Electrify America is enraging EV owners

[Drendino]

Bunny, I've read a lot of your posts & respect your positions on most. However, on this one I approach the EA question from another perspective. We gave our money to Lucid based on receiving a certain product. In the first 6 months I, like many, had to deal with Lucid's teething pains, very glitchy software, etc. For the most part I was willing to suck that up as part of their learning curve. However, I don't share your view of EA charging as a throw-in on the part of Lucid. Lucid promised "x" & has delivered "y" The "free" charging was part of the contract we all executed. Buyers of Lucids promised the complimentary charging are entitled to charging that works. If we had not been promised complimentary charging, I would not be bitching. But we were given this promise. And I believe Lucid had a responsibility to choose a supplier that could perform this element of the contract. I know I sure knew next to nothing about EA's capabilities, or lack thereof, before actually trying to use this service. Was I wrong to presume that Rawlinson & Co. knew, or should have known better than I? I don't think so.

I’m with you on this. I purchased in August of 2022. I’ve never owned an EV before and relied on the videos that Lucid was putting out about the technology and the ability to charge at 350 kWh via EA. I’ve never seen anything close to that amount (when they work at all) and the majority of the time I’m charging below 100 when I have to charge on road trips.

On week one I found out that everyone at Lucid knew that EA sucks. I feel like Lucid wasn’t honest about the supplier they chose and should have told customers that it was not a reliable source. Then people could have made informed decisions about the real world challenges of owning a non-Tesla EV. Even though Lucid has never really come out to warn people about their chosen provider, the EA shit show is no longer a secret, so I don’t think anyone that has purchased within the last year should be surprised about the state of EA.

 

[Haggy]

Of course, there are those of us who paid full freight for our Lucids (before all the current "gimmees" (free DDpro etc), & were promised 3 years of free charging, actually expected to get 1) chargers that worked & 2) to not have to pay for charging. Of course, EVGO or others are an option, but we have a contract that is supposed to give us free charging. Should we have to go to an alternative provider because EA works on occasionally??

You shouldn't, but Bunny's post was about why he wouldn't sell his Lucid for something else, given the EA issue. And there's a general issue of whether people should have been staying away from Lucid due to unreliable charging from EA. That's a moot point for new customers who aren't getting free charging. But if Lucid still offered free EA charging, and somebody had to decide whether to get a Lucid despite unreliable EA charging, or buy a different car and pay for charging no matter what, it would be fair to say that buying a different car wouldn't be an advantage in that respect, since a Lucid could charge at those other places too, and it wouldn't cost less to charge with a competing car.

 

[Lucken]

If all one cares about is reliable high speed charging when road tripping and nothing more, buy a Tesla. If you are concerned about the other 5,283 things (did I miss one?) that go into a great luxury EV choice, buy a Lucid.

 

[hydbob]

I’m with you on this. I purchased in August of 2022. I’ve never owned an EV before and relied on the videos that Lucid was putting out about the technology and the ability to charge at 350 kWh via EA. I’ve never seen anything close to that amount (when they work at all) and the majority of the time I’m charging below 100 when I have to charge on road trips.

On week one I found out that everyone at Lucid knew that EA sucks. I feel like Lucid wasn’t honest about the supplier they chose and should have told customers that it was not a reliable source. Then people could have made informed decisions about the real world challenges of owning a non-Tesla EV. Even though Lucid has never really come out to warn people about their chosen provider, the EA shit show is no longer a secret, so I don’t think anyone that has purchased within the last year should be surprised about the state of EA.

When I got my car, EA was doing great. There were essentially no lines and all the stations I visited worked fine. First charge I ever got on a roadtrip was above 300kw. Then everyone had an EV and everyone had free charging. It definitely wasn't on Lucid when they first started delivering vehicles, they were as honest as could be and put faith in EA to fix the issues.

 

[BS8899]

You shouldn't, but Bunny's post was about why he wouldn't sell his Lucid for something else, given the EA issue. And there's a general issue of whether people should have been staying away from Lucid due to unreliable charging from EA. That's a moot point for new customers who aren't getting free charging. But if Lucid still offered free EA charging, and somebody had to decide whether to get a Lucid despite unreliable EA charging, or buy a different car and pay for charging no matter what, it would be fair to say that buying a different car wouldn't be an advantage in that respect, since a Lucid could charge at those other places too, and it wouldn't cost less to charge with a competing car.

I agree with pidcorp's concerns and characterization. We can all agree Lucid makes a great mechanical car but the rest, SW, EA, features (e.g., DDpro, Lidar, etc.) left a lot to be desired. Lucid's pricing (e.g., between an AGT and an Air) says we are paying 10's of thousands of dollars for these features/goodies. Many of these features are (so far) not realized. And there is no communicated plan/schedule to realize these goals in the realistic lifetime of the car. Disappointment = Expectations Not Met. I've complained about EA to Lucid many times. Lucid takes a position "It is EA's problem". I don't think that's a responsible trust-building position on Lucid's part.

I think the Lucid enthusiasts are underestimating the impact of setting/charging high expectations and not delivering (or communicating plans to deliver) to these expectations.

 

[xponents]

I agree with pidcorp's concerns and characterization. We can all agree Lucid makes a great mechanical car but the rest, SW, EA, features (e.g., DDpro, Lidar, etc.) left a lot to be desired. Lucid's pricing (e.g., between an AGT and an Air) says we are paying 10's of thousands of dollars for these features/goodies. Many of these features are (so far) not realized. And there is no communicated plan/schedule to realize these goals in the realistic lifetime of the car. Disappointment = Expectations Not Met. I've complained about EA to Lucid many times. Lucid takes a position "It is EA's problem". I don't think that's a responsible trust-building position on Lucid's part.

I think the Lucid enthusiasts are underestimating the impact of setting/charging high expectations and not delivering (or communicating plans to deliver) to these expectations.

But it IS eas problem.. and I find lucids pricing normal among high end luxury cars.

 

[joec]

Okay. Let’s get serious. Have you lived in the United States long?

Marketing in this country has always relied on over promising and under delivering. That’s how we roll here.

“Unlimited” data on our cell phones, anyone?

Cheap airfares that require to then pay extra just to get a seat. As if it were possible to stand for the entire flight?

We all complain about it, but the reason companies keep doing it is because it works. And more importantly, being honest and upfront doesn’t.

We have no one but ourselves to blame for the state of consumerism. Marketing folks are just doing what’s proven to be most effective.

I give credit to Lucid for finally breaking ties with EA and not replacing it with other unrealistic promises. Many other EV makers are still giving away free EA charging.

 

[borski]

When I got my car, EA was doing great. There were essentially no lines and all the stations I visited worked fine. First charge I ever got on a roadtrip was above 300kw. Then everyone had an EV and everyone had free charging. It definitely wasn't on Lucid when they first started delivering vehicles, they were as honest as could be and put faith in EA to fix the issues.

I’ve had an issue with EA exactly twice in two years of car ownership. I have one year left.

I know EA sucks based on other reports, and it should do better (and seems, on average, they’re making progress), but the two times I have had issues with it have not wrecked my enjoyment of the car in the slightest.

Then again, 95% of my charging is done at home, and I only use EA on road trips, which is the same reason anyone should. It’s not meant to be a home charging replacement, unless you live in an apartment and literally can’t install one.

 

[BS8899]

But it IS eas problem.. and I find lucids pricing normal among high end luxury cars.

That's not the question at hand. Lucid's interior appointment while better than Tesla's, is not in the same class as MB/BMW.

The price difference between an Air and an AGT is approx. $40k, correct? For that, you get EA charging (3 yr), DDPro, Glass roof, and what else?

I presume Lucid PAID EA for the 3 yr free charging. Many of us are not getting this service. Why is Lucid taking a "hands-off" approach?

How about...if a qualified Lucid owner with EA charging privilege is unable to free charge at EA, they can pay for the charge (at EA or another provider) and send the bill to Lucid for reimbursement. That would get Lucid management's attention. Under these circumstances, Lucid will be in a hurry to fix the problem with EA (or go with someone else) vs leaving their customers in frustration.

 

[xponents]

That's not the question at hand. Lucid's interior appointment while better than Tesla's, is not in the same class as MB/BMW.

You know, actually, you’re right! Lucid isn’t in the same class. It’s of an even better class that I find more appealing with the modernist deco(wool and alcantara.. my dream interior manifested in a car)! I liked certain aspects of the i7 better than the lucid for many reasons, but materials are not one of them.

The price difference between an Air and an AGT is approx. $40k, correct? For that, you get EA charging (3 yr), DDPro, Glass roof, and what else?

Power? Range? Battery? And it’s not even close to 40k, all of those options are now optional as well. Battery alone makes up a huge amount of money. An air pure is 77k while the upcoming 2024 grand touring is rumored to be around 100k. 23k for a LOT more range, almost double the power, and the availability of a glass roof? Some people find that worth it. Also, lucids deal with ea expired, I am not sure where you pulled that from.

I presume Lucid PAID EA for the 3 yr free charging. Many of us are not getting this service. Why is Lucid taking a "hands-off" approach?

You are getting it, when it works. That’s all lucid was contractually obligated to do. They have no business on whether it works or not, that’s UP TO EA.

How about...if a qualified Lucid owner with EA charging privilege is unable to free charge at EA, they can pay for the charge (at EA or another provider) and send the bill to Lucid for reimbursement. That would get Lucid management's attention. Under these circumstances, Lucid will be in a hurry to fix the problem with EA (or go with someone else) vs leaving their customers in frustration.

Lol

Lucid already paid ea. Why would they pay more? Many of us do not have much ea problems anyways, and my taycan owning friends are happy with it despite having less range than a golf cart.

 

[BS8899]

Okay. Let’s get serious. Have you lived in the United States long?

Marketing in this country has always relied on over promising and under delivering. That’s how we roll here.

“Unlimited” data on our cell phones, anyone?

Cheap airfares that require to then pay extra just to get a seat. As if it were possible to stand for the entire flight?

We all complain about it, but the reason companies keep doing it is because it works. And more importantly, being honest and upfront doesn’t.

We have no one but ourselves to blame for the state of consumerism. Marketing folks are just doing what’s proven to be most effective.

I give credit to Lucid for finally breaking ties with EA and not replacing it with other unrealistic promises. Many other EV makers are still giving away free EA charging.

The examples you cited are real but absurd. Yes, there are caveats about unlimited data, cheap airfares, et.. But the conditions are spelled out, albeit in fine print. Did Lucid do the same on their promises?

I've done business internationally and lived and worked in several countries outside of the UA. Yes, there are scams everywhere. From my experience, I'd rate Japan/Japanese companies the best. They make mistakes too, but they own up to it and are good at their words!

If your point is, that Lucid/EA is a scam, you made your point!

 

[BS8899]

You know, actually, you’re right! Lucid isn’t in the same class. It’s of an even better class that I find more appealing with the modernist deco(wool and alcantara.. my dream interior manifested in a car)! I liked certain aspects of the i7 better than the lucid for many reasons, but materials are not one of them.

Power? Range? Battery? And it’s not even close to 40k, all of those options are now optional as well. Battery alone makes up a huge amount of money. An air pure is 77k while the upcoming 2024 grand touring is rumored to be around 100k. 23k for a LOT more range, almost double the power, and the availability of a glass roof? Some people find that worth it. Also, lucids deal with ea expired, I am not sure where you pulled that from.

You are getting it, when it works. That’s all lucid was contractually obligated to do. They have no business on whether it works or not, that’s UP TO EA.

Lol

Lucid already paid ea. Why would they pay more? Many of us do not have much ea problems anyways, and my taycan owning friends are happy with it despite having less range than a golf cart.

Not asking Lucid to pay more to EA. If a company contracts another company to service its products, but the service provider does not perform, does the consumer hold the product company responsible?

I've (attempted to ) use EA charging in AZ and CA. I rarely have problems in CA and (almost) always have problems in AZ. I agree the EA issue might be regional. But that doesn't change the argument or the responsibility of Lucid.

 

[xponents]

The examples you cited are real but absurd. Yes, there are caveats about unlimited data, cheap airfares, et.. But the conditions are spelled out, albeit in fine print. Did Lucid do the same on their promises?

I’m sorry, was there a condition in lucids fine print that said “EA will always work?” Yeah, there isn’t. Always assume in terms of the law.

 

[BS8899]

I’m sorry, was there a condition in lucids fine print that said “EA will always work?” Yeah, there isn’t. Always assume in terms of the law.

I’m sorry, was there a condition in lucids fine print that said “EA will always work?” Yeah, there isn’t. Always assume in terms of the law.

We are not talking about "always works". We are talking about "not working most of the time in certain areas".

Let me use a proxy, an airline lost your luggage. Do you hold the airline responsible or do you have to pursue the issue with the luggage handling company on your own? Your contract is with Lucid, not with EA.

As I said before I don't usually have EA charging problems with EA in CA. However, I have persistent problems with EA in AZ. Yes, EA's problem is regional, but it is a problem.

 

[borski]

Let me use a proxy, an airline lost your luggage. Do you hold the airline responsible or do you have to pursue the issue with the luggage handling company on your own?

There is no “luggage handling company.” You’d hold the airline responsible because they are the carrier responsible for your luggage.

However, if your luggage has been transferred to a separate carrier, yes, you’d hold that carrier responsible after that point.

Your contract is with Lucid, not with EA.

No, it isn’t. My Lucid contract has no bearing on whether EA works well or not. I am provided with access to charge at EA for free. Whether the charging works or not is an EA issue, and I’d have to take it up with them.

That is literally true, no matter how much you’d like it not to be.

 

[BS8899]

There is no “luggage handling company.” You’d hold the airline responsible because they are the carrier responsible for your luggage.

However, if your luggage has been transferred to a separate carrier, yes, you’d hold that carrier responsible after that point.


No, it isn’t. My Lucid contract has no bearing on whether EA works well or not. I am provided with access to charge at EA for free. Whether the charging works or not is an EA issue, and I’d have to take it up with them.

That is literally true, no matter how much you’d like it not to be.

I'd like a trained business contract lawyer to help us better understand:

> Free EA charging is part of the Lucid pricing and paid for by the purchaser to Lucid, correct?
> If the 3rd party/subcontractor (contracted and paid for by Lucid) is unable to fulfill this obligation, does Lucid have any obligations to the purchaser?
> Is the contract for the buyer to simply have "access" to EA or the actual delivery of the service (vis-a-vis, charging) necessary?
> If neither Lucid nor EA is interested in fulfilling this obligation, can the purchaser use another service provider (e.g., EVGo) and get reimbursement from Lucid?

Can anyone in the forum educate us?

 

[Lucken]

Oh no, please don’t tell me we’re headed to another class action suit threat. I’m taking cover.

 

[xponents]

Oh no, please don’t tell me we’re headed to another class action suit threat. I’m taking cover.

Don't worry, @Bobby and a few others are filing class actions against people who do class actions! Want to join? Surely, if these are legitimate suits, then ours is as well!

 

[no gas]

I agree with pidcorp's concerns and characterization. We can all agree Lucid makes a great mechanical car but the rest, SW, EA, features (e.g., DDpro, Lidar, etc.) left a lot to be desired. Lucid's pricing (e.g., between an AGT and an Air) says we are paying 10's of thousands of dollars for these features/goodies. Many of these features are (so far) not realized. And there is no communicated plan/schedule to realize these goals in the realistic lifetime of the car. Disappointment = Expectations Not Met. I've complained about EA to Lucid many times. Lucid takes a position "It is EA's problem". I don't think that's a responsible trust-building position on Lucid's part.

I think the Lucid enthusiasts are underestimating the impact of setting/charging high expectations and not delivering (or communicating plans to deliver) to these expectations.

Mmmm....what about Tesla FSD buyers? They have been waiting more than half a decade for Robotaxis but still level 2. I think that is worse. Musk himself came out and said Robotaxis will be here by the end of the year in 2019. I would rather have a safe system than a rushed out system.

Lucid said it could charge up to 350KW, I wouldn't say they were misleading, depends on the charger. Other companies offer EA charging for free as well. There just wasn't a better alternative and maybe they thought EA would have sorted out their issues by now. There is nothing Lucid can do about it.

I don't care about autonomous driving, car handles so well I want to be the one driving it!

 

[BS8899]

Don't worry, @Bobby and a few others are filing class actions against people who do class actions! Want to join? Surely, if these are legitimate suits, then ours is as well!

The issue herein is not so much about Class-Action. It is about Lucid's company philosophy and value.

Rather than talking ether, let's calibrate with real data,

Lucid missed all of its delivery goals, revenue goals, etc..
Rawlinson made $379M last year, second highest compensation of all CEOs!
LCID dropped 94% from its peak!
Current delivery run rate will never sustain the company.
It is selling a hope that everyone in Arabia will buy a Lucid and save the day.


Perhaps the focus should be more in customer satisfaction and deliver what it promised.

Comparison with Tesla is a morbid exercise as Tesla was/is not exactly a leader in customer service and quality. FSD (and now the recall) is not something Lucid wants to repeat. Tesla survived the early years because it was the pioneer. They had the benefit of time and no competition to work through their issues. Now, it is different!

If Lucid were to succeed, how about doing the basics right....deliver what is promised, even if it late, communicate a timeline. Set realistic expectations. Focus on the basics and listen to customers.