Taycan Turbo GT goes 0-60 in 1.9, beating Lucid Air Sapphire

[SaratogaLefty]

Having owned four Porsches over my years and tracked my 911 for five years on every road course in CA, I have a tremendous respect for Porsche engineering and the performance of their cars. If it hadn't of been for the Burlingame Porsche dealer screwing with me at the last minute, I would have purchased a 2022 Taycan 4S in early 2021. Thankfully they caused me to angrily walk and then soon after I put down my deposit on the Lucid in April 2021. To compare my Lucid to a Porsche is not something I think about but the Lucid is a much better fit for me and has more than enough power and handling for even my most spirited runs in the local coastal mountains.

 

[momo3605]

Your presumption is wrong. My memory is intact.

And I'm not trying to pick a battle. You either deliberately ignored or failed to understand that I was just asking an agenda-free question about whether Porsche's approach to torque vectoring with a single rear motor would work as well as Lucid's approach using two rear motors. That was why I wrote in my post, "I'm not saying they won't. I'm truly curious."

At least you did actually respond to the question, for which I thank you.

The interesting thing I Found is that when the Sapphire was tested by Hagerty folks as well as Car And Driver, etc…the big takeaway was that tri-motor was essential to the Sapphire’s ultra fast 0-60. Where a dual motor car like the Air Dream P can not put power down in the front when it lifts, the Sapphire (and Plaid) can put down more power through the dual rear motors and then as speed increases, power can shift back to the front.

How the dual-motor Taycan GT manages to out-launch the Dream P AND the Sapphire is pretty wild.

 

[Ughwhy]

My issue with the Tycan is the looks. I can't help but see it as an unpleasantly deformed 911.

 

[SaratogaLefty]

I actually really like the looks of the Taycan (but not the Turismo which to me just looks like a low slung station wagon). The back seat in the Taycan is terrible but that wasn't really a concern for me as I never intended to be in the back seat.

 

[xponents]

With a single rear motor, the Taycan won't be able to do the true torque vectoring the Sapphire can. So it'll be interesting to see whether other handling approaches with the Taycan offset that advantage. (I'm not saying they won't. I'm truly curious.). Rawlinson said in an interview a while back that the true torque vectoring allowed by two rear motors was more effective than rear-wheel steering. Also, the Sapphire has 1-millisecond cycling of its traction control, something that heretofore has been unmatched by close to a factor of ten.

Agreed, this is what I was getting at when I said that the Turbo GT cannot be definitively said to have better handling.

My issue with the Tycan is the looks. I can't help but see it as an unpleasantly deformed 911.

I actually find the 911 to be an incredibly ugly car (please don’t kill me), but the Taycan looks GREAT to me! I love how low slung it is, and that rear section is to die for. They did mess up the front with the 2025, IMO.

 

[koflo]

With a single rear motor, the Taycan won't be able to do the true torque vectoring the Sapphire can. So it'll be interesting to see whether other handling approaches with the Taycan offset that advantage. (I'm not saying they won't. I'm truly curious.). Rawlinson said in an interview a while back that the true torque vectoring allowed by two rear motors was more effective than rear-wheel steering. Also, the Sapphire has 1-millisecond cycling of its traction control, something that heretofore has been unmatched by close to a factor of ten. It'll be interesting to see what Porsche does in that realm.



I see you have a Dream P. Have you driven a Sapphire in wide-ranging test conditions? I haven't, but I've read quite a few reviews by seasoned race drivers who use words such as "otherworldly" to describe the Sapphire's handling. I wonder if that leaves enough room for a night and day difference with the Taycan?

Truthfully, I have not. But I also haven’t drive the GT either. As others have mentioned, the chasis feels completely different on both cars. Lucid has weight and size it can’t hide even though it handles very well… for its size. I think it will always have that asterisk next to it (for its size). The taycan has a lot of downsides but handling is its greatest strength. You would swear the car weighs thousands of pounds less than it does.

All that to say, it’s quite possible that the sapphire would completely change my mind but the GT could as well. But having highly specced models of each has me drawing conclusions that the air won’t reach Taycan levels of handling. I do think lucid has the technology to do it in another chassis though. That’s why I want a dual motor, 2 door lucid roadster.

 

[hmp10]

How the dual-motor Taycan GT manages to out-launch the Dream P AND the Sapphire is pretty wild.

I wonder if weight and tires factor in?

The Taycan in the C&D test weighs 133 pounds less than the Sapphire, and the article said the rule of thumb is that 0-60 times drop by a tenth for every 100 pounds less weight, all other things being equal.

Also, the Taycan has 305mm of rear tire width compared to the Sapphire's 295mm, meaning that the Sapphire might engage more traction-control power cutting?

 

[rfc805]

Remember the Taycan also has a 2 speed transmission on the rear.

It's a lot of little things. Part of it is just Porsche has a whole lot of existing data/engineering around launch control.

 

[hmp10]

Truthfully, I have not. But I also haven’t drive the GT either. As others have mentioned, the chasis feels completely different on both cars. Lucid has weight and size it can’t hide even though it handles very well… for its size. I think it will always have that asterisk next to it (for its size). The taycan has a lot of downsides but handling is its greatest strength. You would swear the car weighs thousands of pounds less than it does.

All that to say, it’s quite possible that the sapphire would completely change my mind but the GT could as well. But having highly specced models of each has me drawing conclusions that the air won’t reach Taycan levels of handling. I do think lucid has the technology to do it in another chassis though. That’s why I want a dual motor, 2 door lucid roadster.

I haven't driven either a Taycan or a Sapphire. I wasn't rejecting the idea that the Taycan might out-handle the Sapphire. Without even getting to the issue of chassis and suspension engineering, the Taycan is a lighter car on wider tires which right there gives it a head start. What I was questioning was whether the difference is really "night and day". That's a phrase that usually connotes a vast difference. All I've got to go on in comparing the two cars is what auto journalists say, and I've seen so much sky-high wonderment at the Sapphire's handling capabilities that I was really wondering whether the handling difference between the two cars really goes beyond the behavior at the margins on a track as compared to what anyone would experience on public roads where I do all my driving.

BTW, the original Taycan was a tad larger than the Air. Unless Porsche has significantly downsized the Taycan GT, I don't think there is any significant difference in the size of the two cars.

Trying to beat the edit time-out clock here: just looked up the dimensions of each . . . virtually identical except the Sapphire is an inch taller.

 

[Pragmatic]

These differences are mostly noise. Tires with more/less wear, fully broken-in vs new cars, track surface temperatures (assuming its even the same venue) all make greater differences than these cars exhibit. Unless testing is much more controlled (same day, almost same time, same lane, same direction) or time differences are greater you're really discussing weather and condition differences.

 

[momo3605]

I wonder if weight and tires factor in?

The Taycan in the C&D test weighs 133 pounds less than the Sapphire, and the article said the rule of thumb is that 0-60 times drop by a tenth for every 100 pounds less weight, all other things being equal.

Also, the Taycan has 305mm of rear tire width compared to the Sapphire's 295mm, meaning that the Sapphire might engage more traction-control power cutting?

I’m not sure their rule of thumb is valid when talking about 5000+lbs tanks. Also when we’re talking about these kind of numbers, the effort to break it becomes exponentially harder. This 100lbs rule of thumb probably comes from the 90s when they were comparing 200-300hp Japanese cars that weighed between 2500-3500lbs.

Like a few others have mentioned, Porsche is pretty much the leader in the industry when it comes to traction control, torque vectoring, etc…so very possible the differences come down to that.

But still unclear on the dual motor aspect. If what Lucid claims is true about tri-motor dominance, I would’ve expected the Taycan to launch like the Dream P, in the mid 2s. (Which mind you is actually lighter than the Sapphire by 100lbs itself). I can’t imagine minor differences in tires and traction control making that big of a difference.

 

[hmp10]

These differences are mostly noise. Tires with more/less wear, fully broken-in vs new cars, track surface temperatures (assuming its even the same venue) all make greater differences than these cars exhibit. Unless testing is much more controlled (same day, almost same time, same lane, same direction) or time differences are greater you're really discussing weather and condition differences.

Yep. My partner's son is a competitive skier. They both obsess over 100ths of a second differences on ski runs, and I try to tell them that snow, temperature, and wind conditions shift enough over a single event that winning by such margins is utterly meaningless. Winners are often determined more by what time of the day they make the run than by whether they're the better skier that day.

Actually, I think there are a lot of things that can make a driver much prefer one car's handling over another car's or make one car feel quicker or faster than another. But those things are seldom accurately predicted for a particular driver by tests such as the one here.

I've owned a lot of high-performance cars over the years: a Corvette, a Mercedes SL55 AMG, a MB/McLaren SLR, three Audi R8s (V8 coupe, V10 coupe, V10 spyder). Some of them were virtually identical in 0-60 times, in lateral g-force numbers, in slalom metrics, etc. And in every discussion I've had with other drivers about every one of them, there were those who held the exact opposite of my views in comparing one to its competitors.

It's like buying seating furniture. You don't know which is right for you until you sit in it a while.

 

[hmp10]

I can’t imagine minor differences in tires and traction control making that big of a difference.

I put up a post (above) before I saw this. I guess my question is whether the few fractions of a second is a "big difference", or at least a big enough one to matter to drivers who key in on different sensations from each other in their subjective perception of acceleration and speed. Sure, if you're racing against a clock or a competitor, the objective numbers rule. But I think every one of us who loves cars has found that our own perceptions of a car's room, ride, handling, and power often does not square with what the objective numbers tell us we should perceive.

Remember the old joke about washing and waxing a car giving it an extra 50 horsepower? So much of this rides on subjective impression.

 

[rfc805]

It's completely irrelevant beyond bragging at the (bar, office, soccer game).

I would be surprised if anyone honestly drove the Air and Taycan back to back and didn't say that the Taycan felt more nimble/handled better. I surely can't say how that translates to track times or such - sometimes cars that feel worse turn in faster laps. The Taycan feels incredibly nimble, not like an EV at all. It's very impressive in that regard.

The Air feels really good "for an EV", or really for any luxury larger sedan. And it's all that you could ever need driving around, and then some.

 

[Wolfman]

Tires make a significant difference and easily account for .02 seconds to 60 and essentially the Porsche is still the slower car. Quarter mile and trap speed are more relevant as is 60-130.
I have not seen any Nurburgring times for the Lucid but the Sapphire has done well at VIR but realistically one should expect an EV Sports car like the Taycan GT be able to outperform a sedan. So kudos to the Sapphire which interestingly should have more ability to up the performance with its 3 motor layout.

Is any of this needed? Hardly but its fun to have that option

 

[hmp10]

I can’t imagine minor differences in tires and traction control making that big of a difference.

It's hard for me to sort out. The only current personal comparison I have is our Air Dream P to our Model S Plaid.

The Air has 91 more peak horsepower.
It weighs 516 pounds more than the Plaid.
The Air has skinnier tires (245/265 vs. 265/295).
The Tesla is quicker to 60 by several tenths, no matter how, where, or by whom either is tested.

Yet . . . I feel the Air to be the quicker and faster car. Why?

The Tesla's front end goes so light under hard acceleration that I have to back off. The Air stays much better planted, allowing me to use more of its power. And I actually punch the cars more from speed than I do from dead stops, and the Lucid delivers more power at speed than the Tesla seems to.

Every test I've ever seen of either car tells me that the Plaid will scratch my acceleration itch better than the Air. Every test has been wrong.

 

[SaratogaLefty]

Tires do make a difference. While the stock tires on the Sapphire are outstanding they will not match the much softer compound "track" tires that I suspect the Taycan was equipped with. The Nurburgring is a very long track and thus the track tires could account for a significant difference in overall time. We'll just have to wait and see how the Sapphire does and how it is equipped for the lap times.

 

[hmp10]

Tires do make a difference. While the stock tires on the Sapphire are outstanding they will not match the much softer compound "track" tires that I suspect the Taycan was equipped with. The Nurburgring is a very long track and thus the track tires could account for a significant difference in overall time. We'll just have to wait and see how the Sapphire does and how it is equipped for the lap times.

The article said the Taycan was shod with Pirelli Trofeos, which I believe are track tires.

 

[momo3605]

Tires do make a difference. While the stock tires on the Sapphire are outstanding they will not match the much softer compound "track" tires that I suspect the Taycan was equipped with. The Nurburgring is a very long track and thus the track tires could account for a significant difference in overall time. We'll just have to wait and see how the Sapphire does and how it is equipped for the lap times.

The article said the Taycan was shod with Pirelli Trofeos, which I believe are track tires.

Trofeo's will make a difference on track no doubt, but that being said, the Sapphire uses a PS4S in name only. It's customized with compound from the Cup 2 which is also a track tire.

Additionally track tires don't necessarily make great drag racing tires. They are generally designed with more grip on the sides for cornering. You need some Hoosiers or drag radials like you get on the Demon if you really want to maximize 0-60.

 

[hydbob]

Trofeo's will make a difference on track no doubt, but that being said, the Sapphire uses a PS4S in name only. It's customized with compound from the Cup 2 which is also a track tire.

Additionally track tires don't necessarily make great drag racing tires. They are generally designed with more grip on the sides for cornering. You need some Hoosiers or drag radials like you get on the Demon if you really want to maximize 0-60.

The Saphire tires are Cup2 on the edges but are the lower rolling resistance compoind in the centers. Could possibly affect grip on a drag race