NACS (Tesla adapter) versus CCS Megathread

[Tesla2.0]

I don’t have bad EA experience as much as people in this forum or elsewhere described. But I do agree with Tom Moloughney’s point of view. Things move faster for any industry if standardization accelerates.

Currently, Tesla produces 65% of all North America’s EVs. They have 17,000 stalls vs 6,000 stalls of other brands. The growth is just not sustainable for electrification if other major brands GM, Ford don’t have time and foresight to build energy distribution business, but Tesla did. Legacy auto don’t build gas stations, they don’t touch DCFC station either. But the CCS stations are not built fast enough to keep up with ramped up demand.

CCS is not a bad design, just the software from different distributors and EV manufacturers cannot always shake hand and constantly needs to debug that remder consumers complaints. Tesla streamline that process with uniformed protocols.

Personally, I think whole industry moves to one type of connection is good thing. Just like I still have dozens of computer peripheral cables from the 90s and in retrospect USB PNP made things much easier. This country’s is built on majority rules, minority rights. Having NACS rules, and CCS has option rights of convertor to do both connection just isn’t bad and make sense.

Having to tap in extra 17,000 Tesla chargers are not really good for Tesla owners. Most of Tesla owners do admit Tesla build quality issues and they paid Tesla premium cost mostly bc of that intrinsic reliable charging stations feature. Now, that privilege is gone, many Tesla owners don’t feel it’s fair for them to share. To me, it is absolutely fair. I see Tesla at EA stations, why shouldn’t Lucid be at Tesla SCN stations too?

 

[Tâm]

I am not an engineer, so I have a question:

Is Vicor trying to sell snake oil here?

800V Taycan and GM Ultium can get a decent rate with 400V stations (150 kW for Taycan and 250 kW for GM), but Hyundai and Lucid can't (only 50 kW).

Vicor says there's no need to upgrade to 800V stations; it can sell your engineers a Vicor NBM™ bidirectional DC-DC converter/virtual battery module:

And your Hyundai and Lucid would cars would think the 400V station is supplying 800V:

 

[Tâm]

...CCS is not a bad design...

Very clunky, bulky, and ugly!

The engineering may be the best, but its form factor is atrocious!

Personally, I think whole industry moves to one type of connection is good thing.

At the current rate, the single standard has zero chance for the next 5 years until NEVI funding runs out. We will continue to have 1 form factor for NACS, 2 form factors for CCS (AC and DC).

That's because NEVI funding still mandates a minimum of 4 CCS per location.

...Now, that privilege is gone, many Tesla owners don’t feel it’s fair for them to share. To me, it is absolutely fair. I see Tesla at EA stations, why shouldn’t Lucid be at Tesla SCN stations too?

I've heard that complaint since I first bought Tesla Model S in 2012. Model S owners griped and didn't want to share Superchargers with the upcoming Model X, and then with the flood of Model 3 and Model Y.

But that fear was unfounded because I saw Tesla has scaled up quite very well except when there are major holidays in the early years.

However, for the past 5-6 years, Tesla has done a good job of covering major holidays too.

There used to be only 1 single stall of Supercharger for Harris Ranch (middle of San Francisco and Los Angeles) but now there are 98.

There used to be only 6 Superchargers in Tejon Ranch, CA but now there are 24 on the West side of the freeway and another 76 on the East side of the freeway or a total of 100!

With the NEVI funding coming, Tesla owners' fear will also be likely an over-exaggeration.

 

[Tesla2.0]

I am not an engineer, so I have a question:

Is Vicor trying to sell snake oil here?

800V Taycan and GM Ultium can get a decent rate with 400V stations (150 kW for Taycan and 250 kW for GM), but Hyundai and Lucid can't (only 50 kW).

Vicor says there's no need to upgrade to 800V stations; it can sell your engineers a Vicor NBM™ bidirectional DC-DC converter/virtual battery module:

And your Hyundai and Lucid would cars would think the 400V station is supplying 800V:

Lucid has onboard convertor in Wunderbox which currently does 50kW. I don’t know if it is economical to change convertor at higher speed like Taycan does as optional upgrade. I wouldn’t sweat too much for range anxiety. When GM and Fire start to show up at Tesla SCN stations, that will free up some station bandwidth at EA.

 

[quantum]

Lucid has onboard convertor in Wunderbox which currently does 50kW. I don’t know if it is economical to change convertor at higher speed like Taycan does as optional upgrade. I wouldn’t sweat too much for range anxiety. When GM and Fire start to show up at Tesla SCN stations, that will free up some station bandwidth at EA.

might be something to consider though, at least to appease the " oh my God, Lucid can't use the 400V charging but Mercedes and Porsce can crowd " ...it will increase sales if Lucid can also use 400 V NACS using an adaptor to charge at speeds greater than 50v, also will give the stock price a bump. Mercedes are going to announce their move to NACS soon and that will be a thumbs down for Lucid vs EQS. Sales will take a hit. I hope Lucid engineering has started exploring a fix like Porsche giving option for an on board 400V DC charger at higher speeds for a price. I would hold developement on the Saphire and move funds to find a fix.

 

[DeaneG]

Vicor has nothing to offer Lucid. Lucid's engineers have already designed similar hardware that's in the Wiunderbox. They chose a 50kW maximum power level, which was a reasonable choice at the time they made it given the information anyone had.

You can't put a high power dc-dc converter in an adapter. At best these kind of converters are around 99% efficient. That means that 1% of the power that enters it will be converted to heat, about 1.5kW of heat for a 150kW converter. This amount of heat can only be removed through liquid cooling of the converter.

 

[Babyrocko1908]

I understand that. My post was not intended to stir anything but rather express an opinion that my preference (and the preference of the vast majority of EV users) is to have lucid adopt NACS.

Vast majority based on what? The poll here? You do understand that this forum represents a small percentage of overall Lucid owners right?

 

[quantum]

Looking at NEVI funding, it stipulates a CCS connection. I'm curious why Ford/GM/Rivian are installing NACS. Wouldn't that be unnecessary in the long run? Tesla won't get NEVI funding unless they install a CCS connection , so what the point in switching to NACS for these companies. Perhaps, Lucid staying with CCS is best for the longrun. Thoughts?

 

[joec]

Looking at NEVI funding, it stipulates a CCS connection. I'm curious why Ford/GM/Rivian are installing NACS. Wouldn't that be unnecessary in the long run? Tesla won't get NEVI funding unless they install a CCS connection , so what the point in switching to NACS for these companies. Perhaps, Lucid staying with CCS is best for the longrun. Thoughts?

NACS connectors are cheaper. If Ford can save $5 per car on a cheaper piece of plastic, they will do it. Every time.

 

[Tesla2.0]

Looking at NEVI funding, it stipulates a CCS connection. I'm curious why Ford/GM/Rivian are installing NACS. Wouldn't that be unnecessary in the long run? Tesla won't get NEVI funding unless they install a CCS connection , so what the point in switching to NACS for these companies. Perhaps, Lucid staying with CCS is best for the longrun. Thoughts?

Which is why Tesla had Magic Dock. That Magic Dock adapter is cost effective solution and Tesla does save alot of LCD UI programming on each stall and let it be on user app which can be more dynamically update and robustness.

Tesla will get NEVI funding for the optic of Magic Dock.

 

[Tâm]

Looking at NEVI funding, it stipulates a CCS connection. I'm curious why Ford/GM/Rivian are installing NACS. Wouldn't that be unnecessary in the long run? Tesla won't get NEVI funding unless they install a CCS connection , so what the point in switching to NACS for these companies. Perhaps, Lucid staying with CCS is best for the longrun. Thoughts?

Remember, the requirement is too minimal. It hardly hits the budget to install Magic Dock.

The requirement calls for 4 CCS per location and in Tejon Ranch, there currently 100 stalls. Converting 4 stalls into Magic Dock is just play money to get the Casino jackpot from the government.

I don't think Tesla likes adapters in the first place. They are points of failure and YouTubers already shows us how to steal the adapter from the Magic Dock already. It does adapters because it must, not because it wants to.

Ford, GM, Rivian don't want to wait for very few Magic Dock so that's why they will get their very own adapters next year.

Peter Rawlingson said it's a plug but those 3 companies see beyond that. There are lots of interoperability software issues between numerous independent chargers. These 3 companies want to pass that headache to Tesla software team. They want when their drivers plug in a Supercharger, it just works as if it's a Tesla car. It's easier to deal with 1 instead of 40 charger vendors.

 

[DeaneG]

NACS connectors are cheaper. If Ford can save $5 per car on a cheaper piece of plastic, they will do it. Every time.

NACS requires an additional contactor in the car though, as its two power pins carry either AC or DC for level 2 or 3 charging respectively. That will negate any cost savings in the car's connector.

 

[Worldwide Beagle]

NACS connectors are cheaper. If Ford can save $5 per car on a cheaper piece of plastic, they will do it. Every time.

And always have. I remember studying the Ford Pinto litigation. Down to their corporate benefit cost analysis for an easy fix vs the "cost of wrongful death suits". Reading the internal memos will send a chill. Makes the VW/Audi dieselgate look tame-at least no one was BBQed.

 

[DeaneG]

Looking at NEVI funding, it stipulates a CCS connection. I'm curious why Ford/GM/Rivian are installing NACS. Wouldn't that be unnecessary in the long run? Tesla won't get NEVI funding unless they install a CCS connection , so what the point in switching to NACS for these companies. Perhaps, Lucid staying with CCS is best for the longrun. Thoughts?

There's some thought that NEVI's other requirements, like a payment terminal, may be more than Tesla wants to bother with. They're currently the only vendor installing reliable fast charging hardware. They are in a very strong negotiating position if they do choose to bother with NEVI.

 

[Tesla2.0]

Remember, the requirement is too minimal. It hardly hits the budget to install Magic Dock.

The requirement calls for 4 CCS per location and in Tejon Ranch, there currently 100 stalls. Converting 4 stalls into Magic Dock is just play money to get the Casino jackpot from the government.

I don't think Tesla likes adapters in the first place. They are points of failure and YouTubers already shows us how to steal the adapter from the Magic Dock already. It does adapters because it must, not because it wants to.

Ford, GM, Rivian don't want to wait for very few Magic Dock so that's why they will get their very own adapters next year.

Peter Rawlingson said it's a plug but those 3 companies see beyond that. There are lots of interoperability software issues between numerous independent chargers. These 3 companies want to pass that headache to Tesla software team. They want when their drivers plug in a Supercharger, it just works as if it's a Tesla car. It's easier to deal with 1 instead of 40 charger vendors.

Business is warfare. Strategies and tactics of war comprise flexibility, deception and vision. Let the Lucid management figure it out than us being armchair CEO.

 

[hydbob]

Business is warfare. Strategies and tactics of war comprise flexibility, deception and vision. Let the Lucid management figure it out than us being armchair CEO.

I thought the requirement to be part of this forum was knowing how to run a multi billion dollar company.

 

[Neurio]

I thought the requirement to be part of this forum was knowing how to run a multi billion dollar company.

Some people just don't get the hint. Or read the rules.

 

[HC_79]

Mercedes are going to announce their move to NACS soon

Source? I didn’t see the official Press Release from Mercedes that they’re switching or announcing a switch to NACS soon.

The word “considering” is not a guarantee of switching to NACS.

 

[Tâm]

More details on the cost of the deal:

"GM and Ford say they're not paying Tesla anything for access to the network, but owners will pay Tesla to charge just like any other charging system."

Rivian joining Tesla charging network, inches closer to becoming industry standard

Electric vehicle maker Rivian says it will follow General Motors and Ford and join Tesla's charging network next year.

www.cbsnews.com

 

[BobFM]

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