Enthusiast Canceling after the Launch event - in Depth Reasons/discrepancies noted

[joec]

Very interesting. I was unaware that the non-refundable deposit could actually be refundable. That does change things.

Regarding the press release, I've bought lots of cars and never had an issue like this. If you cannot trust information in the press releases (and henceforth information reported in the media, and was not corrected with a subsequent press release), what information sources can you trust when making a vehicle order?

I agree, it's not a good look. But young companies often have to balance looking good and competitive to shareholders now with the realities of what they actually manage to build later. I cannot imagine the day the developers went to management and said "We can't deliver Highway Assist without LiDAR" was a fun few hours at Lucid HQ.

I am hoping Lucid is more careful with their language moving forward. Also, I'd like to see much more detail about all of their offerings. We'll see how they handle the Gravity roll out next year. With the Air it was very much "Reveal as little as possible until just before shipping each trim and variant." Which has led to a lot of confusion and disappointment. We still don't know how much HP the RWD Pure will have, for instance. I guess they will make that known a week before production starts on that car.

Some of it is a matter of changing their minds due to the global economy, etc. Some of it it more a matter of they just don't know yet, because they haven't built some of these cars and they aren't done tweaking.

I don't envy anyone over there right now. But I also understand some customers are upset with good reason.

 

[misanoblue]

I get it. I want Lucid to succeed.

But, In your scenario, it was not the developers going to management that said, "We can't deliver Highway Assist without LiDAR" . It was finance.

 

[thecodingart]

I get it. I want Lucid to succeed.

But, In your scenario, it was not the developers going to management that said, "We can't deliver Highway Assist without LiDAR" . It was finance.

Frankly, the decision is in a black box to us as of why. I sort of echo that we should push them to rectify that decision but understand there’s an overall lack of promise on it.

 

[joec]

I get it. I want Lucid to succeed.

But, In your scenario, it was not the developers going to management that said, "We can't deliver Highway Assist without LiDAR" . It was finance.

I think we don't have enough information to make that determination.

It's entirely possible, given they are about a year behind on software development compared to where they thought they would be by now (due to a need for an almost complete rewrite of the main OS), that the original plan was to have Traffic Jam Assist done by the time Touring shipped, thus giving DDRive Pro enough of a differentiating factor to include HA in regular Dream Drive. And thus the change was completely for the purposes of upselling people on Dream Drive Pro now. That is in fact possible.

But it's also possible when they went to build out Highway Assist, for whatever reason, maybe because of the data they are getting from NVidia, etc. they ended up building it with a dependency on the LiDAR system. And they don't feel the feature is up to a good enough standard without that extra LiDAR data at the moment.

Remember, that press release was written at a time when the "original" software team was building 1.0. Would you trust anything that group told you at this point?

They've already burned some trust with GT customers over the many, many issues with the original 1.0 software. Did they really want to ship a sub-standard lane centering feature as well?

Just because others have shipped lane centering without LiDAR doesn't mean whatever Lucid built over the past year would be "good enough." Maybe after shipping such a disappointing 1.0 software package the edict came down from on high that they needed to build features better, not just good enough to check a box.

Like I said, we'll never know. Maybe the programmers said "okay, we can do this, but it'll be another six months. Do you want to have another six months of no lane centering for anyone, or just limit it to Dream Drive Pro customers for now?"

I just find it hard to believe squeezing an extra $10k out of customers would be a smart strategy for a company that can't afford to lose any customers right now. The number of reservations they lose will likely outpace the number of people paying the extra $10k.

 

[misanoblue]

Here's the thing, I have 29 days to confirm by already binding order. Now that I know that Lucid is willing to take features away after the written binding order is complete, how can I expect them not to take other features away? Features not related to dreamdrive for instance. I don't have a great list of features and specs for the pure anyway to hold them accountable to. I don't even know the HP or range of the car in RWD Pure. Maybe after I confirm my RWD, Lucid may artificially lower the range of RWD to make AWD look more appealing.

Honestly, what should I expect as a customer at this point?

This is not a great situation to put your customers in. I feel like I'm gambling. I don't know what I'm going to get.

 

[Steveinarizona]

Here's the thing, I have 29 days to confirm by already binding order. Now that I know that Lucid is willing to take features away after the written binding order is complete, how can I expect them not to take other features away? Features not related to dreamdrive for instance. I don't have a great list of features and specs for the pure anyway to hold them accountable to. I don't even know the HP or range of the car in RWD Pure. Maybe after I confirm my RWD, Lucid may artificially lower the range of RWD to make AWD look more appealing.

Honestly, what should I expect as a customer at this point?

This is not a great situation to put your customers in. I feel like I'm gambling. I don't know what I'm going to get.

We are all in the same place. By the time they get to my Pure order I expect that the curtain will be pulled back. if not, I will not go forward. I agree that it is unreasonable to ask folks to pay this kind of money and not know what they are getting for it.

For me, I don't care that much about highway assist. But I like the way a RWD car runs and for me, the one that would cause me to walk out the door would be a material change in the HP for the RWD Pure. Anything more than 450 might be consistent with the vague promises Lucid has made but the clear implication has been 480 HP.

But misanoblue raises a very good point, do we want to work with a company whose word we don't trust? At this point, for me, I am still trusting Lucid but verification is required before finalization.

 

[misanoblue]

Here are my questions on the Pure. Do I spin the wheel and hope for the best?

1. Are the headlights the same as other trims?
2. Is there a heat pump?
3. Are the wipers rain sensing?
4. Is the steering wheel power tilt and telescope?
5. Will 360 camera be available OTA later?
6. Will other dreamdrive features be available OTA later for a fee?
7. Will the frunk be power operated?
8. Will the rear trunk be power operated?
9. Is ambient lighting different from touring and grand touring?
10. Will I get 2 key fobs?
11. Are all the infotainment features the same as touring and grand touring?
12. Will we have the same dividers in the frunk and trunk as the touring and grand touring?
13. Will the floor mats be included? Are they the same quality as touring and grand touring?
14. What ADAS hardware is included in Dreamdrive non-pro?
15. How many airbags? It says on the website "up to 9."
16. Will Soft close doors be included?
17. Do the exterior door handles have lights in them?
18. 4 zone climate? 2 Zone with some air going to back seats?
19. Same suspension components as touring or grand touring? Lower grade components?
20. RWD range?
21. RWD 0-60?
22. RWD HP?

 

[Babyrocko1908]

Reported last week from folks who saw the Pure in person.....

8. Frunk is NOT power operated..
9. Trunk is power operated
12. Frunk and Trunk are the same depth, etc.
16. Soft close doors are NOT available on Pure.

 

[hydbob]

Reported last week from folks who saw the Pure in person.....

8. Frunk is NOT power operated..
9. Trunk is power operated
12. Frunk and Trunk are the same depth, etc.
16. Soft close doors are NOT available on Pure.

Uhm really? I'm 99% sure the Pure in studio had soft close.

 

[enzro]

As a longtime follower of this forum, I wanted to share that I have decided to cancel my Touring & Pure reservations. I post this here so Lucid sees it, as I have several friends & family who reserved Lucid's at my recommendation given I am die-hard car, EV, and tech enthusiast, and I am similarly advising them to cancel. Reasons follow

1) Lucid has not been forthright about the feature of Dream Drive 'standard'. See the launch event, time 6:52-7:00 mark, where Peter says 'Dream Drive Pro delivers expanded set of features today.... highway assist etc'. As a software engineer, I totally get they use the in production system with advanced sensors and enable that first for highway assist. I also believe Lucid's various press releases from 2020 to today, even the one earlier this year were a bit ambiguous about what Dream Drive 'standard' included.

So I called Lucid today, and asked specifically, do you intend to EVER offer something like Highway assist on Dream Drive Standard. They said no. I asked again a different way "are you sure it's not just in development, note how Peter said 'today' during the launch. I won't cancel if you are working on it, that is totally understandable, even if you don't get there for a year or two I am willing to take delivery and be part of the community. They said no."

On this forum there have been mentions that Lucid tried to use a vendor (NVIDIA) for highway assist/regular Autopilot like functionality, but it didn't work out, this supports the case maybe they are working on it & it is delayed. These responses are the main reason I am canceling. Of course in store people told me dream drive 'standard' had Tesla autopilot like Highway Assist, but I have always taken their word with a grain of salt.

I unfortunately feel Lucid resales values will plummet on non-dream drive pro models if this issue around highway assist is not clarified or it never gets released. Tesla's Full Self Driving take rate (yes I know it's different tech, but its similar price), is sold with 11% of cars and falling. Imagine what Lucid's brand image (and resale) will be like if some similar percent of cars don't have highway assist (for comparisons sake, lets assume 80% don't buy Dream Drive pro of the Pure mass market volume cars). See what happens when you asked someone to buy a used car without CarPlay now.

Similar is happening on lane keeping, especially with the prime working age adults that Lucid needs to capture for years/decades to support the brand/buy up to more premium models, just like BMW/Mercedes have. To those of you who say you never use highway assist like features and I am crazy, I believe that you are quickly becoming the minority. See AGT used prices dropping like a rock pre-SW 2.0 (we will see if they stabilize, of course adjusted for interest rate), what do we think will happen to large numbers of Pure/Touring on the road without highway assist once people figure it out en masse 2 years from now?

2) The official communication around Pure features was abysmal. Power Frunk? Window Shades? Rear shade? What else was decontented? Official communication for a car that had a launch event would be nice. Note it looks like side window shades are still on the Pure design studio online (updated version). Charging speed for RWD Pure? It said the packs were the same between Pure & Touring, so why would the charging speed be different (note it says 250kw on the 'compare tool', but then when you go to features and specs for Lucid Air General, it says 250kw without the asterisks). So which is correct? If the Wunderbox or electronics are different, then what is the deal? Is the argument going to be it's harder to pre-heat the battery with just one motor (I don't buy it if so). Note, I am the original poster from May who was also told that the Pure RWD was 88kw, and Pure AWD & Touring were 92KW, so I am aware of that potential.

3) Torque, AWD, HP, 0-60 - all hard to parse for Pure AWD/RWD. Once again, if you look at the Pure page (https://www.lucidmotors.com/air-pure), it says 0-60mph 3.8sec. 480HP max for AWD. OK, so if the AWD motor weighs a bit more for the 2nd front motor, or the AWD batter pack is a bit bigger, or both, makes sense you need a little bit less HP to meet that performance mark, assuming you have summer tires on the RWD Pure to generate sufficient traction to still hit 3.8sec 0-60. Lucid should just state this if it's the case!!! Or correct their website to make it clear the RWD is a slower 0-60 mph. When I spoke with sales today, they said the RWD was slower than 3.8 0-60. I brought up the website issues. They said they can confirm it is slower. It is so incredibly frustrating the sloppiness of the launch.

Lucid, if you wish to discuss, you are welcome to contact me here via a DM.

I was watching the launch and thinking the same. There is no clarity. I will likely cancel my order, also.

 

[Babyrocko1908]

Uhm really? I'm 99% sure the Pure in studio had soft close.

I'll take your word then.

 

[stratus]

Here are my questions on the Pure. Do I spin the wheel and hope for the best?

1. Are the headlights the same as other trims?
2. Is there a heat pump?
3. Are the wipers rain sensing?
4. Is the steering wheel power tilt and telescope?
5. Will 360 camera be available OTA later?
6. Will other dreamdrive features be available OTA later for a fee?
7. Will the frunk be power operated?
8. Will the rear trunk be power operated?
9. Is ambient lighting different from touring and grand touring?
10. Will I get 2 key fobs?
11. Are all the infotainment features the same as touring and grand touring?
12. Will we have the same dividers in the frunk and trunk as the touring and grand touring?
13. Will the floor mats be included? Are they the same quality as touring and grand touring?
14. What ADAS hardware is included in Dreamdrive non-pro?
15. How many airbags? It says on the website "up to 9."
16. Will Soft close doors be included?
17. Do the exterior door handles have lights in them?
18. 4 zone climate? 2 Zone with some air going to back seats?
19. Same suspension components as touring or grand touring? Lower grade components?
20. RWD range?
21. RWD 0-60?
22. RWD HP?

Have you reached out to Lucid with the identical list of questions?

 

[digiboxer]

Lucid cannot expect me as a customer to dive into heaps of information to verify that features they said were included when I locked my order (during IRA) are still included. That's ridiculous. I locked my order with a written binding agreement prior to updates mentioned earlier in this thread.

Lucid will have to deliver, or they'll have a class action. Simple.

Your's was my initial reaction..class action. But then reality set in:

1) They're delivering so few cars that the class would be correspondingly small, and therefor of no real threat; (and o no interest to the class-action bar)

2) If you comb thru the fine print of your contract (I've grown too weary of Lucid to bother) there is no doubt boilerplate language you didn't know you were signing that exculpates them from non-material changes in the spec...blah-blah.

I would downgrade from Touring to Pure now that I know the true specs for both---but Lucid won't honor the old pricing if I do..

"Henrik Fisker, you've got a lovely daughter...."

 

[digiboxer]

I agree, it's not a good look. But young companies often have to balance looking good and competitive to shareholders now with the realities of what they actually manage to build later. I cannot imagine the day the developers went to management and said "We can't deliver Highway Assist without LiDAR" was a fun few hours at Lucid HQ.

I am hoping Lucid is more careful with their language moving forward. Also, I'd like to see much more detail about all of their offerings. We'll see how they handle the Gravity roll out next year. With the Air it was very much "Reveal as little as possible until just before shipping each trim and variant." Which has led to a lot of confusion and disappointment. We still don't know how much HP the RWD Pure will have, for instance. I guess they will make that known a week before production starts on that car.

Some of it is a matter of changing their minds due to the global economy, etc. Some of it it more a matter of they just don't know yet, because they haven't built some of these cars and they aren't done tweaking.

I don't envy anyone over there right now. But I also understand some customers are upset with good reason.

The "young company/startup" trope is getting increasingly cloying (founded 2007, supplied batteries and drive trains to OEMs, designed Air in 2015---multiple VC and PE rounds--Tesla veterans at the helm--3B from Saudis--public for a year--60B valuation...on and on)...but I would still forget the idea of any legal recourse for Lucid's failures.

The purchase contract says, essentially, if the buyer defaults Lucid's only remedy is to keep the 1k (or 300) deposit..

If Lucid defaults the only remedy for the buyer is to get their 1k back.

That's what we signed up for--- and since we signed, some Touring specs (0--60--no HA) have been changed for the worse---don't like it? Don't close... but get your 1K back.

 

[C28]

Lucid refunds the 'non refundable deposit" from August for the tax credit if you note the highway assist changes for Dreamdrive non-Pro

As to the arguments about functionality, as some note, they are really dependent on NVIDIA here. Suggest reading this wiki on the various platforms.

It is unclear if Lucid has the Xavier/Turning Platform (8.0) from 2020, which seems likely timeframe wise for development, or the newly announced in production Orin platform (8.1), 2022 announced. Either way, as pointed out, it's likely Lucid/Nvidia are optimizing features on the Lidar platforms. When you look at the NVIDIA list, it seems many of the vehicles on their platform have Lidar on the majority of the trims for a given model that the NVIDIA platform is deployed. So optimizing for the Lucid case of non-Lidar variants would be a low development priority for things like Highway Assist most likely for NVIDIA engineering. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nvidia_Drive

Hence I think the most likely occurrence that Lucid will do is end up building all cars with Lidar rather than face the cancellations, then do some sort of software locking/tiering buy up. Recall what Tesla did with model 3 $35,000 variant, saying it would be super stripped down with cloth seats, less features, custom smaller pack, less speakers/heated seats, etc, then when production time came they backtracked and just software locked everything. Lidar hardware from Luminar is only $500-$1000/unit. Just my two cents, but I think the company valuation does better if order book doesn't crater and the COGS per vehicle go up short term to include the Lidar, and hope the Lidar comes down in price as more platforms adopt it from Luminar (which is happening). I do not own Lucid stock, shorts etc (full disclosure).

 

[Adnillien]

Lucid refunds the 'non refundable deposit" from August for the tax credit if you note the highway assist changes for Dreamdrive non-Pro

As to the arguments about functionality, as some note, they are really dependent on NVIDIA here. Suggest reading this wiki on the various platforms.

It is unclear if Lucid has the Xavier/Turning Platform (8.0) from 2020, which seems likely timeframe wise for development, or the newly announced in production Orin platform (8.1), 2022 announced. Either way, as pointed out, it's likely Lucid/Nvidia are optimizing features on the Lidar platforms. When you look at the NVIDIA list, it seems many of the vehicles on their platform have Lidar on the majority of the trims for a given model that the NVIDIA platform is deployed. So optimizing for the Lucid case of non-Lidar variants would be a low development priority for things like Highway Assist most likely for NVIDIA engineering. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nvidia_Drive

Hence I think the most likely occurrence that Lucid will do is end up building all cars with Lidar rather than face the cancellations, then do some sort of software locking/tiering buy up. Recall what Tesla did with model 3 $35,000 variant, saying it would be super stripped down with cloth seats, less features, custom smaller pack, less speakers/heated seats, etc, then when production time came they backtracked and just software locked everything. Lidar hardware from Luminar is only $500-$1000/unit. Just my two cents, but I think the company valuation does better if order book doesn't crater and the COGS per vehicle go up short term to include the Lidar, and hope the Lidar comes down in price as more platforms adopt it from Luminar (which is happening). I do not own Lucid stock, shorts etc (full disclosure).

I believe that Lucid is using Robosense LiDAR which is $1900. You also need to add the cost of image processing to that which is probably low but still a real cost. I don't think Lucid can just eat that cost and add LiDAR to all cars without DDPro.

 

[RM-S8]

I don't understand people who want additional features, but don't want to pay for them.

 

[Janger]

I don't understand people who want additional features, but don't want to pay for them.

I agree completely. This is a luxury car. You need to pay extra for additional convenience

 

[svoelpel]

Lucid refunds the 'non refundable deposit" from August for the tax credit if you note the highway assist changes for Dreamdrive non-Pro

As to the arguments about functionality, as some note, they are really dependent on NVIDIA here. Suggest reading this wiki on the various platforms.

It is unclear if Lucid has the Xavier/Turning Platform (8.0) from 2020, which seems likely timeframe wise for development, or the newly announced in production Orin platform (8.1), 2022 announced. Either way, as pointed out, it's likely Lucid/Nvidia are optimizing features on the Lidar platforms. When you look at the NVIDIA list, it seems many of the vehicles on their platform have Lidar on the majority of the trims for a given model that the NVIDIA platform is deployed. So optimizing for the Lucid case of non-Lidar variants would be a low development priority for things like Highway Assist most likely for NVIDIA engineering. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nvidia_Drive

Hence I think the most likely occurrence that Lucid will do is end up building all cars with Lidar rather than face the cancellations, then do some sort of software locking/tiering buy up. Recall what Tesla did with model 3 $35,000 variant, saying it would be super stripped down with cloth seats, less features, custom smaller pack, less speakers/heated seats, etc, then when production time came they backtracked and just software locked everything. Lidar hardware from Luminar is only $500-$1000/unit. Just my two cents, but I think the company valuation does better if order book doesn't crater and the COGS per vehicle go up short term to include the Lidar, and hope the Lidar comes down in price as more platforms adopt it from Luminar (which is happening). I do not own Lucid stock, shorts etc (full disclosure).

I am 90% sure I am going to cancel my Pure order. Would you elaborate on your comment about getting the "non refundable" deposit refunded? How you actually do it. Thanks.

 

[Bobby]

I am 90% sure I am going to cancel my Pure order. Would you elaborate on your comment about getting the "non refundable" deposit refunded? How you actually do it. Thanks.

Have you signed a contract to make it non-refundable yet?