Torn between Model S Plaid and Lucid Touring.

[hmp10]

My Model S seems extremely comfortable and everyone that has driven with me has thought the same. So, if Lucid is even more comfortable that will be great!

Our Model S Plaid is quite comfortable in the front seats, although we do find the Lucid seats more cosseting, especially with their wider range of adjustments including the very useful thigh support extension.

It's in the back seat, though, where the differences become huge. With the driver seat in my preferred position in both our Plaid and our Air Dream, there is 9.5" more fore-aft legroom in the rear of the Lucid. In terms of car interiors, that is a vast difference. When carrying more than two adults, we invariably opt for the Lucid over the Tesla, which is one of the reasons we're racking up more mileage on the Air than the Lucid.

While both cars jack your knees up too much in the rear due to the battery modules under the floor, the bend angle of the knees is less in the Air because of the longer reach. (This is countered somewhat by the Tesla having room to slip your toes under the front seat a bit whereas the Lucid doesn't, at least with the larger battery pack. But the knee angle is still more relaxed in the Air.) And with the smaller battery pack of the Touring and the Pure, the Air's rear seating comfort moves into MB S Class and BMW 7 Series territory. (I've sat in an Air with the smaller battery pack at a Lucid Design Studio, and it was eye-poppingly roomy and comfortable for a car of its exterior dimensions.)

 

[BobFM]

In my view, to each their own. People have to make their own decisions and decide what's best for them. For me, the interior quality of my Lucid GT far outpaces any Tesla offering right now. Also, the back seat size is significantly more roomy, which is important for long trips in the car for my family and friends. That said, the Tesla charging network is a huge plus relative to other offerings...

Funny enough, on Sunday, a couple parked right across from me in their Model S Plaid and definitely took a minute or two to take a look at my GT. More options for people to buy is definitely a plus for EV's long-term...

 

[HariK]

I replaced the Plaid with a Touring and it was a decision that I made without ever setting foot in a Lucid. After having it for 3 weeks, I miss a lot of things about the S, but I'm enjoying the Lucid. The software is a bit buggy, but I'm hopeful they will fix it in due time. In terms of interior and exterior, the Lucid is superior. Tesla is more mature software and features wise.

I made the decision to buy Air Pure AWD without driving any Lucid or Tesla. As an engineer who is very well aware of embedded software, I know that software can be improved with all the right sensors but it is not easy to add sensors or physical buttons. As per acceleration, just as I expected the Air Pure lowest RWD also is way more than most people had with any ICE car in the past.

 

[abbas2099]

This has been our experience, too. Our 2021 Model S Plaid was delivered with more initial quality issues than our 2015 Model S P90D. And, with about 14,000 miles on the odometer, our Plaid has developed body noises that our 2015 Tesla never did in six years. Only the software improved with the newer model, but it has not been exactly flawless, often failing to recognize the key fob for starting the car although it recognized the fob for opening the doors -- and it sometimes doesn't even do that without using the key card.

Agreed… one big reason is that the car has so much torque that over time, the body will start to flex creating those body noises. I had a P100D and those creaking noises started to come out around 70k miles. You could feel the body of the car flex specially around corners then things began to rattle in the car. Again, if you plan on keeping the car on a short term basis, you will probably have less issues than me.

You have to take a car company that until a few month ago had no need to improve their car’s quality. Their stock kept going up no matter how the cars were made. It was bound to catch up with them at some point. For me, the frustration of the Tesla service centers trying to charge me money for warranty work was getting to be too much. My last service before I sold the car was after months of Tesla denying that my car had any issues ( when it was still under warranty), all the convenience features, ABS, air suspension, traction control,… went out on the car. The car refused to go in drive. I managed to somehow get to go into drive and drove it straight to a service center. Took them 2 months to ’fix’ the car. Charged me $3,500. I get my car back only to have the same issues come back one week later and I took it right back again. During that week my car was NOT driven and sat in my driveway as my Lucid was already delivered. They fixed it for free but were trying to tell me that the car took a heavy impact on It’s front bumper . Needless to say, I sold the car the following week.

 

[hmp10]

Agreed… one big reason is that the car has so much torque that over time, the body will start to flex creating those body noises.

Another reason is that the Model S has always had lower torsional stiffness than other cars of similar size. Peter Rawlinson thought that was a problem even while at Tesla and attributed it to the hatchback design. (He was not allowed to modify the body design that had already been locked down before he arrived.) He has given that as the main reason he opted for a traditional trunk in the Air to allow for a structural beam connecting the C pillars at mid height.

Our Plaid began to develop subtle squeaks and groans behind the rear seats shy of the 10,000-mile mark on the odometer. Our Air, now nearing 15,000 miles and driven on the same roads, remains rock solid.

 

[borski]

Lately, much of this hate toward Elon you read from people (not just here) is unfortunately based on politics. In addition to his incredibly successful ventures you already mentioned, his Starlink system has helped people in impoverished countries as well as aiding communication in the Ukraine.

Careful with the “success worship”; someone can do great things and still be a bad influence overall, or be detestable. I’m not even saying Musk is, since my opinion is somewhat irrelevant to this argument, but “being successful and building new things” does not absolve someone, especially by default, from being a bad influence or detestable human being.

That applies to everyone, not just Musk, and there are countless examples throughout history of people who have done great things but are remembered quite poorly anyway.

 

[DJL]

Credit where credit is due, Tesla kicked off the EV revolution, but their cars leave much to be desired. They left the window open for Porsche, MB, Lucid to produce premium vehicles for those who are seeking a more luxurious experience in EV ownership.

Every car has its pros and cons and must be weighed for the individual use of the owner.

This thread has gotten skewed a little towards a little more subjective negativity instead of the objective comparisons between the two cars/brands. Let's try and push it back towards that and leave the controversial politics aside. I know it is a factor in the decision process, but name calling of certain CEOs is uncalled for on both sides. Let's keep this conversation above keel and offer potential future owners a more objective comparison between the cars.

Good point. I have read in this forum negative things siad about both Elon and Peter. It is not just one sided but I agree with you, such comments are not constructive.

 

[borski]

Good point. I have read in this forum negative things siad about both Elon and Peter. It is not just one sided but I agree with you, such comments are not constructive.

Agreed. I hope mine wasn’t taken to be bashing Elon, as that wasn’t my goal. I was simply trying to address the much more general “…but he/she did these three important and useful things” myth that pervades entrepreneurship and attempts to give people a “pass” based on their prior successes.

I’d apply that to Peter and anyone else as well; prior or future success is not absolution.

 

[hmp10]

Agreed. I hope mine wasn’t taken to be bashing Elon, as that wasn’t my goal. I was simply trying to address the much more general “…but he/she did these three important and useful things” myth that pervades entrepreneurship and attempts to give people a “pass” based on their prior successes.

I’d apply that to Peter and anyone else as well; prior or future success is not absolution.

Henry Ford is credited with creating the industrial assembly line and with putting America on wheels. Less is remembered, though, about his deployment of the "time and motion" studies of Frederick Taylor (known in labor and industrial history as "Taylorism") which did much to dehumanize factory work and undermine the concept of personal craftsmanship. Much of the American labor union movement of the early 20th-century drew its energy from the work conditions imposed by the over-zealous imposition of Taylorism.

And, as Ford's wealth and fame grew, he soon convinced himself that that should give him a powerful megaphone in statecraft and diplomacy. Beginning with his dip into diplomacy with the 1915 "Peace Ship" misadventure (which ended with most people on board falling ill instead of ending World War I), he soon moved on to propagating anti-Semitism with his newspaper, "The Dearborn Independent", in which he blamed "international Jewry" for every modern evil from the Russian Revolution to bootleg liquor to bad movies. He then published a book, The International Jew: The World's Foremost Problem, which was translated into 16 languages and became key reading in the Nazi movement in Germany, alongside The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, a fabrication by the ultranationalist "Black Hundred" in tsarist Russia that was secretly financed and distributed by the tsar's secret police and led to the murderous Odessa pogroms of 1905-07. (This latter book, supposedly lifting the lid on gory Jewish child murder rituals, has been resurrected and is now in circulation in some recesses of American politics.)

Unfortunately, and especially since his foray into Twitter, I see so many parallels between Ford and Musk and their moves from business into the political sphere.

Elon Musk is using his car company, both financially and reputationaly, as the launching pad for his headlong rush to the forefront of American political discourse and diplomacy. I do not see why the latter should be off limits when discussing the former. He has drawn the line from one to the other himself.

However, in terms of keeping this forum from going down the political rabbit hole, I think the rule should be that when Tesla cars are discussed, the discussion should stay about cars. But when Musk himself is brought into the discussion, the full range of who he is should be on the table in terms of allowable responses.

 

[Lucken]

Careful with the “success worship”; someone can do great things and still be a bad influence overall, or be detestable. I’m not even saying Musk is, since my opinion is somewhat irrelevant to this argument, but “being successful and building new things” does not absolve someone, especially by default, from being a bad influence or detestable human being.

That applies to everyone, not just Musk, and there are countless examples throughout history of people who have done great things but are remembered quite poorly anyway.

I don’t think the discussion centered around whether Musk should be elevated to sainthood or descend to the depths of hell. My comments were directed at his accomplishments, which like him or not, are both numerous and impressive. I would not buy another Tesla, but that has nothing whatever to do with Elon.

I will say that I’ve seen many many people change their opinion of the man (including Tesla fanboys) with his takeover of Twitter. I’m certain I have a very different opinion on this than most here, so we’ll leave it at that.

 

[SaratogaLefty]

I don’t think the discussion centered around whether Musk should be elevated to sainthood or descend to the depths of hell. My comments were directed at his accomplishments, which like him or not, are both numerous and impressive. I would not buy another Tesla, but that has nothing whatever to do with Elon.

I will say that I’ve seen many many people change their opinion of the man (including Tesla fanboys) with his takeover of Twitter. I’m certain I have a very different opinion on this than most here, so we’ll leave it at that.

Which Lucid model do you have on order?

 

[GM!]

Not sure if this has been posted elsewhere, but a nice review. apologies if this is a duplicate post.

2023 Lucid Air Touring First Test Review: Less Spendy, Still Superb?

Does the mid-range Air Touring start making the more expensive models harder to justify?

www.motortrend.com

 

[joec]

Not sure if this has been posted elsewhere, but a nice review. apologies if this is a duplicate post.

2023 Lucid Air Touring First Test Review: Less Spendy, Still Superb?

Does the mid-range Air Touring start making the more expensive models harder to justify?

www.motortrend.com

I had not seen that. Thank you.

It's about time Touring started getting more press. Still a slow trickle thus far.

 

[DeaneG]

..It's about time Touring started getting more press. Still a slow trickle thus far.

I'm hoping the amount of media that places the Air at $160-250K, without mention of other variants, will reduce soon.

 

[Lucken]

Which Lucid model do you have on order?

A RWD Pure that I reserved in January 2021. My forum join date is a bit of a giveaway.

 

[HariK]

Agreed… one big reason is that the car has so much torque that over time, the body will start to flex creating those body noises. I had a P100D and those creaking noises started to come out around 70k miles. You could feel the body of the car flex specially around corners then things began to rattle in the car. Again, if you plan on keeping the car on a short term basis, you will probably have less issues than me.

You have to take a car company that until a few month ago had no need to improve their car’s quality. Their stock kept going up no matter how the cars were made. It was bound to catch up with them at some point. For me, the frustration of the Tesla service centers trying to charge me money for warranty work was getting to be too much. My last service before I sold the car was after months of Tesla denying that my car had any issues ( when it was still under warranty), all the convenience features, ABS, air suspension, traction control,… went out on the car. The car refused to go in drive. I managed to somehow get to go into drive and drove it straight to a service center. Took them 2 months to ’fix’ the car. Charged me $3,500. I get my car back only to have the same issues come back one week later and I took it right back again. During that week my car was NOT driven and sat in my driveway as my Lucid was already delivered. They fixed it for free but were trying to tell me that the car took a heavy impact on It’s front bumper . Needless to say, I sold the car the following week.

"Their stock kept going up no matter how the cars were made. It was bound to catch up with them at some point."

It became a Meme stock at one point with PE of 600 and now PE is 36 which is also too much. The max PE I would give Tesla or any growth tech stock of a well established company is about 25% over S & P 500 index. That would put it at about 25. Stocks like Tesla have even skewed S & P 500 PE too much.

 

[joec]

"Their stock kept going up no matter how the cars were made. It was bound to catch up with them at some point."

It became a Meme stock at one point with PE of 600 and now PE is 36 which is also too much. The max PE I would give Tesla or any growth tech stock of a well established company is about 25% over S & P 500 index. That would put it at about 25. Stocks like Tesla have even skewed S & P 500 PE too much.

I’ve been telling friends to get out of TSLA for years. They kept laughing, and rightfully so. Right up until last year.

 

[Lucidfan22]

I know a lot of people keep bringing up the Tesla super charger network. But keep in mind that Tesla is opening their super chargers to everyone to tap into the subsidy from the government. Some chargers are already converted over and being opened to non-Tesla owners.(Definitely the case in Europe and some chargers in California)

Mercedes Benz is also planing to launch and open their own charging network in the next few years. I know presently Tesla's charging network seems like a huge bonus, but it's only a matter of few months before Lucid can take advantage of the same charging network.

 

[DeaneG]

I know a lot of people keep bringing up the Tesla super charger network. But keep in mind that Tesla is opening their super chargers to everyone to tap into the subsidy from the government. Some chargers are already converted over and being opened to non-Tesla owners.(Definitely the case in Europe and some chargers in California)

Mercedes Benz is also planing to launch and open their own charging network in the next few years. I know presently Tesla's charging network seems like a huge bonus, but it's only a matter of few months before Lucid can take advantage of the same charging network.

Europe is a different case as the EU forced Tesla to use the CCS2 standard in their cars.The last I've heard about Tesla's opening their USA chargers to CCS vehicles was Tesla's attempt to get EV manufacturers to switch to Tesla's connector by calling it a "standard". There are rumors that Tesla's V4 supercharger may be CCS compatible, perhaps with an adapter, but no confirmation or installations in the USA that I am aware of.

 

[Lucidfan22]

Europe is a different case as the EU forced Tesla to use the CCS2 standard in their cars.The last I've heard about Tesla's opening their USA chargers to CCS vehicles was Tesla's attempt to get EV manufacturers to switch to Tesla's connector by calling it a "standard". There are rumors that Tesla's V4 supercharger may be CCS compatible, perhaps with an adapter, but no confirmation or installations in the USA that I am aware of.

I thought there were some chargers in California that offered this already? And I also thought Tesla's destination charger was open as of now. I think destination chargers are slower than super chargers. But my research maybe incomplete or wrong.

Nonetheless, once it does open up to non-Tesla owners, Tesla's charging network advantage would be a moot point.