NACS (Tesla adapter) versus CCS Megathread

[joec]

So 2025 is the reasonable timeline for Lucid + NACS.

They seriously need to announce something now..

IO Announcement

I'm sure they are working on it.

I still say announcing a timeline of "2025" or whatever is a huge mistake. Will send all your customers over to Tesla in the meantime. Why buy an outdated port today when the Tesla has the future proof one right now?

 

[ViperSSD]

Electrify America just signed up to add NACS to their chargers, this will probably be the high voltage NACS charging option that will force Lucid's hand.

 

[hydbob]

Just include an adapter with all new car sales!

 

[Tâm]

So 2025 is the reasonable timeline for Lucid + NACS.

They seriously need to announce something now..

IO Announcement

I thought Volkswagen would never allow that. I was seriously wrong about Electrify America which is now adopting NACS.

 

[Shuasha]

Would you buy a car today with a CCS port if the company announced that it's going to be phased out? I wouldn't, i'd wait. Something to be said about saying something early given in the scheme of things 18 months isn't that far away. People may opt to wait on buying a car until it has a NACS port natively integrated. Until Tesla shows it can deliver a V4 charger at 1000v then Lucid shouldn't say a word. Whilst the V4 chargers in Europe are indeed 1000v they're only having 500v delivered to them so they're effectively operating like V3's. So to date, Tesla hasn't shown any of us it's 1000v rollout plan or actually delivering 1000v to any vehicle on the market today. Without this information the moment Lucid announces a NACS transition people will focus on the 50Kw charging speed and nothing else.

I'm currently constantly refreshing the R1 shop on the Rivian site to hopefully get our R1S a few months early. They'll be giving the adapter to everybody starting in Q124 and I don't care if the port is CCS or NACS.

 

[xponents]

I thought Volkswagen would never allow that. I was seriously wrong about Electrify America which is now adopting NACS.

Final bomb just dropped. https://electrek.co/2023/06/29/volkswagen-talks-tesla-adopt-nacs-connector/
Lucid has literally ZERO downside with atleast making an adaptor. Even EA will add it to ALL existing and future stations by 2025. Just make an announcement stating an NACS move in 2024/25.

 

[Tâm]

Just include an adapter with all new car sales!

There are no technical reasons that Tesla technology can't work with an adapter for everyone: deal-owners and no-deal owners.

However, that's unlikely politically because I think Tesla wants to kill CCS (that's what the deal for, installing NASC starting 2025).

1) Where to get the adapter?

a) Magic Dock is attached to very few stalls, and owners can't take it home.
b) Deal-owners: Owners whose car companies deal with Tesla to install built-in NASC in 2025 (CCS extinction intention).

2) No-deal owners must use Magic Dock through the Tesla app registration system. It will be unlikely SAE NASC-compliant adapters sold by the non-Tesla shop would work if bypassing the Tesla app/Magic Dock registration system.

 

[Rob Stark]

Why buy an outdated port today when the Tesla has the future proof one right now?

Why buy an outdated car with a future proof port instead of a car with a future proof battery pack with an outdated port?

You can get an adapter to overcome the port issue.

You can't upgrade the current Tesla pack to 800v Plus.

 

[Tâm]

I'm sure they are working on it.

I still say announcing a timeline of "2025" or whatever is a huge mistake. Will send all your customers over to Tesla in the meantime. Why buy an outdated port today when the Tesla has the future proof one right now?

It's about access expansion even with a much slower rate of 50 kW 400V stations like Supercharger V3 and below.

Ford, GM, Rivian, Volvo, and Polestar potential owners will continue buying risky extinct CCS because they know their companies have their backs. When their Ford BlueOval™ Charge Network or GM Ultium Charge 360 stations are down, they know they can access Tesla stations.

On the other hand, consumers might think twice when their companies refuse to access additional stations even with the low rate of 50 kW.

It's like when a very soda specialty is out of tasty soda and refuses to sell water; consumers might go next door for the plain-tasting water store when they are dying of thirst.

 

[joec]

Why buy an outdated car with a future proof port instead of a car with a future proof battery pack with an outdated port?

You can get an adapter to overcome the port issue.

You can't upgrade the current Tesla pack to 800v Plus.

You and I know that. But the average consumer? Heck, Chevy Bolt owners insist on plugging into 350kW chargers no matter how many times you try to explain to them that they will never get fast speeds on it.

Never bet on the intelligence of the average American.

 

[Bill55]

There is no reason for Lucid to incorporate NACS port in their vehicles, as existing V3 superchargers cables will only reach if you park sideways and the voltage architecture is too slow. I know this as I’m one of the few Lucid owners to use the Tesla V3 MagicDock and it’s a pointless experience as even though the handshake and reliability of it is great, it’s rendered nearly useless because of the cable length and slow charging. Peter is correct that the V4 standard is what matters the most, but what this Ford/GM/Rivian decision is doing is spending $$$ and putting pressure on other automakers to spend $$$ to support an inferior standard. This also is a pointless conversation for Porsche Taycan, Ioniq/EV6 owners as well with their fasting charger architecture which has to down-convert to slower speeds to use Tesla NACS via adapter. The switch to current V3 superchargers means LONGER waits to charge and more stress on the chargers, as the charging will be slower for many many drivers than EA/EVGo/Chargepoint. The reliability is the only benefit I see for NACS but that may turn out to not true once you put a bunch of non-Tesla EVs on their network. The point should be to get the cars in and out of the charging stalls as quickly as possible. This switch to NACS will not achieve that.

To summarize, this conversation has no meaning for Lucid until 1000v plus NACS stations become a reality. I think that’s a much more informed rational view than @blueice89 demanding Lucid owners sell their vehicles in protest if Lucid doesn’t immediately commit to putting NACS ports on their cars.

The above already is not aging well. NACS has won. Lucid needs to support an adaptor for cars with CCS and move new cars to NACS as soon as possible. EA has jumped on the bandwagon. All NA automakers and charging companies will join, it's not if, it's when. The sooner Lucid acknowledges reality the better. As soon as there is a Lucid adaptor that lets me use Tesla superchargers, I'll place my order. More charging options. Lucid should do it for 2024, anyone want to bet me that there is no chance Lucid ships 2025 cars with CCS in NA?

 

[Tâm]

...anyone want to bet me that there is no chance Lucid ships 2025 cars with CCS in NA?...

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

www.bloomberg.com

1) It's a plug: “What we’re really comparing is, is it a screw cap or is it a cork on the bottle, not the quality of the wine...It’s rather bizarre.”

2) Caution to those who jumped on the bandwagon: “If you’ve got the most advanced technology in the world, you’re a bit reluctant to risk that”

3) Privacy: “Whoever controls this — if it isn’t an open, impartial standard, if it’s owned by one company — has access to a lot of consumer data...It’s who owns that data, and making it genuinely open-sourced, that would worry me.”

4) "the Lucid boss says the best fast-charger is no fast-charger": “Why do you have an EV? Partly because it’s better, but partly because you care about the environment,” he said. “The best thing for the environment is to have the power stations running more evenly on a 24-hour cycle. The worst thing for the environment is going charging daytime when the factories are running, everybody’s cooking.”

5) "He doesn’t rule out Lucid moving to NACS. In fact, he said the carmaker probably will eventually."

 

[changinator]

Porsche rejects NACS

 

[HariK]

Electrify America just signed up to add NACS to their chargers, this will probably be the high voltage NACS charging option that will force Lucid's hand.

I like your optimism.

 

[HariK]

The above already is not aging well. NACS has won. Lucid needs to support an adaptor for cars with CCS and move new cars to NACS as soon as possible. EA has jumped on the bandwagon. All NA automakers and charging companies will join, it's not if, it's when. The sooner Lucid acknowledges reality the better. As soon as there is a Lucid adaptor that lets me use Tesla superchargers, I'll place my order. More charging options. Lucid should do it for 2024, anyone want to bet me that there is no chance Lucid ships 2025 cars with CCS in NA?

I think NACS will see lot of unhappy customers because until now Tesla had to QA just Model 3 and Model y which are basically the same and Model X and S the same. OK they have older models. But once you add a bunch of cars to NACS, I expect software connectivity and charge curve issues to show up and the overload can also bring down the reliability. I would expect to see some consolidation in CCS players as well and hope that the competition will bring positive changes. NACS and CCS will co-exist for a long time given rest of the world is CCS and under NACS connector is also CCS protocol.

 

[borski]

Porsche rejects NACS

Source?

 

[Tâm]

...the overload can also bring down the reliability...

Overload happened at peak times like the 2019 Thanksgiving Holiday in San Luis Obispo, CA, below. But its reliability has held firm even when overused.

After that incidence, it expanded the 2-mile diameter to 16+18+20=54 stalls. They can also drive 12 miles to the next town Pismo Beach to access another 2 stations 12+8=20 stalls. In addition, Tesla drivers can buy an adapter to access CCS if those are insufficient.

My crazy peak holiday experience was at Tejon Ranch between my town in Central Valley and Los Angeles. However, Tesla did bring more portable Superchargers that helped tremendously. Now that area has 24+76=100 from the original six stalls.

But as more EVs get on the road, there are still not enough chargers. That's why someone needs to grab the NEVI fund and build more.

 

[Alex]

Source?

According to Bard:

Yes, Porsche has rejected the National Automatic Competitiveness System (NACS) for its 2023 racing season. NACS is a new racing series that was created by the Sports Car Club of America (SCCA). It is designed to be a more affordable and accessible racing series than the current Porsche Carrera Cup North America (PCNA) series.​

Porsche cited several reasons for its decision to reject NACS, including the following:​

• The NACS car is based on the Porsche 718 Cayman GT4 Clubsport, while the PCNA car is based on the Porsche 911 GT3 Cup. Porsche believes that the 911 GT3 Cup is a better platform for racing and that it will provide a more competitive and exciting racing experience.
• The NACS car is less expensive than the PCNA car, but Porsche believes that the cost savings will be offset by the lower level of competition.
• The NACS car is not eligible to compete in the 24 Hours of Le Mans, which is a major goal for many Porsche racing teams.

Porsche's decision to reject NACS is a blow to the new racing series. However, NACS has said that it is still committed to its racing program and that it is confident that it can attract other manufacturers to compete in the series.​

It remains to be seen how Porsche's decision will affect the future of NACS. However, it is clear that Porsche is not interested in competing in a racing series that it does not believe is the best platform for its cars.​

Bard was asked if this related to the North American Charging Standard:

No, the NACS that Porsche rejected is not related to the North American Charging Standard (NACS). The NACS that Porsche rejected is a new racing series, while the NACS that refers to the North American Charging Standard is a charging connector standard for electric vehicles in North America.​

The NACS charging connector standard is not used by Porsche. Porsche uses the Combined Charging System (CCS) connector standard for its electric vehicles. CCS is a more widely adopted charging standard than NACS.​

The NACS racing series is not related to the NACS charging connector standard. The NACS racing series is named after the NACS charging connector standard, but it is not actually using the NACS charging connector standard. The NACS racing series is using a custom charging connector that is not compatible with any other charging standard.​

So, the two NACS are not related to each other. The NACS that Porsche rejected is a racing series, while the NACS that refers to the North American Charging Standard is a charging connector standard.​

 

[changinator]

Source?

According to Bard:

Yes, Porsche has rejected the National Automatic Competitiveness System (NACS) for its 2023 racing season. NACS is a new racing series that was created by the Sports Car Club of America (SCCA). It is designed to be a more affordable and accessible racing series than the current Porsche Carrera Cup North America (PCNA) series.​

Porsche cited several reasons for its decision to reject NACS, including the following:​

• The NACS car is based on the Porsche 718 Cayman GT4 Clubsport, while the PCNA car is based on the Porsche 911 GT3 Cup. Porsche believes that the 911 GT3 Cup is a better platform for racing and that it will provide a more competitive and exciting racing experience.
• The NACS car is less expensive than the PCNA car, but Porsche believes that the cost savings will be offset by the lower level of competition.
• The NACS car is not eligible to compete in the 24 Hours of Le Mans, which is a major goal for many Porsche racing teams.

Porsche's decision to reject NACS is a blow to the new racing series. However, NACS has said that it is still committed to its racing program and that it is confident that it can attract other manufacturers to compete in the series.​

It remains to be seen how Porsche's decision will affect the future of NACS. However, it is clear that Porsche is not interested in competing in a racing series that it does not believe is the best platform for its cars.​

Bard was asked if this related to the North American Charging Standard:

No, the NACS that Porsche rejected is not related to the North American Charging Standard (NACS). The NACS that Porsche rejected is a new racing series, while the NACS that refers to the North American Charging Standard is a charging connector standard for electric vehicles in North America.​

The NACS charging connector standard is not used by Porsche. Porsche uses the Combined Charging System (CCS) connector standard for its electric vehicles. CCS is a more widely adopted charging standard than NACS.​

The NACS racing series is not related to the NACS charging connector standard. The NACS racing series is named after the NACS charging connector standard, but it is not actually using the NACS charging connector standard. The NACS racing series is using a custom charging connector that is not compatible with any other charging standard.​

So, the two NACS are not related to each other. The NACS that Porsche rejected is a racing series, while the NACS that refers to the North American Charging Standard is a charging connector standard.​

Porsche said to rethink plan to ditch Macan ICE sales in U.S. by mid-decade

Porsche told dealers it expects U.S. sales to hit 80,000 next year.

www.autonews.com

"At the meeting, attended by Porsche Cars North America CEO Kjell Gruner, executives demurred on plans to follow the auto industry in plugging into Tesla's Supercharger network."

 

[DeaneG]

Porsche said to rethink plan to ditch Macan ICE sales in U.S. by mid-decade

Porsche told dealers it expects U.S. sales to hit 80,000 next year.

www.autonews.com

"At the meeting, attended by Porsche Cars North America CEO Kjell Gruner, executives demurred on plans to follow the auto industry in plugging into Tesla's Supercharger network."

Demurred isn't the same as rejected. Porsche, like other 800-1000V canmakers Lucid and Hyundai/Kia, won't sign up for NACS until Tesla makes substantial progress on installing 1000V charging stations, or makes some sort of guarantee that they will in a specific time frame (not likely). IMO it's a reasonable position.