NACS (Tesla adapter) versus CCS Megathread

[stratus]

Especially when you consider Tesla's motivation here. Once they get every manufacturer to switch to their plug, they won. There's no good reason for them to sweat the finer details of getting all those other cars to charge reliably on their chargers. There will effectively be no competition at that point, and thus all those cars will have nowhere else to go. Even if other charging networks all adopt NACS and survive, Tesla still got away with not having to change their own plugs on their own cars. Saving them billions in retrofitting their cars and chargers.

The whole thing is pretty amazing, Tesla is forecast to reap billions in supercharger revenue from these deals. I guess Musk strikes again, but perhaps (?) something positive will come of this.

 

[MorganB]

CSS is the standard in Europe by law and Teslas from 2019 onward in Europe have CSS connectors. The supercharger network is CSS based in Europe. So CSS isn't going anywhere unless Europe adapts Tesla NACS but then all Teslas would have the wrong connector.

 

[Tâm]

CSS is the standard in Europe by law and Teslas from 2019 onward in Europe have CSS connectors. The supercharger network is CSS based in Europe. So CSS isn't going anywhere unless Europe adapts Tesla NACS but then all Teslas would have the wrong connector.

No doubt.

In some locations, people and companies do not have a choice. The central government would make a decision for them.

However, the capitalist system is still alive in the US and money talks.

Companies and people tend not to spend their money for a bad deal.

Rivn is up 5.51% today as the market learned about the announcement.

 

[MorganB]

However, the capitalist system is still alive in the US and money talks.

It's not dead in Europe if that is what you are implying.

 

[austinlucid]

In some locations, people and companies do not have a choice. The central government would make a decision for them.

However, the capitalist system is still alive in the US and money talks.

Let's not forget that the "capitalist system" in the US, at least for EV companies, also includes the government giving billions of dollars to companies in the form of tax credits and, especially relevant to this discussion, the $7.5 billion in federal funds for charging networks.

But I do agree, with GM, Ford, Tesla and now Rivian adopting the Tesla standard, I think enough dominoes have already fallen to make that the standard.

 

[Rogue]

Screaming and kicking against the EU doesn't end well for a company.

Ask Apple how that is going with their lightning adaptors followed by the software limited, Apple only USB-C charging cables. Every computer and phone in the past 1-2 years now uses a USB-C to charge.

The transition is not seamless or without issue. Not all USB-C ports will handle the ampage necessary to properly charge laptops. Not all chargers have enough juice, or the right kind of juice to be semi-precise, to charge any given laptop. I hope and expect standardization on this front as well.

As others have stated, most of you are barking up the wrong tree. Would it be nice for the hardware to be standardized (referring to connectors, not stations)? Sure. However, the connectors are just messengers. The communication protocols are the heart of the issue. You can't charge on a Tesla charging station (up until recently) because Tesla software said no even with an adaptor (ignoring voltage compatibility issues).

This is a Tower of Babel issue: https://www.google.com/search?q=tow...AAQHIARHaAQQIARgI&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-serp

The global communication protocol CCS is still in active development. Turmoil in the standard before settling is the cause of so many of the issues. Older cars need It as or software upgrades, or charging stations must keep track of each iteration of the standard before sun setting it to support cars not upgraded. With there being several companies, none of them are communicating the simplest of integration details to move in lockstep. Been there done that in the contracting world. Companies will spend longer arguing fault then resolving an issue that could take all of a day to resolve, or less.

 

[xponents]

Screaming and kicking against the EU doesn't end well for a company.

Ask Apple how that is going with their lightning adaptors followed by the software limited, Apple only USB-C charging cables. Every computer and phone in the past 1-2 years now uses a USB-C to charge.

The transition is not seamless or without issue. Not all USB-C ports will handle the ampage necessary to properly charge laptops. Not all chargers have enough juice, or the right kind of juice to be semi-precise, to charge any given laptop. I hope and expect standardization on this front as well.

As others have stated, most of you are barking up the wrong tree. Would it be nice for the hardware to be standardized (referring to connectors, not stations)? Sure. However, the connectors are just messengers. The communication protocols are the heart of the issue. You can't charge on a Tesla charging station (up until recently) because Tesla software said no even with an adaptor (ignoring voltage compatibility issues).

This is a Tower of Babel issue: https://www.google.com/search?q=tower+of+babel&client=ms-android-verizon-us-rvc3&sxsrf=APwXEdd_zVoAbLzPeYHbAMkq5aC76Pb6DA:1687301999589&ei=by-SZKKlI42uqtsPtp2RwAM&oq=tower+of+Babel&gs_lcp=ChNtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1zZXJwEAEYADIICAAQgAQQsQMyCAgAEIoFEJECMggIABCKBRCRAjIFCAAQgAQyCAgAEIoFEJECMgUIABCABDIFCAAQgAQyBQgAEIAEOgoIABBHENYEELADOgoIABCKBRCwAxBDOg8ILhCKBRDIAxCwAxBDGAE6FQguEIoFEMcBEK8BEMgDELADEEMYAToHCAAQigUQQzoHCC4QigUQQzoHCCMQigUQJzoKCAAQgAQQsQMQCjoKCAAQgAQQFBCHAjoHCAAQgAQQCkoECEEYAFClBljJFmDxHGgBcAF4AIABcYgB2QSSAQMyLjSYAQCgAQHAAQHIARHaAQQIARgI&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-serp

..Even the iphone is going to USB-C soon!
And also, it seems that NACS can be that standard, akin to the type c port. Same protocols, different connectors. In fact, the similarities are almost uncanny.(smaller, more compact, etc)

 

[thecodingart]

Well this is big:

“Vehicles built with the CCS charge ports will get a free NACS adapter, with additional adapters available for purchase in our Gear Shop.” — Rivian

https://twitter.com/x/status/1671215722842796032

 

[Rob Stark]

You're assuming the Tesla network will be reliable for non-Tesla cars. That's far from a given.

Tesla Supercharger Network is reliable in Europe for non Tesla cars.

In Germany, 69 of 153 Supercharger Stations are open to non-Teslas.

 

[Rob Stark]

Federal Funds can't save CCS forever.

If Congress doesn't pull CCS funding, it will be an example of stupid government spending. People will point and laugh for decades. Much worse than Solyndra.

Trying to force an inferior German standard on the American public when there was a Superior American standard.

 

[MorganB]

Well this is big:

“Vehicles built with the CCS charge ports will get a free NACS adapter, with additional adapters available for purchase in our Gear Shop.” — Rivian

https://twitter.com/x/status/1671215722842796032

Interesting. I wonder if the adapter will support full speed charging.

 

[xponents]

Interesting. I wonder if the adapter will support full speed charging.

Same protocols, so if it is designed well there should be no problem!

 

[SFSOUNDGUY]

I don't care about the connector either will work. I only care about the handshake and a successful charging session that fits my schedule (We can all carry adaptors depending on your car) Sure older EVs will just need to stay in their lane but given the owners already know how to manage their own cars its not really an issue. This move to Tesla forced that hand and therefore is a win. I bet Tesla will spin off "Tesla Electric" or "Tesla EA" ;-) as its own independent company and become the main OS network all N. America for chargers to used or companies to licenses.

 

[Tâm]

Interesting. I wonder if the adapter will support full speed charging.

Yes for Rivian because its battery is 400V.

Current 400V Superchargers do Not provide full speed for those that require 800V like Lucid and Hyundai. 800V cars are derated down to 50kW to make it work without tripping off and shutting down the 400V Superchargers.

Kyle from YouTube says they could be retrofitted to 800V as needed.

V4 Superchargers come with 1,000V so all should get full speed at that time.

 

[Tâm]

It's not dead in Europe if that is what you are implying.

Like China, Europe make a decision on single EV plug for consumers. China and Europe consumers cannot vote with their money to choose which formats.

It's chosen by politics and not money.

In that narrow sense, the capitalists for freedom to choose an EV plug format is both dead in China and Europe.

 

[austinlucid]

Federal Funds can't save CCS forever.

If Congress doesn't pull CCS funding, it will be an example of stupid government spending. People will point and laugh for decades. Much worse than Solyndra.

Trying to force an inferior German standard on the American public when there was a Superior American standard.

This is backwards revisionist history, but it makes me realize how brilliant Tesla was with their marketing/naming strategy. Just rewind to October of last year and there was no "North American Charging Standard". There was just Tesla's private, closed, proprietary technology, while pretty much everyone else used CCS. In November of last year (barely 7 months ago) Tesla opened up their specs and renamed their previously closed, proprietary tech as the "North America Charging Standard", which received a lot of guffaws at the time because their "standard" was only used by them. And it was pretty much for exactly this purpose - they saw a mega s*ton of government money flowing into electric car charging infrastructure, and this would help insure that they could grab a piece of it. The final rule (note this was by executive order, not a part of the law, so it could be updated in the future) that required CCS to get a piece of those public funds came out in Feb of this year, and given how long government rule making takes it's obvious that was all long in process before NACS even existed.

But, in any case, Tesla was the only company who for years saw that building out an extensive charging network would be critical to their success and adoption, so I don't begrudge them for now capitalizing on that success and wanting to open it up and become the standard.

 

[DeaneG]

CSS is the standard in Europe by law and Teslas from 2019 onward in Europe have CSS connectors. The supercharger network is CSS based in Europe. So CSS isn't going anywhere unless Europe adapts Tesla NACS but then all Teslas would have the wrong connector.

Tesla's NACS connector isn't appropriate for the EU because it can't support 3-phase AC charging, which is widely used there for L2 charging.

 

[Rob Stark]

This is backwards revisionist history, but it makes me realize how brilliant Tesla was with their marketing/naming strategy. Just rewind to October of last year and there was no "North American Charging Standard". There was just Tesla's private, closed, proprietary technology, while pretty much everyone else used CCS. In November of last year (barely 7 months ago) Tesla opened up their specs and renamed their previously closed, proprietary tech as the "North America Charging Standard", which received a lot of guffaws at the time because their "standard" was only used by them. And it was pretty much for exactly this purpose - they saw a mega s*ton of government money flowing into electric car charging infrastructure, and this would help insure that they could grab a piece of it. The final rule (note this was by executive order, not a part of the law, so it could be updated in the future) that required CCS to get a piece of those public funds came out in Feb of this year, and given how long government rule making takes it's obvious that was all long in process before NACS even existed.

But, in any case, Tesla was the only company who for years saw that building out an extensive charging network would be critical to their success and adoption, so I don't begrudge them for now capitalizing on that success and wanting to open it up and become the standard.

Tesla proposed to all OEMs they use the Tesla plug and Supercharger Network. For many years. Before they rebranded as NACS. Not revisionist history.

Rumor has it that the legacy OEMs thought the price was too expensive.

Now rumor is Tesla will sell the port to others at cost and charge other brand drivers the same.

Tesla might be taking a back door bite out of billing fees but not sure.

Didn't know CCS funding requirement was an administration rule not Congressional law.

 

[austinlucid]

Was too late to edit my previous comment, but the final rule from the Federal Highway Administration that requires CCS as the standard (https://www.federalregister.gov/doc...cle-infrastructure-standards-and-requirements) says this about the Tesla vs CCS issue:

FHWA Response: Commenters overwhelmingly supported the CCS connector standard and verified that the industry is moving to adopt CCS as a market standard; therefore, FHWA requires CCS Type 1 connectors for each DCFC port through this final rule. Although a few commenters preferred Tesla connectors, most of the Tesla products are proprietary and do not address the needs of the majority of EV makes and models available in the domestic market. However, on November 11, 2022, Tesla announced its “North American Charging Standard” (NACS), which makes its existing and previously proprietary Electric Vehicle charging port and connector available for broad and open public use, including to network operators and vehicle manufacturers. In the announcement, Tesla noted that charging providers were planning to offer NACS charging ports at public charging infrastructure. This rulemaking allows permanently attached non-proprietary connectors (such as NACS) to be provided on each charging port so long as each DCFC charging port has at least one permanently attached CCS Type 1 connector and is capable of charging a CCS-compliant vehicle.

 

[Bobby]

For those that would like to read a summary of NACS versus CCS without going through this entire thread, please visit the FAQ section at www.lucidupdates.com.