Jaguar Rebrand

[borski]

Maybe he was talking about his confidence in continuing Jaguar's legacy... of going bankrupt and selling nothing?

They've sold so many Waymos

I really do like the I-Pace, and, to be fair:

That's not a bad record, at least from a design perspective.

 

[Pragmatic]

Unlike Rolls Royce Jaguar has not gone bankrupt.

 

[Bobby]

They've sold so many Waymos

I really do like the I-Pace, and, to be fair:
View attachment 24980
That's not a bad record, at least from a design perspective.

Loved my I Pace.

 

[xponents]

Loved my I Pace.

Wait, past tense? To my knowledge, don't you still have it?

 

[Bobby]

Wait, past tense? To my knowledge, don't you still have it?

Nope, we have moved on.

 

[kort6776]

Consumer Reports Annual Car Edition only takes into account the reports it gets back from the questionnaires it sends to the owners of each brand in determining the ratings. It is Jaguar owners themselves who are dissatisfied with the reliability of their cars irrespective of how gorgeous or how well the car performs. 3rd from the bottom speaks for itself. Of course there are going to be people who have had less than the average problems and maybe the F car is better than the other cars that Jaguar sells, but unless the owners give a better review next year, I would be hesitant to buy a Jaguar unless you don't mind taking frequent trips to the dealership.

one huge issue with Jag and the Ipace and their dealerships is that many dealerships do not have techs who are qualified to work on the car.

 

[kort6776]

I am aware Jaguar has never been a mass market car in the past.

However, it does not hold that post-rebrand and with new vehicles they cannot or will not be a mass market car. Moreover, it is clear that they are attempting to break away from whatever their historical reputation was, with a complete rebrand and a completely new line of vehicles.

Literally nobody can yet predict how that will go, and history is not a good predictor of this uncertain future either, as it is not (in effect, not literally) the same company as it was.

VW wasn't mass-market...until they were.
Tesla wasn't mass-market... until they were.
Cadillac wasn't mass-market... until they were.

I'd also like to point out that Jaguar is not that far away from the mass-market brands, and that Tesla and Cadillac has moved to "mass market" since this pyramid was created:
View attachment 24973

your remark that VW was never mass market is absurd.
I do not understand your passion regarding this but this is getting way too tedious for me

 

[borski]

your remark that VW was never mass market is absurd.
I do not understand your passion regarding this but this is getting way too tedious for me

My only goal is that you shouldn’t judge a book by its cover, especially when that cover is miles away and you can only see pictures of it, and even moreso when the book has not been written yet. That’s all.

 

[hmp10]

your remark that VW was never mass market is absurd.
I do not understand your passion regarding this but this is getting way too tedious for me

@borski did not say that VW was never mass market. He said that "it wasn't mass market . . . until they were."

And he's correct. It was 14 years after Hitler commissioned Ferdinand Porsche to build a "people's car" before the first VW made it into civilian hands. The first nine years of production saw cars delivered on to Nazi military and government officials and then to Allied postwar personnel. Even after the first civilians got cars in 1947, less than 10,000 VWs were sold worldwide in 1948 -- a year in which the U.S. alone saw over 2.6 million cars sold. It was the early 1950's before the car really took off with the public.

 

[kort6776]

@borski did not say that VW was never mass market. He said that "it wasn't mass market . . . until they were."

And he's correct. It was 14 years after Hitler commissioned Ferdinand Porsche to build a "people's car" before the first VW made it into civilian hands. T

yeah they were encumbered with their invasions of most of europe which decimated the industries and economies of germany and the countries that were invaded but the germans.

 

[hmp10]

yeah they were encumbered with their invasions of most of europe which decimated the industries and economies of germany and the countries that were invaded but the germans.

Throughout the 1930's and well into WWII Germany was doing a remarkable job of maintaining consumer goods production alongside military production -- known as "guns and butter" politics. Hitler knew that one of his few political vulnerabilities was trading butter for guns, and Albert Speer was able to pull off near miracles in ramping up military production as late as 1943 without unduly impinging on consumer production.

 

[kort6776]

Throughout the 1930's and well into WWII Germany was doing a remarkable job of maintaining consumer goods production alongside military production -- known as "guns and butter" politics. Hitler knew that one of his few political vulnerabilities was trading butter for guns, and Albert Speer was able to pull off near miracles in ramping up military production as late as 1943 without unduly impinging on consumer production.

most of us are aware of how things went for the germans, what they were able to accomplish prior to 1940 is really irrelevant. I suppose the you and many others are unaware of the scam that the german government pulled on the population regarding volkswagons, part of their employment contracts was that they had to pay a deposit on a volkswagon which as we know were never delivered.

 

[hmp10]

most of us are aware of how things went for the germans, what they were able to accomplish prior to 1940 is really irrelevant. I suppose the you and many others are unaware of the scam that the german government pulled on the population regarding volkswagons, part of their employment contracts was that they had to pay a deposit on a volkswagon which as we know were never delivered.

I am, in fact, well aware of that. German was one of my two undergraduate majors, and I studied 19th- and 20th-century German history in grad school at the Free University of Berlin under T. I. Nipperdey.

VW was developing the Volkswagen (not volkswagons) beginning in 1933 based on an earlier design going back to 1925. The factory to build the car was in place by 1938. So what happened before 1940 was, in fact, relevant to why no Volkswagen made it into consumer hands before the war started. And, yes, I'm aware of the deposits legions of Germans made and lost. Whether it was a scam depends on your perspective. The government clearly wanted to put the population on wheels to make use of the Autobahnen that had been built to spur German economic growth (and, much like our own interstate system under Eisenhower, to facilitate military movement). However, the outbreak of war forestalled that plan. Forcing people into contracts of adhesion to accomplish a policy goal may be despicable, but it is somewhat different from a scam, which comes with a preceding intent to deceive.

 

[kort6776]

I am, in fact, well aware of that. German was one of my two undergraduate majors, and I studied 19th- and 20th-century German history in grad school at the Free University of Berlin under T. I. Nipperdey.

VW was developing the Volkswagen (not volkswagons) beginning in 1933 based on an earlier design going back to 1925. The factory to build the car was in place by 1938. So what happened before 1940 was, in fact, relevant to why no Volkswagen made it into consumer hands before the war started. And, yes, I'm aware of the deposits legions of Germans made and lost. Whether it was a scam depends on your perspective. The government clearly wanted to put the population on wheels to make use of the Autobahnen that had been built to spur German economic growth (and, much like our own interstate system under Eisenhower, to facilitate military movement). However, the outbreak of war forestalled that plan. Forcing people into contracts of adhesion to accomplish a policy goal may be despicable, but it is somewhat different from a scam, which comes with a preceding intent to deceive.

the government at that time was well into the beginning stages of the wars to follow and while the government did not plan on the bad outcome for them, the fact that the workers were coerced in putting their earnings into a deposit on a car sure made it scammy.

 

[hmp10]

the government at that time was well into the beginning stages of the wars to follow and while the government did not plan on the bad outcome for them, the fact that the workers were coerced in putting their earnings into a deposit on a car sure made it scammy.

What the government was well into "at that time" (if you mean 1937-38 when the VW factory was being built) was preparing to use its military to occupy eastern territories Hitler still expected to take without resistance from the West. In fact, one of the rationales for the new Autobahnen and the plan to put the German population into their own cars was to make Germans more mobile and thus easier to induce into moving eastward into the Lebensraum he was opening up to them. He thought he had neutralized Russia with the secret protocols in the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact for long enough to gain an irreversible foothold for a later invasion of Russia. He was actually shocked and infuriated when the West belatedly screwed up its resolve to declare war over the invasion of Poland.

Hitler's plan was to use military might to cower the foreign powers to stand down as he moved into eastern territories and then quickly resettle Germans into those regions. The military would be a temporary occupation force to quell the local populations and then remove those who resisted being absorbed, with German settlers being the real long-term occupation force. Neither he nor his military advisors were planning to have a two-front war going on while he did this. Everybody has heard about the famed German Blitzkrieg of WWII. What they forget is that it was preceded by an 8-month long Sitzkrieg in which both sides fumbled around trying to figure out what to do next after they had issued their war declarations. Hostilities were finally jump started in 1940 when Hitler invaded Norway.

The Cambridge Dictionary defines a scam as involving "tricking people". The Legal Dictionary defines a scam as something requiring "intentional use of deceit". Using force to compel someone to do something is not tricking them or deceiving them.

 

[hmp10]

If you want to continue this discussion, I suggest we take it to a DM, as it really has no place here.

It got started when you pronounced @borski "absurd" based on your mischaracterization of a post he made that mentioned VW. I saw that another of your posts yesterday was a blunt insult to another poster, and that post got removed, probably by a moderator.

You appear to be angry about something but, if German history really occupies your interest, I can hang in as long as you can . . . but not on the open forum.

 

[RM-S8]

I'd wager money on that prediction being correct.

Jokes about Jaguar? Sure.
Politics? Nope.
Things unrelated directly to Jaguar? Not on this thread.

Will i be able to compare Jaguar to the latest, let's say, Matrix fiasco, Snow White, Bud light ?
I think we can see similarity.
Just testing the water

 

[borski]

Will i be able to compare Jaguar to the latest, let's say, Matrix fiasco, Snow White, Bud light ?
I think we can see similarity.
Just testing the water

None of those have anything to do with Jaguar. I think we’ve been very clear. This thread is about Jaguar, and not about any other political issues you or anyone else thinks may or may not be related.

You’re free to discuss those or anything else you’d like in other forums or via other mediums, but this thread about Jaguar is going to remain about Jaguar. (And Nazis and Germany, apparently. )

But yes, please, let’s keep it to Jaguar. Any further unrelated posts will be deleted, whether about German war history or anything else.

 

[kort6776]

None of those have anything to do with Jaguar. I think we’ve been very clear. This thread is about Jaguar, and not about any other political issues you or anyone else thinks may or may not be related.

You’re free to discuss those or anything else you’d like in other forums or via other mediums, but this thread about Jaguar is going to remain about Jaguar. (And Nazis and Germany, apparently. )

But yes, please, let’s keep it to Jaguar. Any further unrelated posts will be deleted, whether about German war history or anything else.

I think that the jaguar fiasco is a first cousin to the bud light brohaha.
apparently you didn't see the news conference where the new head of jaguar marketing made a response to the negative reaction to his new marketing campaign?
this ties directly to the future of the jaguar brand.
potential customers rarely like being lectured on social issues.

isn't this sub forum the section of the site for topics that are OFF topic elsewhere in your Lucid forums?

 

[RM-S8]

I think that the jaguar fiasco is a first cousin to the bud light brohaha.
apparently you didn't see the news conference where the new head of jaguar marketing made a response to the negative reaction to his new marketing campaign?
this ties directly to the future of the jaguar brand.
potential customers rarely like being lectured on social issues.

isn't this sub forum the section of the site for topics that are OFF topic elsewhere in your Lucid forums?

That's my point.
I carefully chose OFF TOPIC sub forum. I was shocked when mods started to delete my posts (which I have quite few screenshots of) and changed my title thread).
I think OFF TOPIC should be changed to ALMOST OFF TOPIC, KINDA OFF TOPIC, or MODS APPROVED OFF TOPIC.
Apparently, connecting Jaguar to DEI fiasco is a no-no.