NACS (Tesla adapter) versus CCS Megathread

[Bunnylebowski]

I worry ( perhaps irrationally) that from a marketing perspective, this whole thing may hurt Lucid. On the other hand, if this forces other EV charging manufacturers to up their game, it will be a net win. I speak to far too many people who are hesitant to embrace any EV besides Tesla because of charging anxiety. Out here where I live, this is a real issue , as DCFC can be spaced very far apart. If one is down it can be a problem. Hasn’t happened to me, but I have a couple friends who have been in precarious and or frustrating situations . Love the car and want to see it and the company succeed.

Yeah it’s a legitimate concern, and I know several non-Tesla EV owners quite aggravated at CCS DCFC options and reliability. But it’s less of a problem for Lucid because the cars have far more range than other EVs and there’s no way it can do much with NACS V3 superchargers anyway unless Lucid could somehow change the WunderBox and make NACS adapter long enough to reach the car. I wish Lucid could but I don’t think it’s as simple as just having a NACS adapter, as I’ve already used that and it sucks. I do think non-Tesla DCFC companies putting NACS plugs on their stations is a good thing, and hopefully it will incentivize them to improve reliability since it will increase usage particularly in 2025. But for Lucid any switch to V3 NACS isn’t going to help them much, instead we really need the V4 ones if the whole country is going to switch to NACS.

 

[Bunnylebowski]

Like if Lucid put a NACS input plug on all cars right now, it would not help me at all, as I’d still have to park sideways at Tesla stations, and have very slow speeds, and that’s not just for Lucid owners. It’s hilarious Ford is putting the ports in as Tom Moloughney showed to charge at the Tesla V3 station the Lightning will only reach if you’re one inch from bollard and probably bump into it, and the MagicDock adapter adds a few inches of length, so using the standard V3 plug into a Lightning might actually not reach. I saw it, he had to put a lot of tension on that cable to reach with the MagicDock. Ford would need to put the port in the front like Rivian.

 

[Tâm]

I would love to have a CCS1 to NACS adapter with its own serial number/certificate/whatever is needed to authenticate to the system for back end billing so it can be swapped from car to car. It would need to be around 5 feet long to extend cables as needed. Is there a reason that can't happen?

Currently, only those who have have an agreement (Ford, GM, Rivian...) will get an adapter for their CCS cars in 2024.

There is no indication that Tesla will sell you one without a Lucid agreement.

If a Ford owner shares that adapter for Lucid, it won't work because the handshake will identify you as the wrong car.

That means Lucid owners who want to use Superchargers need to go to very few locations that have a Magic Dock that doesn’t need an agreement with your car company.

Thus, to use Supercharger, Lucid does not need to enter into an agreement. Even when there's one, it won't be effective until 2024 anyway.

However, owners want Lucid to get an agreement because it will make Supercharger process easier even there's a delay of 6 months.

.We will continue to use one Lucid app instead of a second one with Tesla.

.we won't need to only go to a very few Magic Docks to Supercharge in 2024.

.We won't need to use Supercharger at the derated, slower speed of 50 kW until our CCS is down and we can have an option to fall back to. It's just like a spare tire.

About waiting the proof that V4 Supercharger with 1,000V will work before an agreement: Technically, NACS is CCS compatible so the chance that V4 won't work with Lucid is very slim.

V4 is being rolled out in Europe:

Tesla V4 Supercharger details continue to spill: built-in CCS, fastest charging speeds yet

Tesla’s new V4 Supercharger has started its initial rollout in Europe, and details are still continuing to spill out ahead of the first installations in the United States. The V4 Supercharger is Tesla’s latest iteration of its industry-leading EV charging network, and with the recent...

www.teslarati.com

Tesla Cybertruck has 1,000V architecture so V4 will certainly arrive in the US soon.

 

[DeaneG]

Those were just V4 dispensers, still being operated by v3 power conversion cabinets. No 1000v V4 power conversion cabinets have been installed anywhere yet.

 

[hydbob]

Currently, only those who have have an agreement (Ford, GM, Rivian...) will get an adapter for their CCS cars in 2024.

There is no indication that Tesla will sell you one without a Lucid agreement.

If a Ford owner shares that adapter for Lucid, it won't work because the handshake will identify you as the wrong car.

That means Lucid owners who want to use Superchargers need to go to very few locations that have a Magic Dock that doesn’t need an agreement with your car company.

Thus, to use Supercharger, Lucid does not need to enter into an agreement. Even when there's one, it won't be effective until 2024 anyway.

However, owners want Lucid to get an agreement because it will make Supercharger process easier even there's a delay of 6 months.

.We will continue to use one Lucid app instead of a second one with Tesla.

.we won't need to only go to a very few Magic Docks to Supercharge in 2024.

.We won't need to use Supercharger at the derated, slower speed of 50 kW until our CCS is down and we can have an option to fall back to. It's just like a spare tire.

About waiting the proof that V4 Supercharger with 1,000V will work before an agreement: Technically, NACS is CCS compatible so the chance that V4 won't work with Lucid is very slim.

V4 is being rolled out in Europe:

Tesla V4 Supercharger details continue to spill: built-in CCS, fastest charging speeds yet

Tesla’s new V4 Supercharger has started its initial rollout in Europe, and details are still continuing to spill out ahead of the first installations in the United States. The V4 Supercharger is Tesla’s latest iteration of its industry-leading EV charging network, and with the recent...

www.teslarati.com

Tesla Cybertruck has 1,000V architecture so V4 will certainly arrive in the US soon.

I've refrained from saying anything but it appears you are making an awful lot of assumptions on how exactly this rollout is happening. Unless you have some inside knowledge, has the information you've been presenting as facts been released to the public yet?

 

[xponents]

I worry ( perhaps irrationally) that from a marketing perspective, this whole thing may hurt Lucid. On the other hand, if this forces other EV charging manufacturers to up their game, it will be a net win. I speak to far too many people who are hesitant to embrace any EV besides Tesla because of charging anxiety. Out here where I live, this is a real issue , as DCFC can be spaced very far apart. If one is down it can be a problem. Hasn’t happened to me, but I have a couple friends who have been in precarious and or frustrating situations . Love the car and want to see it and the company succeed.

It hurts them both ways. If they do, then stock idiots will say that "Lucid has no choice but to hide under Tesla's wing," or some other BS like that.

 

[Bobby]

It hurts them both ways. If they do, then stock idiots will say that "Lucid has no choice but to hide under Tesla's wing," or some other BS like that.

Stock idiots? What's that?

 

[Bunnylebowski]

Those were just V4 dispensers, still being operated by v3 power conversion cabinets. No 1000v V4 power conversion cabinets have been installed anywhere yet.

This is why the “demand everyone go NACS” conversation is confusing to me. I thought once V4 was actually rolled out everyone, Tesla and non-Tesla alike would be able to use those stations, as they’re getting the NEVI funding for that, are they not?

 

[joec]

There is no reason for Lucid to incorporate NACS port in their vehicles, as existing V3 superchargers cables will only reach if you park sideways and the voltage architecture is too slow. I know this as I’m one of the few Lucid owners to use the Tesla V3 MagicDock and it’s a pointless experience as even though the handshake and reliability of it is great, it’s rendered nearly useless because of the cable length and slow charging. Peter is correct that the V4 standard is what matters the most, but what this Ford/GM/Rivian decision is doing is spending $$$ and putting pressure on other automakers to spend $$$ to support an inferior standard. This also is a pointless conversation for Porsche Taycan, Ioniq/EV6 owners as well with their fasting charger architecture which has to down-convert to slower speeds to use Tesla NACS via adapter. The switch to current V3 superchargers means LONGER waits to charge and more stress on the chargers, as the charging will be slower for many many drivers than EA/EVGo/Chargepoint. The reliability is the only benefit I see for NACS but that may turn out to not true once you put a bunch of non-Tesla EVs on their network. The point should be to get the cars in and out of the charging stalls as quickly as possible. This switch to NACS will not achieve that.

To summarize, this conversation has no meaning for Lucid until 1000v plus NACS stations become a reality. I think that’s a much more informed rational view than @blueice89 demanding Lucid owners sell their vehicles in protest if Lucid doesn’t immediately commit to putting NACS ports on their cars.

Can we just replace all 21 pages of this thread with this one post? It's the perfect TL,DR for this topic.

 

[Tâm]

I've refrained from saying anything but it appears you are making an awful lot of assumptions on how exactly this rollout is happening. Unless you have some inside knowledge, has the information you've been presenting as facts been released to the public yet?

You are right that these are my assumptions because no one shows me the agreement and there’s no indication that a Lucid owner without agreement can't get the same adapter that Ford, GM, Rivian will get in 2024 either...

It's all assumptions indeed.

 

[Tâm]

This is why the “demand everyone go NACS” conversation is confusing to me. I thought once V4 was actually rolled out everyone, Tesla and non-Tesla alike would be able to use those stations, as they’re getting the NEVI funding for that, are they not?

We know it requires a minimum of 4 CCS ports at each charging location. That can be easily met with Magic Dock.

The NEVI power requirement is:

"Power Level​

This final rule establishes a requirement that each DCFC located along and designed to serve users of designated AFCs must simultaneously deliver up to 150kW, as requested by the EV, and that each AC Level 2 port be capable of providing at least 6 kW per port simultaneously across all AC ports with an option to allow the customer to consent to accept a lower power level to allow power sharing or to participate in smart charge management programs. This final rule also clarifies that power sharing is permissible above the minimum 150-kW per-port requirement for DCFCs."

The 150 kW requirement could easily met with 400V cars like Ford, GM and Rivian.

However, that requirement cannot be met for 800V cars like Lucid with existing US Superchargers unless there will be V4 coming to boost the rate to 350 kW for Lucid.

 

[DeaneG]

We know it requires a minimum of 4 CCS ports at each charging location. That can be easily met with Magic Dock.

The NEVI power requirement is:

"Power Level​

This final rule establishes a requirement that each DCFC located along and designed to serve users of designated AFCs must simultaneously deliver up to 150kW, as requested by the EV, and that each AC Level 2 port be capable of providing at least 6 kW per port simultaneously across all AC ports with an option to allow the customer to consent to accept a lower power level to allow power sharing or to participate in smart charge management programs. This final rule also clarifies that power sharing is permissible above the minimum 150-kW per-port requirement for DCFCs."

The 150 kW requirement could easily met with 400V cars like Ford, GM and Rivian.

However, that requirement cannot be met for 800V cars like Lucid with existing US Superchargers unless there will be V4 coming to boost the rate to 350 kW for Lucid.

There is an additional NEVI requirement for minimum 920 volt charging that V3 superchargers can not meet. V4 is expected to.

 

[Tâm]

There is an additional NEVI requirement for minimum 920 volt charging that V3 superchargers can not meet. V4 is expected to.

It looks like anything between 250 to 920V as long as 150kW is achieved:

"The FHWA agrees with the recommendation to specify required DCFC output voltage and has updated this final rule to include the requirement that each DCFC port support output voltages between 250 volts DC and 920 volts DC. Regardless of the operating voltage of the battery, so that EVs are able to receive at least 150 kW per port, FHWA suggests that DCFC connectors be rated with a current carrying capacity of greater than or equal to 375 Amps. Also, FHWA agrees that smart charge management is usually not appropriate for fast charging stations, so reference to it was removed from the DCFC power requirement in this final rule."

 

[DeaneG]

It looks like anything between 250 to 920V as long as 150kW is achieved:

"The FHWA agrees with the recommendation to specify required DCFC output voltage and has updated this final rule to include the requirement that each DCFC port support output voltages between 250 volts DC and 920 volts DC. Regardless of the operating voltage of the battery, so that EVs are able to receive at least 150 kW per port, FHWA suggests that DCFC connectors be rated with a current carrying capacity of greater than or equal to 375 Amps. Also, FHWA agrees that smart charge management is usually not appropriate for fast charging stations, so reference to it was removed from the DCFC power requirement in this final rule."

That language means that the charger must support all battery voltages between 250 and 920 volts. To do this, the charger must be capable of providing 920 volts.

 

[Bunnylebowski]

Can we just replace all 21 pages of this thread with this one post? It's the perfect TL,DR for this topic.

Funny InsideEVs wrote something similar, I just hadn’t read it yet. They agree it does r make much sense for Lucid to support NACS.

Lucid Appears Reluctant To NACS, Needs High-Voltage Version

Lucid Motors is not expected to be among the first movers to adopt the Tesla's North American Charging Standard (NACS).

insideevs.com

 

[Shuasha]

Do you mean NACS to CCS? Tesla would need to allow this, and they haven't. There are CCS to NACS adapters available from a variety of sources.

Not for L3 charging that I've seen. Tesla sells their CCS1 to NACS adapter for $250, so something similar to that.

 

[DeaneG]

Not for L3 charging that I've seen. Tesla sells their CCS1 to NACS adapter for $250, so something similar to that.

Tesla and others make an adapter to charge NACS (Tesla) cars from CCS, a CCS->NACS adapter. We have to wait for Tesla to allow a NACS->CCS adapter to be used on their network, as well as the adapter itself.

 

[Shuasha]

Tesla and others make an adapter to charge NACS (Tesla) cars from CCS, a CCS->NACS adapter. We have to wait for Tesla to allow a NACS->CCS adapter to be used on their network, as well as the adapter itself.

I think we're saying the same thing but missing each other.

Tesla could sell a NACS (female port) to CCS (Male Port) that is registered with them with automatic billing and they would be sold out for the foreseeable future. They don't exist for L3 charging yet.

 

[Tâm]

I think we're saying the same thing but missing each other.

Tesla could sell a NACS (female port) to CCS (Male Port) that is registered with them with automatic billing and they would be sold out for the foreseeable future. They don't exist for L3 charging yet.

It sounds like you are asking since Ford, GM, and Rivian CCS cars will get an adapter in 2024, why not sell those directly to us without going through a Lucid agreement?

Logically, Tesla should make access easy, including a personal adapter, to collect more revenue.

Might it not be a technical issue but a political one?

 

[Haggy]

It sounds like you are asking since Ford, GM, and Rivian CCS cars will get an adapter in 2024, why not sell those directly to us without going through a Lucid agreement?

Logically, Tesla should make access easy, including a personal adapter, to collect more revenue.

Might it not be a technical issue but a political one?

The advantage of an agreement, even if it's for an adapter and not a change in ports down the line, would be seeing Tesla chargers incorporated into the routing. That could be done anyway, assuming the navigation setup had a checkbox for it.

In a Rivian forum, users expressed overwhelming support for the changeover. Personally, I don't see a big advantage to Lucid charging a few minutes faster if I'm unlikely to benefit. There's lots of range to begin with, and any speed advantage is lost the first time I get to a charger that doesn't work or is in use. When I do plan to stop, it will likely be to charge while I'm having lunch, so it wouldn't matter if I have added a certain number of miles in 12 minutes.

Lucid (or at least the salesman in Newark) is saying that the solution will be Tesla's Magic Jack that they are installing, but I don't see that happening fast. If anything, other companies adopting the standard and supplying adapters makes it less likely.