Torn between Model S Plaid and Lucid Touring.

[DeaneG]

I thought there were some chargers in California that offered this already? And I also thought Tesla's destination charger was open as of now. I think destination chargers are slower than super chargers. But my research maybe incomplete or wrong.

Nonetheless, once it does open up to non-Tesla owners, Tesla's charging network advantage would be a moot point.

Destination chargers are level 2 (AC) chargers that max out at 19.6kW or less, the same maximum as a J1772 level 2 charger, but with Tesla's connector. Superchargers and CCS stations are level 3 (DC) chargers that are generally capable of 50-350kW.

I have no inside knowledge, but am guessing that Tesla has no business reason to add CCS capability to their charging stations, and will not do this any time soon, regardless of what they've said once or twice in the past.

 

[Lucken]

I know a lot of people keep bringing up the Tesla super charger network. But keep in mind that Tesla is opening their super chargers to everyone to tap into the subsidy from the government. Some chargers are already converted over and being opened to non-Tesla owners.(Definitely the case in Europe and some chargers in California)

Mercedes Benz is also planing to launch and open their own charging network in the next few years. I know presently Tesla's charging network seems like a huge bonus, but it's only a matter of few months before Lucid can take advantage of the same charging network.

Don’t hold your breath. Remember the definition of ’Elon time’.

 

[Adnillien]

Destination chargers are level 2 (AC) chargers that max out at 19.6kW or less, the same maximum as a J1772 level 2 charger, but with Tesla's connector. Superchargers and CCS stations are level 3 (DC) chargers that are generally capable of 50-350kW.

I have no inside knowledge, but am guessing that Tesla has no business reason to add CCS capability to their charging stations, and will not do this any time soon, regardless of what they've said once or twice in the past.

I do not know the specs on version 4 Tesla chargers but the version 3 Tesla DC chargers are 400-500 volts and do not support the 1000 volts required for CCS and our Lucid airs. Tesla needs to do much more than just add a different connector to their existing chargers to enable CCS charging. Using 400 volt chargers, our Lucid Airs will have to do a DC to DC up conversion to charge our 700 to 900 volt batteries and that conversion is limited to 50 kW.

 

[Tesla2.0]

Not sure if this has been posted elsewhere, but a nice review. apologies if this is a duplicate post.

2023 Lucid Air Touring First Test Review: Less Spendy, Still Superb?

Does the mid-range Air Touring start making the more expensive models harder to justify?

www.motortrend.com

This is a great review for Air Touring! Its specs surpassed my expectation. My personal opinion is doesn’t matter which trim you pick, you can’t go wrong with either.

 

[Tesla2.0]

While Elon is being critiqued, I wanted to say I really admire his accolades of being successful serial entrepreneurs (discounted last year). I originally was debating MB S-Class, Model-S or Model-X, so how did I ended up getting a Lucid Air GT?

1 - I wanted range. I see it as luxury if I can frequent less at fast charging stations.

2 - I thought if I pay 6 figures for a car, I might as well get something unique. Tesla was becoming ubiquitous in my city.

3 - I fall love with Lucid cabin and cockpit design.

4 - I like to root for underdogs. Being an entrepreneur myself, I want to see other startups succeed. Tesla has plenty patrons, Lucid with such narrow market can use my support.

I originally reserved a Touring, but after learning Air received MotorTrend 2022 Car of Year, I went back to change to Dream Edition, but alas the reservation was closed in front of me. I ended up getting GT and asked to be on DE wait list if anyone fall out. In the end, I got delivered Air GT.

NO REGRET! BEST EV HARDWARE EVER!

 

[DeaneG]

I do not know the specs on version 4 Tesla chargers but the version 3 Tesla DC chargers are 400-500 volts and do not support the 1000 volts required for CCS and our Lucid airs. Tesla needs to do much more than just add a different connector to their existing chargers to enable CCS charging. Using 400 volt chargers, our Lucid Airs will have to do a DC to DC up conversion to charge our 700 to 900 volt batteries and that conversion is limited to 50 kW.

Agreed, after seeing the "NACS" spec, which does include connector changes to accommodate 1000v operation, I'm hopeful that v4 chargers will include 1000v compliance. Even if they do, this wouldn't indicate that Tesla will ever accommodate CCS.

 

[hydbob]

Agreed, after seeing the "NACS" spec, which does include connector changes to accommodate 1000v operation, I'm hopeful that v4 chargers will include 1000v compliance. Even if they do, this wouldn't indicate that Tesla will ever accommodate CCS.

No CCS, no mula

 

[Cosmo Cruz]

I have a Lucid Touring booked getting close to delivery.

You should go back on your word and get the shitty car.

 

[JillyBean]

I know a lot of people keep bringing up the Tesla super charger network. But keep in mind that Tesla is opening their super chargers to everyone to tap into the subsidy from the government. Some chargers are already converted over and being opened to non-Tesla owners.(Definitely the case in Europe and some chargers in California)

Mercedes Benz is also planing to launch and open their own charging network in the next few years. I know presently Tesla's charging network seems like a huge bonus, but it's only a matter of few months before Lucid can take advantage of the same charging network.

The infrastructure that Mercedes needs to compete with the superchargers build….it’s probably a five years away to compete.

 

[JillyBean]

I’ve been telling friends to get out of TSLA for years. They kept laughing, and rightfully so. Right up until last year.

Well, then you should be telling your friends to get out of lucid stock because it’s very much tied to how the Tesla stock is doing if you follow the analytics

I’ve been telling friends to get out of TSLA for years. They kept laughing, and rightfully so. Right up until last year.

well, then you should tell your friends to get out of lucid stock because if you follow the analytics, it’s very much connected to how TSLA is doing

 

[hmp10]

I'm wondering if the worry about availability of DC fast chargers isn't masking a deeper problem: the lack of power generation capacity for a significantly expanded fleet of EVs on the road. Places with high EV adoption rates such as California are already experiencing rolling brownouts due to power demand exceeding supply. Bringing more generating capacity on line is a much bigger and longer task than building more EV charging stations, and it will be as much an issue for home charging -- where the majority of EV charging is done -- as for roadside charging.

 

[hydbob]

I'm wondering if the worry about availability of DC fast chargers isn't masking a deeper problem: the lack of power generation capacity for a significantly expanded fleet of EVs on the road. Places with high EV adoption rates such as California are already experiencing rolling brownouts due to power demand exceeding supply. Bringing more generating capacity on line is a much bigger and longer task than building more EV charging stations, and it will be as much an issue for home charging -- where the majority of EV charging is done -- as for roadside charging.

We had rolling brownouts due to EV charging? I only remember brownouts when we had that summer heat wave, but that's typical of every hot summer.

 

[hmp10]

We had rolling brownouts due to EV charging? I only remember brownouts when we had that summer heat wave, but that's typical of every hot summer.

I didn't mean to attribute California's brownouts specifically to EV adoption. I was saying that the grid there is already under stress and, with California's high EV adoption rate, more EVs on the road will exacerbate the situation unless generating capacity can expand.

Here in Florida we're also beginning to see stress on our grid, often due to weather events temporarily taking out capacity that has to be backfilled from other generation plants that, in turn, stresses the grid. And Florida has the second highest EV adoption rate in the U.S., behind California.

 

[hmp10]

We had rolling brownouts due to EV charging? I only remember brownouts when we had that summer heat wave, but that's typical of every hot summer.

I think this article more clearly captures what I was trying to say. EVs need not break the grid, but it will require big efforts to increase generating capacity. I'm just worried that, given the long planning and regulatory review cycles of such projects, there aren't enough already on the drawing boards if, as promised, companies like Ford and GM will cease to make ICE vehicles in the coming decade.

Why Electric Vehicles Won't Break the Grid

Though conservatives have attacked California officials for asking electric vehicle owners to unplug during a heat wave, experts say more electric cars won’t topple the power grid

www.scientificamerican.com

 

[DeaneG]

No CCS, no mula

Tesla's free cash flow for Q3/Q4 2022 was approximately the same amount as the entire federal funding allocated for CCS charging subsidies over the next five years. I wouldn't be surprised if they don't have enough interest in the $ to bother bending their business plan.

 

[DeaneG]

I think this article more clearly captures what I was trying to say. EVs need not break the grid, but it will require big efforts to increase generating capacity. I'm just worried that, given the long planning and regulatory review cycles of such projects, there aren't enough already on the drawing boards if, as promised, companies like Ford and GM will cease to make ICE vehicles in the coming decade.

Why Electric Vehicles Won't Break the Grid

Though conservatives have attacked California officials for asking electric vehicle owners to unplug during a heat wave, experts say more electric cars won’t topple the power grid

www.scientificamerican.com

Plans will be made, power will be generated and distributed. It'll be a messy, uneven process. There weren't enough gasoline refineries or proper roads in 1920 to deal with the Model T either.

 

[hydbob]

I think this article more clearly captures what I was trying to say. EVs need not break the grid, but it will require big efforts to increase generating capacity. I'm just worried that, given the long planning and regulatory review cycles of such projects, there aren't enough already on the drawing boards if, as promised, companies like Ford and GM will cease to make ICE vehicles in the coming decade.

Why Electric Vehicles Won't Break the Grid

Though conservatives have attacked California officials for asking electric vehicle owners to unplug during a heat wave, experts say more electric cars won’t topple the power grid

www.scientificamerican.com

I think all it will take is a shift in charging during the day. Which is a tough ask, but I believe with utilities already pushing towards raising rates during the night, more people will charge during the day where generation is plentiful due to the solar capacity we already have in place.

 

[SDHacker]

I'm wondering if the worry about availability of DC fast chargers isn't masking a deeper problem: the lack of power generation capacity for a significantly expanded fleet of EVs on the road. Places with high EV adoption rates such as California are already experiencing rolling brownouts due to power demand exceeding supply. Bringing more generating capacity on line is a much bigger and longer task than building more EV charging stations, and it will be as much an issue for home charging -- where the majority of EV charging is done -- as for roadside charging.

That’s what Mr Toyoda stated - American infrastructure isn’t ready for a massive shift to EVs. In parts of CA, inadequate high voltage transmission lines limits the ability to import electricity and the push to eliminate nonrenewable generation limits where we get that electricity

 

[off]

I think all it will take is a shift in charging during the day. Which is a tough ask, but I believe with utilities already pushing towards raising rates during the night, more people will charge during the day where generation is plentiful due to the solar capacity we already have in place.

This is pretty much what PG&E are pushing for to alieviate grid issues. Even getting to the point of creating infrastructure for the consumer to sell back stored power in their EV's.

 

[KySerenity]

Agreed, after seeing the "NACS" spec, which does include connector changes to accommodate 1000v operation, I'm hopeful that v4 chargers will include 1000v compliance. Even if they do, this wouldn't indicate that Tesla will ever accommodate CCS.

I read somewhere that Tesla would get government financial support if they opened up their chargers to at least one other EV. Aptera uses the Tesla plug, not CCS. Opening the Tesla superchargers to Aptera may fulfill the Fed requirement and provide funding to Tesla without providing access to EVs using the CCS standard.