How Much Range Are You Actually Getting?

[hydbob]

I think you hinted at it - the idea is not to hit too high or low. Too lazy to Google but what’s the logic behind not going 0 or 100%? Not that anyone should be aiming for 0% from a planning perspective but why not top off? As a theory, does anyone know if there are any built-in battery buffers (eg 100% is actually 110%)?

Most Li-ions charge to 4.20V/cell, and every reduction in peak charge voltage of 0.10V/cell is said to double the cycle life. For example, a lithium-ion cell charged to 4.20V/cell typically delivers 300–500 cycles. If charged to only 4.10V/cell, the life can be prolonged to 600–1,000 cycles; 4.0V/cell should deliver 1,200–2,000 and 3.90V/cell should provide 2,400–4,000 cycles.

On the negative side, a lower peak charge voltage reduces the capacity the battery stores. As a simple guideline, every 70mV reduction in charge voltage lowers the overall capacity by 10 percent. Applying the peak charge voltage on a subsequent charge will restore the full capacity.

In terms of longevity, the optimal charge voltage is 3.92V/cell. Battery experts believe that this threshold eliminates all voltage-related stresses;

See this article https://batteryuniversity.com/artic...re and high currents,at a high charge voltage.

Long story short, to best prolong your batteries keep them between 60-70% charge as that will net you the most charge cycles.

 

[Sam6062]

I think you hinted at it - the idea is not to hit too high or low. Too lazy to Google but what’s the logic behind not going 0 or 100%? Not that anyone should be aiming for 0% from a planning perspective but why not top off? As a theory, does anyone know if there are any built-in battery buffers (eg 100% is actually 110%)?

According to the Delivery guy it is to preserve the degradation of the battery. Like you said perhaps the battery is working extra hard to get that final 10% and gets extremely hot. He also suggested not to use the high speed chargers every time because of the same reason, heating up of the battery pack.

Also I believe @bunnylebowski had said that at 100% charge you lose the regen because there is nowhere to put that regen power back. So I believe the 90-10 may be the ideal setting to get best of both worlds.

 

[GEWC]

View attachment 3175

I was telling my wife about this legendary Lucid driver named @GEWC who could coax every possible mile per kWh out of her car. She wants to take lessons.

Also, say Hi! to the best part of the Auburn mall these days.

Lol, too funny. I am happy to give her lessons next time I make it back. Perhaps I should make some videos.

 

[Bunnylebowski]

Also I believe @bunnylebowski had said that at 100% charge you lose the regen because there is nowhere to put that regen power back. So I believe the 90-10 may be the ideal setting to get best of both worlds.

I was concerned about that, so I charged to 99% and actually had full regen just like at any other SOC%. Maybe at 100% you don’t but at 99% I did.

 

[SaratogaLefty]

Most Li-ions charge to 4.20V/cell, and every reduction in peak charge voltage of 0.10V/cell is said to double the cycle life. For example, a lithium-ion cell charged to 4.20V/cell typically delivers 300–500 cycles. If charged to only 4.10V/cell, the life can be prolonged to 600–1,000 cycles; 4.0V/cell should deliver 1,200–2,000 and 3.90V/cell should provide 2,400–4,000 cycles.

On the negative side, a lower peak charge voltage reduces the capacity the battery stores. As a simple guideline, every 70mV reduction in charge voltage lowers the overall capacity by 10 percent. Applying the peak charge voltage on a subsequent charge will restore the full capacity.

In terms of longevity, the optimal charge voltage is 3.92V/cell. Battery experts believe that this threshold eliminates all voltage-related stresses;

See this article https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-808-how-to-prolong-lithium-based-batteries#:~:text=Elevated temperature and high currents,at a high charge voltage.

Long story short, to best prolong your batteries keep them between 60-70% charge as that will net you the most charge cycles.

I'm wondering if there is any advantage to using the 150Kw chargers vs. the 350Kw chargers? I don't find the time difference all that great and my local EA charger only has the 150Kw available and it usually charges below 120Kw. Typically 7-5 miles/minute.

 

[hydbob]

I'm wondering if there is any advantage to using the 150Kw chargers vs. the 350Kw chargers? I don't find the time difference all that great and my local EA charger only has the 150Kw available and it usually charges below 120Kw. Typically 7-5 miles/minute.

It's probably best to NOT use the 350kw if you have the extra time since the difference levels out after the first 10 minutes? (Forgot the exact curve) but here is an excerpt from that paper regarding the temp effect on the cells.

Lithium-ion suffers from stress when exposed to heat, so does keeping a cell at a high charge voltage. A battery dwelling above 30°C (86°F) is considered elevated temperature and for most Li-ion a voltage above 4.10V/cell is deemed as high voltage. Exposing the battery to high temperature and dwelling in a full state-of-charge for an extended time can be more stressful than cycling.

The 350Kw chargers will definitely elevate that temp much quicker than the 150Kw in the first 10 minutes.

 

[MorganB]

I don’t think it is that great anywhere except California. In Dallas they have two in the boonies and since they are an hour away I personally do not know if they really exist. EA did respond to my Tweet a couple of weeks back that they will consider Dallas.

Electrify America plans to add 8 to 12 locations in the DFW metro area in Cycle 3 (Jan 2022 - July 2024). They will also build out stations east bound from Dallas on I-30 and I-20. Further details in the PDFs here:

Our Zero Emission Vehicle Investment Plan| Electrify America

Between 2017 and 2027, Electrify America will have invested $2 billion in Zero Emission Vehicle (ZEV) infrastructure, access, and education in the U.S.

www.electrifyamerica.com

 

[thecodingart]

I don’t think it is that great anywhere except California. In Dallas they have two in the boonies and since they are an hour away I personally do not know if they really exist. EA did respond to my Tweet a couple of weeks back that they will consider Dallas.

Not sure what you mean. They’re pretty abundant on the East Coast, especially in Florida.

 

[Steveinarizona]

If going off Pure #s and not using top or bottom 20%, the range left is 183. I don’t know if that’s good or bad but I guess that’s kind of nonsense to not use the top/bottom 20% when going on longer trips, which would net around 300.

80% of 400 is 320. 75% of 320 is 240. How do you get to 183?

 

[n8236]

80% of 400 is 320. 75% of 320 is 240. How do you get to 183?

407 EPA, 75% of that is 305. Removing 0-20% and 80%-100% for battery maintenance leaves 183, no?

 

[Steveinarizona]

407 EPA, 75% of that is 305. Removing 0-20% and 80%-100% for battery maintenance leaves 183, no?

Gotcha. Keeping above the 20% baseline. That makes sense.

But. of course, one should apply the same logic to every BEV except, perhaps, a lesser reduction for driving as one can't drive some of those BEVs spiritedly.

 

[Maverick]

So PHX to San Diego is a bit of a tougher drive than I was expecting. We started out and the Nav was suggesting El Centro. Started at 445 mi in range and would have made it to the EA station there with probably about 50 miles left or so (maybe a little less). But I decided to stop at Dateland (roughly 160 miles), only to find that ALL 3 of the 4 stations weren't working. The one that was was occupied by a Kia that pulled in just in front of me. [NOTE: EA support does answer quickly BUT they really can't do much to help most times]. Fortunately, I had plenty of charge left, so I continued on to the EA Target stop in Yuma. At that point, I started paying a little more attention to range while driving about 78 mph. This is when I expected things to be a bit better, but I think there were two things going against me range-wise...the heat at roughly 110 and the headwind. I got to Yuma with about 115 mi in range left (El Centro would have been another 55 miles or so, so I think I would have been fine.

In Yuma, 3 of the 4 were not working, so I had to wait for about 15 minutes to move into the one working one. It was a 150 and charged me up to 70% or 315 mi in about 30 minutes. It was fine bc we needed to get some stuff from Target. I figured we'd be find going the remaining 182 mi to SD. But for anyone looking to do this drive from PHX to SD, please note that I now had 3 things working against me. The heat at 114 in places, the headwind which was much stronger and the climb as you're approaching SD. The climb was a killer. Though I will say when it started going back down, the regen probably could have just gotten me to my destination as I was able to travel about 20+ miles without losing any range.

At any rate, I stopped at the EA Walmart in El Centro and finally had working EA stations. This allowed me to charge 57 kWh in 20 minutes vs 53 in 30 in Yuma. Nice to see the benefits of a 350. Side note: a Fisker pulled up next to me at the station. Nice looking car. Bottom line is that I think you can make it with one charge from PHX to SD if stopping in El Centro, but even though it was a little under 400 mi to get there, at least with the 21" tires and the climb, I don't think you can get there without charging. My kWh to Yuma was a respectable 3.3. But from Yuma to El Cajon came in at 2.6 and that was only after gaining about 0.3 on the descent. If it wasn't as hot and there wasn't as much of a headwind, I'm sure both would have been better.

A few other notes here:
- The nav did not work great when trying to find other charging stations on the fly. I looked for stations along the route when starting to head into the mountains and nothing returned, but when I finally started heading back down, a bunch returned. In other words, I didn't know where I'd be stopping until a bunch came up starting with El Cajon 25 miles away.
- The Lucid range was in full display on this trip. When we pulled into Dateland, the Kia that pulled in in front of me had planned to charge in Yuma, but he wound up stopping because he didn't think he'd make it. I think this was heat and wind related. As we were charging in Yuma, I saw him pull in again. Given the range issues in having to stop in Dateland, I'm sure he would have had to stop a third time.
- EA, as has been stated before, has to improve their maintenance. If I had decided to go all the way to El Centro and nothing was working, I would have had challenges bc there really did not seem to be anything of the fast charger variety there or anywhere else close, and my range would have been fairly low at that point
- Just so no one confuses the mention of heat above as having difficulties with the AC, we were very comfortable and my wife had to put on a sweater...so suck it .

 

[n8236]

Gotcha. Keeping above the 20% baseline. That makes sense.

But. of course, one should apply the same logic to every BEV except, perhaps, a lesser reduction for driving as one can't drive some of those BEVs spiritedly.

I imagine this use case works best for relatively local commutes. It’s sorta anal-retentive to be keeping with it 100% of the time.

 

[stevelitchfieldpark]

So PHX to San Diego is a bit of a tougher drive than I was expecting. We started out and the Nav was suggesting El Centro. Started at 445 mi in range and would have made it to the EA station there with probably about 50 miles left or so (maybe a little less). But I decided to stop at Dateland (roughly 160 miles), only to find that ALL 3 of the 4 stations weren't working. The one that was was occupied by a Kia that pulled in just in front of me. [NOTE: EA support does answer quickly BUT they really can't do much to help most times]. Fortunately, I had plenty of charge left, so I continued on to the EA Target stop in Yuma. At that point, I started paying a little more attention to range while driving about 78 mph. This is when I expected things to be a bit better, but I think there were two things going against me range-wise...the heat at roughly 110 and the headwind. I got to Yuma with about 115 mi in range left (El Centro would have been another 55 miles or so, so I think I would have been fine.

In Yuma, 3 of the 4 were not working, so I had to wait for about 15 minutes to move into the one working one. It was a 150 and charged me up to 70% or 315 mi in about 30 minutes. It was fine bc we needed to get some stuff from Target. I figured we'd be find going the remaining 182 mi to SD. But for anyone looking to do this drive from PHX to SD, please note that I now had 3 things working against me. The heat at 114 in places, the headwind which was much stronger and the climb as you're approaching SD. The climb was a killer. Though I will say when it started going back down, the regen probably could have just gotten me to my destination as I was able to travel about 20+ miles without losing any range.

At any rate, I stopped at the EA Walmart in El Centro and finally had working EA stations. This allowed me to charge 57 kWh in 20 minutes vs 53 in 30 in Yuma. Nice to see the benefits of a 350. Side note: a Fisker pulled up next to me at the station. Nice looking car. Bottom line is that I think you can make it with one charge from PHX to SD if stopping in El Centro, but even though it was a little under 400 mi to get there, at least with the 21" tires and the climb, I don't think you can get there without charging. My kWh to Yuma was a respectable 3.3. But from Yuma to El Cajon came in at 2.6 and that was only after gaining about 0.3 on the descent. If it wasn't as hot and there wasn't as much of a headwind, I'm sure both would have been better.

A few other notes here:
- The nav did not work great when trying to find other charging stations on the fly. I looked for stations along the route when starting to head into the mountains and nothing returned, but when I finally started heading back down, a bunch returned. In other words, I didn't know where I'd be stopping until a bunch came up starting with El Cajon 25 miles away.
- The Lucid range was in full display on this trip. When we pulled into Dateland, the Kia that pulled in in front of me had planned to charge in Yuma, but he wound up stopping because he didn't think he'd make it. I think this was heat and wind related. As we were charging in Yuma, I saw him pull in again. Given the range issues in having to stop in Dateland, I'm sure he would have had to stop a third time.
- EA, as has been stated before, has to improve their maintenance. If I had decided to go all the way to El Centro and nothing was working, I would have had challenges bc there really did not seem to be anything of the fast charger variety there or anywhere else close, and my range would have been fairly low at that point
- Just so no one confuses the mention of heat above as having difficulties with the AC, we were very comfortable and my wife had to put on a sweater...so suck it .

I make the Phoenix to San Diego trip a lot and believe going the 10 route is the best for electric vehicles. The driving time isn't more than 30 minutes more and sometimes even less with a lot more EA stations on the way.

 

[Maverick]

I make the Phoenix to San Diego trip a lot and believe going the 10 route is the best for electric vehicles. The driving time isn't more than 30 minutes more and sometimes even less with a lot more EA stations on the way.

I think I agree with that...also, I think you are about 40-50 miles closer out there in Litchfield park, so that will help too .

 

[Pete44]

Just had a 4.1 average m/Kw for 100 mile trip from CT to NJ. Watch out @GEWC ! Beauty of NY area is no way to go 85+. Now over 3,000 miles and seeing an improvement in range. The expected range and actual were virtually identical.

 

[Bus Driver]

So PHX to San Diego is a bit of a tougher drive than I was expecting. We started out and the Nav was suggesting El Centro. Started at 445 mi in range and would have made it to the EA station there with probably about 50 miles left or so (maybe a little less). But I decided to stop at Dateland (roughly 160 miles), only to find that ALL 3 of the 4 stations weren't working. The one that was was occupied by a Kia that pulled in just in front of me. [NOTE: EA support does answer quickly BUT they really can't do much to help most times]. Fortunately, I had plenty of charge left, so I continued on to the EA Target stop in Yuma. At that point, I started paying a little more attention to range while driving about 78 mph. This is when I expected things to be a bit better, but I think there were two things going against me range-wise...the heat at roughly 110 and the headwind. I got to Yuma with about 115 mi in range left (El Centro would have been another 55 miles or so, so I think I would have been fine.

In Yuma, 3 of the 4 were not working, so I had to wait for about 15 minutes to move into the one working one. It was a 150 and charged me up to 70% or 315 mi in about 30 minutes. It was fine bc we needed to get some stuff from Target. I figured we'd be find going the remaining 182 mi to SD. But for anyone looking to do this drive from PHX to SD, please note that I now had 3 things working against me. The heat at 114 in places, the headwind which was much stronger and the climb as you're approaching SD. The climb was a killer. Though I will say when it started going back down, the regen probably could have just gotten me to my destination as I was able to travel about 20+ miles without losing any range.

At any rate, I stopped at the EA Walmart in El Centro and finally had working EA stations. This allowed me to charge 57 kWh in 20 minutes vs 53 in 30 in Yuma. Nice to see the benefits of a 350. Side note: a Fisker pulled up next to me at the station. Nice looking car. Bottom line is that I think you can make it with one charge from PHX to SD if stopping in El Centro, but even though it was a little under 400 mi to get there, at least with the 21" tires and the climb, I don't think you can get there without charging. My kWh to Yuma was a respectable 3.3. But from Yuma to El Cajon came in at 2.6 and that was only after gaining about 0.3 on the descent. If it wasn't as hot and there wasn't as much of a headwind, I'm sure both would have been better.

A few other notes here:
- The nav did not work great when trying to find other charging stations on the fly. I looked for stations along the route when starting to head into the mountains and nothing returned, but when I finally started heading back down, a bunch returned. In other words, I didn't know where I'd be stopping until a bunch came up starting with El Cajon 25 miles away.
- The Lucid range was in full display on this trip. When we pulled into Dateland, the Kia that pulled in in front of me had planned to charge in Yuma, but he wound up stopping because he didn't think he'd make it. I think this was heat and wind related. As we were charging in Yuma, I saw him pull in again. Given the range issues in having to stop in Dateland, I'm sure he would have had to stop a third time.
- EA, as has been stated before, has to improve their maintenance. If I had decided to go all the way to El Centro and nothing was working, I would have had challenges bc there really did not seem to be anything of the fast charger variety there or anywhere else close, and my range would have been fairly low at that point
- Just so no one confuses the mention of heat above as having difficulties with the AC, we were very comfortable and my wife had to put on a sweater...so suck it .

Reading your write up makes me realise how much I’ve taken for granted, Tesla’s Supercharger network. In all my road tripping in Teslas I’ve never, ever had to worry about the possibility of being confronted with broken supercharger stalls.

 

[thecodingart]

Reading your write up makes me realise how much I’ve taken for granted, Tesla’s Supercharger network. In all my road tripping in Teslas I’ve never, ever had to worry about the possibility of being confronted with broken supercharger stalls.

I did all the time when I had a Tesla… there were multiple occasions where a stall simple wouldn’t charge and I had to play musical chairs with other open stalls. Even worse, I had 3 occasions where my charge port broke and had to be replaced.

 

[Maverick]

Reading your write up makes me realise how much I’ve taken for granted, Tesla’s Supercharger network. In all my road tripping in Teslas I’ve never, ever had to worry about the possibility of being confronted with broken supercharger stalls.

Yeah, I found myself really looking forward to the time Tesla decides to open their network to non-Tesla. Not sure if it will ever happen, but at least the fact that it's occurring in Europe and some optimism that it opens here, is good. Fortunately, I have determined that I just need to plan for this a bit better on the few trips I do that require outside charging. Also, continued improvements to the Nav will help better identify other stations.

 

[digiboxer]

Yeah, I found myself really looking forward to the time Tesla decides to open their network to non-Tesla. Not sure if it will ever happen, but at least the fact that it's occurring in Europe and some optimism that it opens here, is good. Fortunately, I have determined that I just need to plan for this a bit better on the few trips I do that require outside charging. Also, continued improvements to the Nav will help better identify other stations.

Biden Admin is very pro EV adoption, and very hawkish on Anti-Trust (and now likely to hate Musk for political reasons).

Remember when the Bell Cos were forced to make their cables available to competing formats? For a price of course, but it was a game-changer. Could it be forced on Tesla?