Is cutting prices a losing strategy?

[scal_air]

This was from my solar provider so take it with a grain of salt, but when they were applying for permits, there was a list of pre-approved equipment they could install in order to obtain said permit. With the passing of NEM 3.0, it's very apparent to me that SoCal Edison is doing everything in its power to prevent battery backups and force consumers to continue to draw from the grid, while gleefully taking all the excess solar generated and paid out at steep discount.

SCE took 3 months to approve my solar agreement. I understand that utilities complain of excess power during solar generation hours, hence the change in Net Metering agreement. NEM 3.0 all but guarantees that you need a backup battery to make solar worthwhile. I thought that was the utilities' motive - to shift power usage away from 4p-9p, which is easy to do if you have a battery backup. If they are inhibiting batteries, they are only causing more strain on the grid during peak hours, forcing the need for expensive upgrades. Short sighted!

 

[hydbob]

SCE took 3 months to approve my solar agreement. I understand that utilities complain of excess power during solar generation hours, hence the change in Net Metering agreement. NEM 3.0 all but guarantees that you need a backup battery to make solar worthwhile. I thought that was the utilities' motive - to shift power usage away from 4p-9p, which is easy to do if you have a battery backup. If they are inhibiting batteries, they are only causing more strain on the grid during peak hours, forcing the need for expensive upgrades. Short sighted!

Short term profitability>long term sustainability

 

[Haggy]

Hydbob, I come from a place of ignorance over the the local and state regulations regarding V2H. I would like to understand better. It seems to me that V2H functions the same as a battery backup (especially with a pre-existing solar system) whereas V2G would be more complicated. Thanks

V2H would not be complicated in some cases but would be in others. In my case, I already have a Powerwall and gateway. It's the gateway that prevents electricity from flowing to the grid in a power outage and would keep track of power from different sources. I'd expect that if it also had data from a current transformer that monitored what was coming from the car, it would be easy enough. But there's no mechanism for integration.

In a more straightforward example where there's no solar or battery, I expect that there would need to be current transformers for the mains at the meter end to keep anything from flowing to the grid.

For someone with solar panels and a Lucid with V2H, the system would already shut down the solar in case of an outage to keep power from flowing to the grid. Adding V2H could allow the house to get power, as long as the grid is cut off.

And if the amount of power being used by the home is less than the amount being generated by solar, and the car battery is not fully charged, and the charge rate of the car is more than sufficient to handle what's coming from solar beyond what the house is using, then solar could power the house and charge the Lucid at those times rather than the power getting cut off when there's a grid outage.

All of the scenarios would need to be handled by the system but the primary concern of the power company would be that no power flow to the grid during an outage or when not allowed based on a customer service agreement. If there is power sent to the grid, it would be a question of how the customer gets paid for it. If it's at the wholesale rate, it would be something that customers would want to prevent. If it's something like Tesla's virtual power plant, then utilities might actually pay EV owners in times of high usage that the grid might not be able to otherwise handle. But then the equipment would have to be set to allow it on those days and hours.

 

[Steveinarizona]

We've brought this up multiple times over the past 2 years, it's just cutting that red tape to get V2H approved is tough and Lucid is right in not stressing or marketing that point until they can get approval from the local utilities.

I don't understand this. My Genesis GV60P has working V2H as do its mainstream mates Kia EV6 and Ioniq 5. So unless Hyundai Corp is choosing to ignore local rules and regulations, they are not impediments to activating V2H.

 

[Adnillien]

I don't understand this. My Genesis GV60P has working V2H as do its mainstream mates Kia EV6 and Ioniq 5. So unless Hyundai Corp is choosing to ignore local rules and regulations, they are not impediments to activating V2H.

I believe it has Vehicle to Load, not Vehicle to Home. There is a big difference in the requirements. I asked APS about V2H at the NDEW and was told they are working on a demo with the engineers to determine the requirements. V2H is several years away.

 

[Haggy]

I don't understand this. My Genesis GV60P has working V2H as do its mainstream mates Kia EV6 and Ioniq 5. So unless Hyundai Corp is choosing to ignore local rules and regulations, they are not impediments to activating V2H.

If it supports vehicle to load, all you need is a cable to make it V2H. You might even be able to buy one. It's illegal, but it could power your home to some extent. The only problem is that if you use it in a blackout, it could also send power to the grid, which is also illegal.

 

[Steveinarizona]

I believe it has Vehicle to Load, not Vehicle to Home. There is a big difference in the requirements. I asked APS about V2H at the NDEW and was told they are working on a demo with the engineers to determine the requirements. V2H is several years away.

Yes, I misread the post. But V2L is a good inexpensive compromise. I have a couple of 50 foot heavy duty extension cords and figure I can keep the fridges going as well as some other features for a long time. If we need to cook something, we can unplug the fridges for a half hour and plug in the stove and microwave. A half hour unplugged won't hurt the food.

Probably 80% of the functionality for a tiny cost.

 

[Bobby]

If it supports vehicle to load, all you need is a cable to make it V2H. You might even be able to buy one. It's illegal, but it could power your home to some extent. The only problem is that if you use it in a blackout, it could also send power to the grid, which is also illegal.

Because it can electrocute a line worker.

 

[xponents]

Because it can electrocute a line worker.

Apologies for being uninformed in this regard, but do solar panels not send excess energy to the grid as well(we have tesla solar panels with no powerwall)? What would be the difference between these two as both are sending energy to the grid?

 

[Bobby]

Apologies for being uninformed in this regard, but do solar panels not send excess energy to the grid as well(we have tesla solar panels with no powerwall)? What would be the difference between these two as both are sending energy to the grid?

Solar panels (more specifically, inverters) have circuitry to detect when there is a blackout and will stop feeding the grid. This is referred to as anti-islanding.

 

[xponents]

Solar panels (more specifically, inverters) have circuitry to detect when there is a blackout and will stop feeding the grid.

Another dumb question, but where does all that excess energy go then? It can't just be... disposed, can it?

 

[Bobby]

Another dumb question, but where does all that excess energy go then? It can't just be... disposed, can it?

Power doesn’t work like that. For example, if you turn off every single electrical item in your house it doesn’t mean that power must be stored somewhere else, it is just not consumed. Solar panels will try to collect and, because voltage increases, they might heat up, but the power doesn’t actually “flow” to anything. Some solar, like my own, can supply power directly to a load during a blackout because they are detached from the grid automatically. Of course, this only works while power is being collected i.e. daylight.

 

[scal_air]

V2H would not be complicated in some cases but would be in others. In my case, I already have a Powerwall and gateway. It's the gateway that prevents electricity from flowing to the grid in a power outage and would keep track of power from different sources. I'd expect that if it also had data from a current transformer that monitored what was coming from the car, it would be easy enough. But there's no mechanism for integration.

In a more straightforward example where there's no solar or battery, I expect that there would need to be current transformers for the mains at the meter end to keep anything from flowing to the grid.

For someone with solar panels and a Lucid with V2H, the system would already shut down the solar in case of an outage to keep power from flowing to the grid. Adding V2H could allow the house to get power, as long as the grid is cut off.

And if the amount of power being used by the home is less than the amount being generated by solar, and the car battery is not fully charged, and the charge rate of the car is more than sufficient to handle what's coming from solar beyond what the house is using, then solar could power the house and charge the Lucid at those times rather than the power getting cut off when there's a grid outage.

All of the scenarios would need to be handled by the system but the primary concern of the power company would be that no power flow to the grid during an outage or when not allowed based on a customer service agreement. If there is power sent to the grid, it would be a question of how the customer gets paid for it. If it's at the wholesale rate, it would be something that customers would want to prevent. If it's something like Tesla's virtual power plant, then utilities might actually pay EV owners in times of high usage that the grid might not be able to otherwise handle. But then the equipment would have to be set to allow it on those days and hours.

Excellent post. Here is the the integration for solar systems...

Enphase Bidirectional EV Charger | Enphase

enphase.com

In reading everyone's posts, I honestly think there is no technological reason we can't have V2H. In the end, I believe Hydbob is right ( you would think he gets tired of hearing that!) and the impediment lies with regulations that give electric utilities control. Apparently their interest is not maintaining a stable power grid and reliable electricity, as much as trying to soak the public for rate increases...

Indiana killed net metering, solar down 67%, utility now seeking 23% rate increase

A recent filing by Citizens Action Coalition of Indiana reveals a 67% decrease in distributed solar installations since Indiana-Michigan Power Company replaced net metering with the “excess distributed generation” program.

pv-magazine-usa.com

It really is us to us to do what we can to protect our interests, locally and federally, against this kind of chicanery! Let your representatives know your support for these issues - if they are not responsive then...

 

[Tâm]

Yes, I misread the post. But V2L is a good inexpensive compromise. I have a couple of 50 foot heavy duty extension cords and figure I can keep the fridges going as well as some other features for a long time. If we need to cook something, we can unplug the fridges for a half hour and plug in the stove and microwave. A half hour unplugged won't hurt the food.

Probably 80% of the functionality for a tiny cost.

By this time next year, if there's still no V2L in Air models, you can get V2L with Gravity SUV with 3 120V outlets.

If you can't wait that long, Hyundai/Kia has V2L for years. The problem is it might be pricey to replace the main battery when the warranty expires:

Ontario man’s EV battery replacement cost $50,000

A man in Stoney Creek, Ont. attempted to replace the battery on his electric vehicle and was shocked to learn that it was going to cost him over $50,000 to replace.

tnc.news

 

[Haggy]

Apologies for being uninformed in this regard, but do solar panels not send excess energy to the grid as well(we have tesla solar panels with no powerwall)? What would be the difference between these two as both are sending energy to the grid?

Others have pretty much explained it, but when there's a home battery, it gets more complicated. I found that even people who worked for the solar installer who fielded calls from customers didn't quite understand it.

If you have a home battery and the power goes out, it can power your home. If the total amount of solar being generated is less than the amount of power that you are using plus the most that the battery can take in when charging, then solar can power your home and charge the battery. If the battery is fully charged and your solar is producing more than you are using, it will turn off while the battery powers the house. There are other combinations, including adding a car with V2H, or charging a car during an outage to take in any extra solar, and sometimes charging the car at a specific amperage would work best. Ideally, a system would know how to balance all these things out.

With a car that's always in the garage at somewhere around 80% charge level, you could do a lot, except drive it. So it's really best to have a battery for the house, with the car handling anything extra.

With a Powerwall, I'd have about enough energy, in theory, to get me through a summer day if I didn't use air conditioning. The Lucid would be able to power my central air conditioning, but those units don't go through my main breaker panel or Powerwall gateway. They have their own lines coming from separate main breakers at the meter. So for practical purposes, the Lucid could help me, in theory, by giving me an extra cushion or getting me through consecutive rainy winter days without power, but not give me back air conditioning. If there's ever a major disaster, I could buy a window air conditioner though.

In real life I've had a few outages and was home for only one of them. So a car wouldn't have helped. Nothing was close to draining the Powerwall but since I use it for power during peak rate periods, I could have an outage at a time when it's low, and a car could help.

But all that is in theory. If you don't have many outages, and an occasional outage lasts a few hours at most, a home battery is best.

 

[Haggy]

By this time next year, if there's still no V2L in Air models, you can get V2L with Gravity SUV with 3 120V outlets.

If you can't wait that long, Hyundai/Kia has V2L for years. The problem is it might be pricey to replace the main battery when the warranty expires:

Ontario man’s EV battery replacement cost $50,000

A man in Stoney Creek, Ont. attempted to replace the battery on his electric vehicle and was shocked to learn that it was going to cost him over $50,000 to replace.

tnc.news

If you have an Air and are waiting for the Gravity to come out, then a home battery would be a better interim solution.

 

[xponents]

Others have pretty much explained it, but when there's a home battery, it gets more complicated. I found that even people who worked for the solar installer who fielded calls from customers didn't quite understand it.

If you have a home battery and the power goes out, it can power your home. If the total amount of solar being generated is less than the amount of power that you are using plus the most that the battery can take in when charging, then solar can power your home and charge the battery. If the battery is fully charged and your solar is producing more than you are using, it will turn off while the battery powers the house. There are other combinations, including adding a car with V2H, or charging a car during an outage to take in any extra solar, and sometimes charging the car at a specific amperage would work best. Ideally, a system would know how to balance all these things out.

With a car that's always in the garage at somewhere around 80% charge level, you could do a lot, except drive it. So it's really best to have a battery for the house, with the car handling anything extra.

With a Powerwall, I'd have about enough energy, in theory, to get me through a summer day if I didn't use air conditioning. The Lucid would be able to power my central air conditioning, but those units don't go through my main breaker panel or Powerwall gateway. They have their own lines coming from separate main breakers at the meter. So for practical purposes, the Lucid could help me, in theory, by giving me an extra cushion or getting me through consecutive rainy winter days without power, but not give me back air conditioning. If there's ever a major disaster, I could buy a window air conditioner though.

In real life I've had a few outages and was home for only one of them. So a car wouldn't have helped. Nothing was close to draining the Powerwall but since I use it for power during peak rate periods, I could have an outage at a time when it's low, and a car could help.

But all that is in theory. If you don't have many outages, and an occasional outage lasts a few hours at most, a home battery is best.

Yeah, I have advocated for a powerwall yet my parents still believe that we are saving money as the "grid pays us back," even though in reality that saved amount is low.

Then again, our energy bills are about 80 a month, so we might break even.

 

[Haggy]

Yeah, I have advocated for a powerwall yet my parents still believe that we are saving money as the "grid pays us back," even though in reality that saved amount is low.

Then again, our energy bills are about 80 a month, so we might break even.

I could have saved money had I gotten the Powerwall when I got solar and would have needed fewer panels. At this point, the theoretical savings is from using battery energy at peak rate periods. But the nonbypassable charges have gotten high enough that my bill will be the same no matter how little or much electricity I use or send to the grid.

 

[scal_air]

Haggy,
For those of us who have solar, a Lucid air, few long power outages, and no battery, wouldn’t it make more sense to hook up the car with V2H during an outage than to buy batteries? Even at 50% SOC, the Lucid has the capacity of over 3 power walls. Seems like a cost savings to me…

 

[scal_air]

By this time next year, if there's still no V2L in Air models, you can get V2L with Gravity SUV with 3 120V outlets.

If you can't wait that long, Hyundai/Kia has V2L for years. The problem is it might be pricey to replace the main battery when the warranty expires:

Ontario man’s EV battery replacement cost $50,000

A man in Stoney Creek, Ont. attempted to replace the battery on his electric vehicle and was shocked to learn that it was going to cost him over $50,000 to replace.

tnc.news

Honesty, in 8 years (Lucid battery warranty), I think the EV battery landscape will have changed. Much like the initial 42”plasma flatscreen that debuted at $15K in 1997, EV batteries will be cheaper with more capacity and faster charging. By 2009, a 58” plasma TV was selling for $1600