouldn’t the consumers know how many miles they should expect when doing intercity driving? Is it actually cheaper than gas?
• I know the mileage vs speed question is speed and climate dependent. We can simplify it to summer/winter driving and assuming speeds (70mph or 75mph) {that means no Texas!}

Therefore,

I’d challenge this forum to come up with a new EV Sticker analogous to the ICE sticker I attached. Let’s get the EV manufacturers to get serious and adopt a common set of metrics. The current state of the EV industry (not Lucid-specific) is more hyperbole than facts.

 

[Steveinarizona]

I know my recent posting have pissed-off several of you and you question my motives. Rather than countering your posts individually, let me try a constructive approach:
I don’t want my reply to be an essay. Let me just state the relevant points:

• No, I am not trying to pick a fight with Lucid. But I think we need to do better than what most EV manufactures chose to disclose.
• Yes, I am aware of the EPA 2 cycle vs 5 cycle tests and the differences. But there is no excuse to hide behind it.
• Yes, I understand why EVs mileage goes down as you drive at highway speed. I studied fluid dynamics in my younger days. I am not an expert but I do understand the basics of drag/laminar/turbulent flows and their impact on speed.

Why EV manufacturers need to do better disclosures:

• Maybe it is not mandated by law, but I believe EV manufacturers should take the lead to better inform the buyers. Unless your EV is poorly designed, such disclosures shouldn’t change the rank-order of how efficient your car is with respect to competitors. It might change the actual efficiency numbers, making them more accurate and informative to the consumers. Why is that bad?!
• I am not even asking for de-novo thinking. Look at the attached sticker on a 2023 Lexus. If we can just do this for all EVs, that answers all of my concerns.View attachment 21572

Why should consumers care?

• Aside from torque/horsepower/speed, which evoke visceral adrenaline release in the consumers, the real issues are:
• Range Anxiety:
• Range Anxiety is not precipitated by Sunday morning’s 3 miles drive to and from church or to the grocery store. In simplistic terms, it is about intercity highway driving.
• How far can I drive before I need to charge and not get stranded?
• If the manufacturer’s published metrics are accurate (as opposed to a wildly optimistic number that is never realizable), I don’t think we really need more than 250-300 mile highway range. That’s the “blader-limit”.
• How much does it cost for electricity to run my EV? Is it competitive with gas?
• Unlike ICE cars, EVs get worse in “mileage” at highway speed.
• Shouldn’t the consumers know how many miles they should expect when doing intercity driving? Is it actually cheaper than gas?
• I know the mileage vs speed question is speed and climate dependent. We can simplify it to summer/winter driving and assuming speeds (70mph or 75mph) {that means no Texas!}

Therefore,

I’d challenge this forum to come up with a new EV Sticker analogous to the ICE sticker I attached. Let’s get the EV manufacturers to get serious and adopt a common set of metrics. The current state of the EV industry (not Lucid-specific) is more hyperbole than facts.

I don't have a Lucid but I am looking at my sticker for my GV60P EV and it has all the same stuff as the sticker above. Just EV numbers instead of gas numbers. What are you seeing on this sticker that you don't see on your Lucid?

 

[BS8899]

I don't have a Lucid but I am looking at my sticker for my GV60P EV and it has all the same stuff as the sticker above. Just EV numbers instead of gas numbers. What are you seeing on this sticker that you don't see on your Lucid?

Do you still have it? Can you post?

 

[Unmutual]

Do you still have it? Can you post?

Do a search for "Tesla Monroney sticker" and you'll see plenty of images. I couldn't find one for Lucid quickly and don't want to dig mine out.

 

[hmp10]

I know my recent posting have pissed-off several of you and you question my motives. Rather than countering your posts individually, let me try a constructive approach:
I don’t want my reply to be an essay. Let me just state the relevant points:

Here's a relevant point:

No matter what its EPA range vs. real-world range, you bought the longest-range EV on the market according to any and every test conducted by reputable reviewers. If that does not suit your needs, you are probably not a person who should have purchased an EV.

 

[BS8899]

Here's a relevant point:

No matter what it EPA range vs. real-world range, you bought the longest-range EV on the market according to any and every test conducted by reputable reviewers. If that does not suit your needs, you are probably not a person who should have purchased an EV.

I agree with you.

What is Lucid puts out a sticker that says: