NACS (Tesla adapter) versus CCS Megathread

[BradSholl]

The advantage of an agreement, even if it's for an adapter and not a change in ports down the line, would be seeing Tesla chargers incorporated into the routing. That could be done anyway, assuming the navigation setup had a checkbox for it.

In a Rivian forum, users expressed overwhelming support for the changeover. Personally, I don't see a big advantage to Lucid charging a few minutes faster if I'm unlikely to benefit. There's lots of range to begin with, and any speed advantage is lost the first time I get to a charger that doesn't work or is in use. When I do plan to stop, it will likely be to charge while I'm having lunch, so it wouldn't matter if I have added a certain number of miles in 12 minutes.

Lucid (or at least the salesman in Newark) is saying that the solution will be Tesla's Magic Jack that they are installing, but I don't see that happening fast. If anything, other companies adopting the standard and supplying adapters makes it less likely.

I seldom fast charge, but to my understanding…due to the need to up-convert because of our 900v architecture , Tesla chargers will only deliver ~50kw charging to a Lucid. I routinely see folks here posting speeds of 150-200kw from current CCS chargers so you better plan on lunch, shopping and a nap to achieve the same level of charge.

 

[changinator]

I'm not an engineer, but can someone explain why Lucid can't just engineer the wunderbox to do 150kw with 400v dc charging also or add an optional onboard charger that can? Porsche has an option install an onboard 150kw 400v dc charger ontop of their 800v system that only costs $460.

 

[DeaneG]

Assuming that the Wunderbox's existing cooling system has sufficient capacity, and there is enough physical space remaining (two big assumptions), Lucid could redesign it to handle any amount of power they choose. But it would take at about two years for redesign and requalification before production could begin. In the meantime, Tesla will be retrofitting existing v3 changing stations to supply 1000v, making the effort moot. I am an electrical engineer.

 

[HariK]

I am an electrical engineer with knowledge of inverters switches DC to DC converters. Batteries in series are hardwired for a certain voltage. It is not easy to step down high voltage DC to lower or step up as in AC with a transformer. Porsche may have designed it such that there are other 2 sets in series which can be rewired to be parallel using switches but switching such high voltage DC is not really good even with solid-state switches instead of electro mechanical relays.

 

[HariK]

One more thing. At higher voltage 800v 200kw you need 25A copper wire. At 400V 200kw you need 50A much thicker wire. Not something you reprogram.

 

[emoylv]

Tech Talks Episode 3 on the Wunderbox gives a nice review of this topic at around the 12-minute mark.

Tech Talks | Lucid Motors

Learn how we designed Lucid Air —by miniaturizing the electric motor, inverter, and transmission into a compact unit while maximizing interior space.

www.lucidmotors.com

 

[blueice89]

Ignoring the whole 400vs 1000v architecture I prefer the NaCS plug cause it’s smaller and eventually most evs in North America will use it.

 

[DeaneG]

....Porsche may have designed it such that there are other 2 sets in series which can be rewired to be parallel using switches but switching such high voltage DC is not really good even with solid-state switches instead of electro mechanical relays.

GM parallel/series switched their battery for 400/800v but Lucid, Porsche, E-GMP use dc-dc conversion methods. E-GMP actually uses the rear drive motor as the high frequency magnetic element, very clever.

 

[Tâm]

Ignoring the whole 400vs 1000v architecture I prefer the NaCS plug cause it’s smaller and eventually most evs in North America will use it.

You sound like a consumer

If you are an engineer, wouldn't you tell me CCS is much more muscular by just looking at its cable?

I am not an engineer so I like the small single form factor from NACS for both AC and fast DC too.

 

[DeaneG]

You sound like a consumer

If you are an engineer, wouldn't you tell me CCS is much more muscular by just looking at its cable?

I am not an engineer so I like the small single form factor from NACS for both AC and fast DC too.

NACS power handling capability is similar to CCS.

 

[HariK]

GM parallel/series switched their battery for 400/800v but Lucid, Porsche, E-GMP use dc-dc conversion methods. E-GMP actually uses the rear drive motor as the high frequency magnetic element, very clever.

You mean they use the motor like a transformer?

 

[DeaneG]

You mean they use the motor like a transformer?

Yes, or as the inductor in a simple boost converter, I don't know which. They are likely also using the drive inverter's switch transistors (and cooling system, etc) for this conversion, so likely very few additional parts were needed for a high power conversion capability.

 

[Tesla2.0]

This video shows some perspective. I do agree with industry advance faster on standardization.

 

[HariK]

Yes, or as the inductor in a simple boost converter, I don't know which. They are likely also using the drive inverter's switch transistors (and cooling system, etc) for this conversion, so likely very few additional parts were needed for a high power conversion capability.

Very innovative.

 

[austinlucid]

Tesla Cybertruck has 1,000V architecture so V4 will certainly arrive in the US soon.

I did some searching on this, and while it doesn't seem to be guaranteed, it does seem to be highly likely.

I guess my question is that, if the Cybertruck is released with the requirement for higher voltage, does that mean the existing Supercharger network will be as (near) useless to them as it would be capped to 50 kW charging speeds? This seems like it would be a crazy decision on Tesla's part, as I'd imagine most Cybertruck owners wouldn't realize this and would be pretty pissed if this were the case. Of course, maybe Tesla will have made more progress on v4 charging by the time Cybertruck eventually is released.

In any case, this would be great news for Lucid and other high voltage battery cars like Porsche and Kia, as Tesla would have a strong internal incentive to upgrade their Supercharger network.

 

[Viking]

I did see that Kyle Conner on Out of Spec podcast speculated that the V3 chargers could be upgraded to 1000V. You still have a cable length problem, but if he is right then that would open up 1000V access much faster.

 

[Tâm]

...You still have a cable length problem, but if he is right then that would open up 1000V access much faster.

I think it's reasonable to assume that when they retrofit to 1,000V, they might as well retrofit with the longer cable at the same time.

 

[Haggy]

I think it's reasonable to assume that when they retrofit to 1,000V, they might as well retrofit with the longer cable at the same time.

In the meantime, they will be coming out with adapters for users of other cars from companies that recently agreed to go with NACS. It might be less of a problem for Lucid, assuming that owners won't be likely to use stations that haven't been retrofitted, but unless the adapters that they supply to owners of other cars all come with longer cables, it's reasonable to expect that the stations will have longer cables. If they don't, it won't just be a matter of reaching, which many cars will be able to do only by using two spaces. So longer cables are in their best interest.

There's no saying when or even if they will retrofit, and it may come down to them using V4 equipment at new installations, and let the old equipment depreciate over time as scheduled. For now, Lucid is saying no to everything except "magic docks will be there in the future," at least as of two days ago.

 

[Tâm]

In the meantime, they will be coming out with adapters for users of other cars from companies that recently agreed to go with NACS. It might be less of a problem for Lucid, assuming that owners won't be likely to use stations that haven't been retrofitted, but unless the adapters that they supply to owners of other cars all come with longer cables, it's reasonable to expect that the stations will have longer cables. If they don't, it won't just be a matter of reaching, which many cars will be able to do only by using two spaces. So longer cables are in their best interest.

There's no saying when or even if they will retrofit, and it may come down to them using V4 equipment at new installations, and let the old equipment depreciate over time as scheduled. For now, Lucid is saying no to everything except "magic docks will be there in the future," at least as of two days ago.

Logically, Ford, GM, and Rivivian NASC agreement would cover the issue of unreachable cables when adapters are available in 2024.

To prevent consumer complaints, Tesla should retrofit existing stations with longer cables as a priority over the 1,000V retrofit.

Since NASC agreement drivers will have NASC built-in navigation, it's reasonable that the system should guide the driver to the usable stations/stalls depending on the long cable retrofit status.

 

[Haggy]

Logically, Ford, GM, and Rivivian NASC agreement would cover the issue of unreachable cables when adapters are available in 2024.

To prevent consumer complaints, Tesla should retrofit existing stations with longer cables as a priority over the 1,000V retrofit.

Since NASC agreement drivers will have NASC built-in navigation, it's reasonable that the system should guide the driver to the usable stations/stalls depending on the long cable retrofit status.

Ideally, any car with CSS should at least give the option of Tesla chargers if they have magic jacks. For now, Tesla stations without magic jacks are not accessible to people though the "charge a non-Tesla" feature. That even includes if I want to charge a car with an NACS port. Granted, there aren't any aside from Teslas, but I can't even use the feature to charge somebody else's Tesla using my account. But for the ones with capability but short cables, they do show up in people's apps.