NACS (Tesla adapter) versus CCS Megathread

[xponents]

Let's stir this shit pot of speculation even more by presenting this scenario of...what happens if Tesla denies Lucid access to the Supercharger Network and just flat out says no?

I mean, that isnt really how it works. Its an open patent, so lucid can use it as they please. Unless Tesla specifically denies them from using the NETWORK, in which case we are most definitely screwed.

 

[MorganB]

Like China, Europe make a decision on single EV plug for consumers. China and Europe consumers cannot vote with their money to choose which formats.

It's chosen by politics and not money.

In that narrow sense, the capitalists for freedom to choose an EV plug format is both dead in China and Europe.

Yes a single EV plug creates a seamless experience for charging and is more practical for infrastructure. It's really not a freedom of capitalism decision. There are all sorts of infrastructure elements that are dictated by governments including the US. Here consumers are not voting with their money either. I didn't "vote" for CSS by choosing Lucid nor did someone "vote" for the Tesla connector by choosing a Tesla. I didn't have a choice on connectors or charging networks (Tesla vs others) and I still don't. The "vote" was in boardrooms between Tesla and auto manufacturers. It's not about capitalism. In fact the decision in Europe was to protect the consumer.

 

[Plg]

Lucid CEO weighs in on Tesla NACS, states priority should be on ultra-high voltage charging — TESLARATI

Based on recent reports, it would appear that automakers and EV charging companies left and right are adopting the Tesla North American Charging Standard (NACS). Amidst these updates, Lucid CEO Peter Rawlinson has shared his thoughts about the matter, as well as the NACS vs. CCS debate.

apple.news

 

[DeaneG]

Lucid CEO weighs in on Tesla NACS, states priority should be on ultra-high voltage charging — TESLARATI

Based on recent reports, it would appear that automakers and EV charging companies left and right are adopting the Tesla North American Charging Standard (NACS). Amidst these updates, Lucid CEO Peter Rawlinson has shared his thoughts about the matter, as well as the NACS vs. CCS debate.

apple.news

I didn't read anything saying that Lucid would hold onto CCS. I read that they'll do what is needed to have ubiquitous, reliable 1000V charging.

 

[austinlucid]

Lucid CEO weighs in on Tesla NACS, states priority should be on ultra-high voltage charging — TESLARATI

Based on recent reports, it would appear that automakers and EV charging companies left and right are adopting the Tesla North American Charging Standard (NACS). Amidst these updates, Lucid CEO Peter Rawlinson has shared his thoughts about the matter, as well as the NACS vs. CCS debate.

apple.news

What a weird article. I thought the interview was good, and the Lucid CEO is making the important point that (especially for Lucid cars) the plug type is secondary, but it's the voltage level that is critical. But then the article author goes on with the non-sequitor that "By adopting the NACS, carmakers could gain access to Tesla’s expansive Supercharger Network without any adapters. This immediately gives owners of compatible electric cars the capability to travel long distances all over the United States."

But the whole point that the Lucid CEO is making is that the existing supercharger network is only slightly better than useless for long trips for Lucids, because the low voltage means that it is capped out at 50 kW charging.

As for the previous comment about whether we should lock this thread, FWIW I know this must be tiresome to folks that have been following this closely, but for people like me who only pop in every now and then, this thread has been really helpful and informative to me - I didn't even know about the voltage issue until reading through this thread and linked sites. And while the political debates get annoying, there is frequently good new info like this interview with the Lucid CEO.

 

[Tâm]

Let's stir this shit pot of speculation even more by presenting this scenario of...what happens if Tesla denies Lucid access to the Supercharger Network and just flat out says no?

It's a small but still a real possibility if there's bad blood among the two.

If Tesla denies a Supercharger access deal to Lucid, Lucid still can access to third party independent stations.

Although the companies may not have a deal with each other, Tesla won't refuse to take money from Lucid owners at Supercharger stations.

The deal makes the Supercharger process seamless as if it’s a Ford, GM, Rivian brand billing and charging without using Tesla app.

Without a deal, Lucid owners have to use the Tesla app and have read which stall they are using and report the findings to Tesla app...

It might be a good idea to raise new fundings in order to build out Lucid charging network especially there's Federal funding to dip into.

 

[Genghis]

I didn't read anything saying that Lucid would hold onto CCS. I read that they'll do what is needed to have ubiquitous, reliable 1000V charging.

That's exactly how I took it when I listened to the whole interview the first time. However, only a handful of manufacturers and less than 1% of current EV owners would benefit currently with 1000V charging.

I think it's better for the infrastructure to build out, charging tech to be better, and government funding and regulations be standardized. There's no rush for Lucid to adopt now, and they can wait. Just like Android Auto... I would rather wait and get the best integrated solution released to us versus half ass, broken integration that everyone is going to complain about. Do it right the first time.

 

[joec]

What a weird article. I thought the interview was good, and the Lucid CEO is making the important point that (especially for Lucid cars) the plug type is secondary, but it's the voltage level that is critical. But then the article author goes on with the non-sequitor that "By adopting the NACS, carmakers could gain access to Tesla’s expansive Supercharger Network without any adapters. This immediately gives owners of compatible electric cars the capability to travel long distances all over the United States."

But the whole point that the Lucid CEO is making is that the existing supercharger network is only slightly better than useless for long trips for Lucids, because the low voltage means that it is capped out at 50 kW charging.

As for the previous comment about whether we should lock this thread, FWIW I know this must be tiresome to folks that have been following this closely, but for people like me who only pop in every now and then, this thread has been really helpful and informative to me - I didn't even know about the voltage issue until reading through this thread and linked sites. And while the political debates get annoying, there is frequently good new info like this interview with the Lucid CEO.

And herein lies the problem for Lucid. And most EV manufacturers, frankly. Press coverage on almost every topic is severely lacking in basic knowledge, but with EVs it's even worse.

Instead of taking the opportunity to educate readers about issues like voltage, the author runs directly to the same rather uninformed conclusion everyone else is making. "More charging stations will be better for everyone!" Completely ignoring the exact point Peter was trying to make and thus missing a golden opportunity to write something actually worth reading.

Everyone wants sound bytes when reality is so much more nuanced.

This is going to be an uphill climb for Lucid. It's difficult enough to get the average person to understand why you have a superior product when the explanation for that involves physics. Reporters are not going to be of much help.

 

[Tâm]

I didn't read anything saying that Lucid would hold onto CCS. I read that they'll do what is needed to have ubiquitous, reliable 1000V charging.

Correct.

It's a polite "No" by wanting to see proof that Tesla stations can actually run full Lucid speed at 1,000V.

It's another way to say that Tesla cannot be trusted in a deal promising 1,000V.

 

[dwfallin]

interesting (long) thread! quick tech question - will the benefits of the 'nacs' connector remain the same when moving to the v4/1000v superchargers and usable (longer) cables? (ie, will it still be small, lightweight, easily flexible)

 

[DeaneG]

interesting (long) thread! quick tech question - will the benefits of the 'nacs' connector remain the same when moving to the v4/1000v superchargers and usable (longer) cables? (ie, will it still be small, lightweight, easily flexible)

It appears so. There are V4 dispensers installed in Europe. Cable is longer than V2/V3 and appears about as thin.

 

[Shuasha]

I imagine they would be similar to CCS1 high voltage cables. When you increase voltage, you need fewer amps to reach the same wattage. Higher amps = thicker cables. That's one of the benefits of the high voltage battery packs, you can use thinner wires.

 

[Bill55]

I imagine they would be similar to CCS1 high voltage cables. When you increase voltage, you need fewer amps to reach the same wattage. Higher amps = thicker cables. That's one of the benefits of the high voltage battery packs, you can use thinner wires.

The energy storage market has moved from 1000V DC systems to 1500V DC for the same reason.

 

[kerplunk]

I don't know much about the greater implications of this on the ev market, but I just know on my recent road trip nearly every rest stop I went by had a Tesla charging station while if the Lucid needed to charge I'd have to take exits and drive a bit locally.

Between poor reliability and placement of the EA chargers its easy to why Tesla is winning the charging wars.

 

[Bill55]

I don't know much about the greater implications of this on the ev market, but I just know on my recent road trip nearly every rest stop I went by had a Tesla charging station while if the Lucid needed to charge I'd have to take exits and drive a bit locally.

Between poor reliability and placement of the EA chargers its easy to why Tesla is winning the charging wars.

Don't worry. Soon we will be able to complain about waiting in line and then paying $0.48kWh to charge at a Tesla charger. Or maybe Tesla will have a special price of $1.00kWh for Lucid drivers only.

 

[Shuasha]

I would love to have a CCS1 to NACS adapter with its own serial number/certificate/whatever is needed to authenticate to the system for back end billing so it can be swapped from car to car. It would need to be around 5 feet long to extend cables as needed. Is there a reason that can't happen?

 

[DeaneG]

Do you mean NACS to CCS? Tesla would need to allow this, and they haven't. There are CCS to NACS adapters available from a variety of sources.

 

[Bill55]

I would love to have a CCS1 to NACS adapter with its own serial number/certificate/whatever is needed to authenticate to the system for back end billing so it can be swapped from car to car. It would need to be around 5 feet long to extend cables as needed. Is there a reason that can't happen?

For level 3 to work the vehicle and the charger have to communicate. The physical adaptor can be done, but it has to be supported in software.

 

[Bunnylebowski]

There is no reason for Lucid to incorporate NACS port in their vehicles, as existing V3 superchargers cables will only reach if you park sideways and the voltage architecture is too slow. I know this as I’m one of the few Lucid owners to use the Tesla V3 MagicDock and it’s a pointless experience as even though the handshake and reliability of it is great, it’s rendered nearly useless because of the cable length and slow charging. Peter is correct that the V4 standard is what matters the most, but what this Ford/GM/Rivian decision is doing is spending $$$ and putting pressure on other automakers to spend $$$ to support an inferior standard. This also is a pointless conversation for Porsche Taycan, Ioniq/EV6 owners as well with their fasting charger architecture which has to down-convert to slower speeds to use Tesla NACS via adapter. The switch to current V3 superchargers means LONGER waits to charge and more stress on the chargers, as the charging will be slower for many many drivers than EA/EVGo/Chargepoint. The reliability is the only benefit I see for NACS but that may turn out to not true once you put a bunch of non-Tesla EVs on their network. The point should be to get the cars in and out of the charging stalls as quickly as possible. This switch to NACS will not achieve that.

To summarize, this conversation has no meaning for Lucid until 1000v plus NACS stations become a reality. I think that’s a much more informed rational view than @blueice89 demanding Lucid owners sell their vehicles in protest if Lucid doesn’t immediately commit to putting NACS ports on their cars.

 

[stratus]

There is no reason for Lucid to incorporate NACS port in their vehicles, as existing V3 superchargers cables will only reach if you park sideways and the voltage architecture is too slow. I know this as I’m one of the few Lucid owners to use the Tesla V3 MagicDock and it’s a pointless experience as even though the handshake and reliability of it is great, it’s rendered nearly useless because of the cable length and slow charging. Peter is correct that the V4 standard is what matters the most, but what this Ford/GM/Rivian decision is doing is spending $$$ and putting pressure on other automakers to spend $$$ to support an inferior standard. This also is a pointless conversation for Porsche Taycan, Ioniq/EV6 owners as well with their fasting charger architecture which has to down-convert to slower speeds to use Tesla NACS via adapter. The switch to current V3 superchargers means LONGER waits to charge and more stress on the chargers, as the charging will be slower for many many drivers than EA/EVGo/Chargepoint. The reliability is the only benefit I see for NACS but that may turn out to not true once you put a bunch of non-Tesla EVs on their network. The point should be to get the cars in and out of the charging stalls as quickly as possible. This switch to NACS will not achieve that.

To summarize, this conversation has no meaning for Lucid until 1000v plus NACS stations become a reality. I think that’s a much more informed rational view than @blueice89 demanding Lucid owners sell their vehicles in protest if Lucid doesn’t immediately commit to putting NACS ports on their cars.

I worry ( perhaps irrationally) that from a marketing perspective, this whole thing may hurt Lucid. On the other hand, if this forces other EV charging manufacturers to up their game, it will be a net win. I speak to far too many people who are hesitant to embrace any EV besides Tesla because of charging anxiety. Out here where I live, this is a real issue , as DCFC can be spaced very far apart. If one is down it can be a problem. Hasn’t happened to me, but I have a couple friends who have been in precarious and or frustrating situations . Love the car and want to see it and the company succeed.