Real world range touring 19 inch wheels

[kort6776]

This is what I was saying yesterday. With the amount of driving some of us do, every day is a road trip. So, obviously, the importance and impact of range and efficiency are much greater

daily driving 300+ miles is a bit unusual

 

[Halodde]

daily driving 300+ miles is a bit unusual

I agree. I don't go over 300/day too often. But, it happens several times a month. And that kind of mileage becomes an issue for me in the winter months with the smaller battery pack. My typical day is around 200-220 though. So, enough that I pay attention to efficiency on a regular basis.

 

[Batteryman]

Forget about my Rivian. It performs very close to its specs for my driving. I drive like a Boy Scout. My insurance company is State Farm. And their "Drive Safe and Save" telematics" would attest to my driving. Lucid probably has my telematics as well. They can validate.


Comparing Lucid and the German cars, the German cars (on the whole) deliver at or better than their claims. Lucid's "clever" spec is their range is the best. But that range metric is done @55 mph 0r 60 mph, hardly consistent with the image of the car.

Highway driving in the US means 70-75 mph, Texas excluded. The 75mph data from Car and Driver (and other reviewers) indicate Lucid's range performance drops off significantly whilst the German car makers are typically better.

I never said, "Lucid lied". But YES, I am saying Lucid's range claims do not harmonize with typical highway driving conditions. My belief is, that they should be more forthcoming in explaining that aspect.

Lucid will still be the range and efficiency king. Just less so. And the EV-buying public will be better served.

We are nuancing this whole thing. Let me give you a quick exercise that might come in handy one day:

> you told your wife you are going fishing with your buddies for the weekend.
> in reality, you met up with your old girlfriend for dinner on Friday night.
> you came home on Sunday night. The wife was suspicious. She asks, "Did you go see your girlfriend Saturday night?". You said, "NO!, I did not".
> OK, was that [A] a lie? an embellishment? or [C] a "credibility gap"?

If you want 70mph range advertised, write to your senator. Not here. Whats so hard to understand? As long as Lucid follows the rules, your argument has zero credibility.

 

[BS8899]

I agree. I don't go over 300/day too often. But, it happens several times a month. And that kind of mileage becomes an issue for me in the winter months with the smaller battery pack. My typical day is around 200-220 though. So, enough that I pay attention to efficiency on a regular basis.

I grew up in Toronto and I lived in Ottawa for a couple of years. Temperature-wise, Buffalo can get cold, but nowhere as cold as Ottawa. Nevertheless, Buffalo's biggest winter challenge is snow. I'd be curious how the Lucid's low ground clearance fares in a snowy climate.

If you haven't seen this article already, it might be a good read on Lucid in extreme climate.

An Extreme Winter Test in Our Long-Term Lucid Air Left Us Hot and Cold

We let our long-term Lucid Air sit out in single-digit temperatures overnight then drove it until it went into limp mode. Here’s what we learned.

www.motortrend.com

 

[Halodde]

I grew up in Toronto and I lived in Ottawa for a couple of years. Temperature-wise, Buffalo can get cold, but nowhere as cold as Ottawa. Nevertheless, Buffalo's biggest winter challenge is snow. I'd be curious how the Lucid's low ground clearance fares in a snowy climate.

If you haven't seen this article already, it might be a good read on Lucid in extreme climate.

An Extreme Winter Test in Our Long-Term Lucid Air Left Us Hot and Cold

We let our long-term Lucid Air sit out in single-digit temperatures overnight then drove it until it went into limp mode. Here’s what we learned.

www.motortrend.com

I read that before. And it's consistent with my experiences with the obvious difference between the GT and mine.

Only once last year was the unplowed snow deep enough that I noticed it. And yes, I noticed it because the snow was coming up over the hood of the car as I was driving because it was above the lowest point of the front of the car. The snow was probably 12-15 inches deep if I had to guess. Handled okay though

 

[borski]

Well, at least we don't live in the EU and are mandated to use the WLTP test cycle for range.

True, since we all know Europeans are liars and the WLTP is a joke and never what anyone actually hits their WLTP range in the real world. EVs are a joke and Lucid is a liar lol

I am still interested in seeing posts from people reporting real world range, especially at highway speeds. So please don't lock the thread.

I have no problem with this - the issue I have is with the incessant “Lucid is being dishonest” and “don’t remind me that everyone follows the same rules” posts.

Reporting real world range is helpful to everyone and a worthwhile discussion. Complaining that it doesn’t meet or beat EPA when you didn’t drive like the EPA tests mandate is not worthwhile.

 

[Bunnylebowski]

I grew up in Toronto and I lived in Ottawa for a couple of years. Temperature-wise, Buffalo can get cold, but nowhere as cold as Ottawa. Nevertheless, Buffalo's biggest winter challenge is snow. I'd be curious how the Lucid's low ground clearance fares in a snowy climate.

If you haven't seen this article already, it might be a good read on Lucid in extreme climate.

An Extreme Winter Test in Our Long-Term Lucid Air Left Us Hot and Cold

We let our long-term Lucid Air sit out in single-digit temperatures overnight then drove it until it went into limp mode. Here’s what we learned.

www.motortrend.com

That MotorTrend article was problematic because they charged to 100% and then cold soaked at near zero which Lucid recommends against doing, and then there was definitely something wrong with the car as the heater wasn’t working. I’ve gotten 330-340 miles in sub freezing temps in Air GT on 19s to the correct PSI, so all this MT test shows is that if they disobey all manufacturer recs and also have a malfunctioning vehicle in very cold temps then yes it will get a huge % hit in range and the car will not behave normally or estimate its own range well. It’s the equivalent of driving an ICE car 10k miles past an oil change due date and then making it sound like there’s something wrong with the car, when in reality there’s something wrong with the careless driver.

You can literally come up with all sorts of ways to make the car have bad or great range. For example, see the recent world record for most countries traveled in an EV on a single charge set by Lucid, which had fantastic efficiency and range. Why aren’t you citing that one also? I’ll tell you why, it’s called cherry picking.

Here’s the thing about tests, they should be reproducible under their own conditions, but not under different conditions. It’s absurd to expect a similar result with different testing conditions. The EPA 5 cycle test gives an estimated range under those conditions only, it’s not very meaningful unless you drive like 5 cycle EPA. I think sometimes people are also easily fooled by lower range EVs that get the same crap efficiency no matter what thus are less sensitive to different conditions. My wife’s prior Volvo generally got pretty close to its 2 cycle EPA 220 mile range estimate because the regen wasn’t very good, it had bad aerodynamics, didn’t have large variations in power deployment due to not much power available, so it would get like 2.3 mi/kwh at 70mph whereas the Lucid would get 4.0-4.1mi/Kwh at 70mph under the same conditions. But yes drop the temps and add speed and resistance heating (Volvo had a more efficient heat pump) and now the Volvo becomes a little less efficient and the Lucid becomes MUCH less efficient because it was already starting at such a maximized efficiency. I don’t expect any of these points to matter, but it’s this informed perspective that is almost always lacking from these complaints about Lucid’s EPA data.

 

[BS8899]

That MotorTrend article was problematic because they charged to 100% and then cold soaked at near zero which Lucid recommends against doing, and then there was definitely something wrong with the car as the heater wasn’t working. I’ve gotten 330-340 miles in sub freezing temps in Air GT on 19s to the correct PSI, so all this MT test shows is that if they disobey all manufacturer recs and also have a malfunctioning vehicle in very cold temps then yes it will get a huge % hit in range and the car will not behave normally or estimate its own range well. It’s the equivalent of driving an ICE car 10k miles past an oil change due date and then making it sound like there’s something wrong with the car, when in reality there’s something wrong with the careless driver.

You can literally come up with all sorts of ways to make the car have bad or great range. For example, see the recent world record for most countries traveled in an EV on a single charge set by Lucid, which had fantastic efficiency and range. Why aren’t you citing that one also? I’ll tell you why, it’s called cherry picking.

Here’s the thing about tests, they should be reproducible under their own conditions, but not under different conditions. It’s absurd to expect a similar result with different testing conditions. The EPA 5 cycle test gives an estimated range under those conditions only, it’s not very meaningful unless you drive like 5 cycle EPA. I think sometimes people are also easily fooled by lower range EVs that get the same crap efficiency no matter what thus are less sensitive to different conditions. My wife’s prior Volvo generally got pretty close to its 2 cycle EPA 220 mile range estimate because the regen wasn’t very good, it had bad aerodynamics, didn’t have large variations in power deployment due to not much power available, so it would get like 2.3 mi/kwh at 70mph whereas the Lucid would get 4.0-4.1mi/Kwh at 70mph under the same conditions. But yes drop the temps and add speed and resistance heating (Volvo had a more efficient heat pump) and now the Volvo becomes a little less efficient and the Lucid becomes MUCH less efficient because it was already starting at such a maximized efficiency. I don’t expect any of these points to matter, but it’s this informed perspective that is almost always lacking from these complaints about Lucid’s EPA data.

I used to live in colder climates, probably a lot colder than most of you ever experienced on a day-to-day basis. Now, I live in much warmer climate (Arizona). I don't have a dog in this fight. I am not defending MT's article. But I think EV mileage degradation in cold climate is a physical reality. The question is how much. Ultimately what the user cares is not the debate about cold soaking or pre-warming. It is about how far you can go in your vehicle when you get up in the morning and start driving and also the accuracy of the real-time remaining miles indicator.

That said, I am a bit puzzled by your remarks RE: MT "not adhering to manufacturer's recommendations". I interpret the "cold soak" to be equivalent to parking the car overnight in cold climate and starting it up in the morning. Is that not so?

I don't doubt you can potentially get a bit more range out of it. But MT's test purports to simulate how a driver would experience the car in cold weather. Yes, I know the routine of having engine block heaters in my ICE car, and warm up the cabin before you go. I used to live in climate where, in the deep of winter, can be 40 degrees below (it is the same Celsius and Fahrenheit). I know the drill.

I am NOT defending MT's tests and data. But I thought their cold soak (simulating an overnight idle) and the use of heaters/cooling (thus battery drain) to condition the cabin is a "realistic" scenario. And yes, it will compromise the range. Surely, some of these factors can be mitigated with a heated garage. But that's not the norm.

 

[Bunnylebowski]

I used to live in colder climates, probably a lot colder than most of you ever experienced on a day-to-day basis. Now, I live in much warmer climate (Arizona). I don't have a dog in this fight. I am not defending MT's article. But I think EV mileage degradation in cold climate is a physical reality. The question is how much. Ultimately what the user cares is not the debate about cold soaking or pre-warming. It is about how far you can go in your vehicle when you get up in the morning and start driving and also the accuracy of the real-time remaining miles indicator.

That said, I am a bit puzzled by your remarks RE: MT "not adhering to manufacturer's recommendations". I interpret the "cold soak" to be equivalent to parking the car overnight in cold climate and starting it up in the morning. Is that not so?

I don't doubt you can potentially get a bit more range out of it. But MT's test purports to simulate how a driver would experience the car in cold weather. Yes, I know the routine of having engine block heaters in my ICE car, and warm up the cabin before you go. I used to live in climate where, in the deep of winter, can be 40 degrees below (it is the same Celsius and Fahrenheit). I know the drill.

I am NOT defending MT's tests and data. But I thought their cold soak (simulating an overnight idle) and the use of heaters/cooling (thus battery drain) to condition the cabin is a "realistic" scenario. And yes, it will compromise the range. Surely, some of these factors can be mitigated with a heated garage. But that's not the norm.

 

[hydbob]

I used to live in colder climates, probably a lot colder than most of you ever experienced on a day-to-day basis. Now, I live in much warmer climate (Arizona). I don't have a dog in this fight. I am not defending MT's article. But I think EV mileage degradation in cold climate is a physical reality. The question is how much. Ultimately what the user cares is not the debate about cold soaking or pre-warming. It is about how far you can go in your vehicle when you get up in the morning and start driving and also the accuracy of the real-time remaining miles indicator.

That said, I am a bit puzzled by your remarks RE: MT "not adhering to manufacturer's recommendations". I interpret the "cold soak" to be equivalent to parking the car overnight in cold climate and starting it up in the morning. Is that not so?

I don't doubt you can potentially get a bit more range out of it. But MT's test purports to simulate how a driver would experience the car in cold weather. Yes, I know the routine of having engine block heaters in my ICE car, and warm up the cabin before you go. I used to live in climate where, in the deep of winter, can be 40 degrees below (it is the same Celsius and Fahrenheit). I know the drill.

I am NOT defending MT's tests and data. But I thought their cold soak (simulating an overnight idle) and the use of heaters/cooling (thus battery drain) to condition the cabin is a "realistic" scenario. And yes, it will compromise the range. Surely, some of these factors can be mitigated with a heated garage. But that's not the norm.

Wouldn't drivers who lived in cold climates automatically turn on the seat warmer and steering wheel warmer if available? Seems like a no brainer to me, but the MT tester chose not to until much later in their drive?

 

[Bunnylebowski]

They say don’t cold soak. And while brand new novice EV owners may not know it’s a bad idea to charge to 100% and then not drive the car, there’s enough info out there that this is not a good idea in any EV. And yeah definitely need to use the heater in cold temps, that’s not the issue, the issue was it seemed the MT car heater wasn’t behaving as it should, meaning the test wasnt really representative of anything. Maybe it was trying to rescue the 100% battery sitting at 4F for hours? Maybe it was broken? A malfunctioning heater could mean unpredictable power consumption also. I only mention it for sake of fairness to Lucid. Had MT followed Lucid’s recommendations by leaving it plugged in at cold temps, that would be more representative, IF the heater was working, but the article instead was just a test in a possibly malfunctioning vehicle conducted by not following the manufacturers recommendations. Might as well go put 89 octane in a Ferrari and publish an article on that also.

 

[BS8899]

Wouldn't drivers who lived in cold climates automatically turn on the seat warmer and steering wheel warmer if available? Seems like a no brainer to me, but the MT tester chose not to until much later in their drive?

Perhaps. But that's merely a different form of energy consumption. Yes, it might mitigate the "mileage" a bit.

The right answer is to have a fully insulated and climate controlled garage for your EV.

 

[hydbob]

Perhaps. But that's merely a different form of energy consumption. Yes, it might mitigate the "mileage" a bit.

The right answer is to have a fully insulated and climate controlled garage for your EV.

Well it's the most effective way to pump heat into your body. Also, just like the AC not working on super hot days because it's cooling the battery pack, the HVAC will send heat into the battery pack first before the cabin.

 

[BS8899]

They say don’t cold soak. And while brand new novice EV owners may not know it’s a bad idea to charge to 100% and then not drive the car, there’s enough info out there that this is not a good idea in any EV. And yeah definitely need to use the heater in cold temps, that’s not the issue, the issue was it seemed the MT car heater wasn’t behaving as it should, meaning the test wasnt really representative of anything. Maybe it was trying to rescue the 100% battery sitting at 4F for hours? Maybe it was broken? A malfunctioning heater could mean unpredictable power consumption also. I only mention it for sake of fairness to Lucid. Had MT followed Lucid’s recommendations by leaving it plugged in at cold temps, that would be more representative, IF the heater was working, but the article instead was just a test in a possibly malfunctioning vehicle conducted by not following the manufacturers recommendations. Might as well go put 89 octane in a Ferrari and publish an article on that also.

As a primary Arizona resident, I don't have much experience in "preheating the driver seat" before driving. I cannot comment on the efficacy of Lucid's preheating implementation.

No need to debate the nuances. extreme hot/cold temperature will eat into the available mileage. Therea re lots of comments RE: heat-pumps vs AC. Warming/cooling the cabin vs ventilated seats, etc..

On my long drive from AZ to CA, I typically start around midnight. It is the most energy efficient time as the highways are not crowded and I can set "Adaptive Cruze" all the way. There is minimal cabin heating/cooling required. Light traffic means little braking and acceleration along the way. But my real reason is to get beyond LA before rush hour. LA rush hour traffic is by far the worst time and energy killer!

I keep detailed logs on my drives. I know what my Lucid (AGT) and my Rivian can do on these drives. I know the route and the charger locations I don't get range anxiety per se. I am perfectly comfortable to run it to and below 10% SoC. The lowest I ever got to was just below 2% before charging.

 

[Pragmatic]

I drive regularly to central Vermont. Sometimes I will access to an outlet sometimes I won't. I've seen temperatures in the morning of -30F (not with an EV, but my ICE started right up with a 15 year old battery). With the Lucid I've arrived with 10%, let it sit overnight then charge the next day (50 kW Chargepoint in town) to 60%. Is it ideal, no but it's how cars are used.

 

[BS8899]

I drive regularly to central Vermont. Sometimes I will access to an outlet sometimes I won't. I've seen temperatures in the morning of -30F (not with an EV, but my ICE started right up with a 15 year old battery). With the Lucid I've arrived with 10%, let it sit overnight then charge the next day (50 kW Chargepoint in town) to 60%. Is it ideal, no but it's how cars are used.

How long (distance) is your drive from NY to Vermont?

 

[BS8899]

How long (distance) is your drive from NY to Vermont?

What SoC do you start out with?

 

[Pragmatic]

260 miles. I make it without a charge in the warmer months. I charge in Albany (160 miles from destination and 100 miles from home) during the winter.

 

[BS8899]

260 miles. I make it without a charge in the warmer months. I charge in Albany (160 miles from destination and 100 miles from home) during the winter.

Thanks....what is your estimate/best guess for your efficiency miles/kWh on this route? Is there a significant differences between winter and summer?

 

[Pragmatic]

Winter 3.3, summer 3.8. It varies somewhat but these are my gut feeling of the seasonal averages. I do not record it.