Enthusiast Canceling after the Launch event - in Depth Reasons/discrepancies noted

[invalidname]

Nobody said Lucid is perfect. Some people are canceling their orders because Lucid does what all other car manufacturers do: make some features costly to drive you up market to a more expensive trim. Sometimes this means that if a deal-breaker feature is too expensive for you, then you buy a different car, which is 100% OK. And it’s also 100% OK to be willing to shell out the extra $ for higher trim or that feature that matters to you. But I don’t see how any of this is Lucid doing anything egregious.

The "Lucid is perfect" statement was meant to be sarcastically hyperbolic, nobody literally said "LA~LA~LA~" either. It was meant to convey that some owners may think Lucid can do no wrong and that Lucid doesn't have to make any changes, especially changes that can help Lucid.

Obviously it is OK to sit down, shut up, and shop around. But as enthusiasts who want to see Lucid do well, shouldn't we want to provide feedback of what the people think and want?

Some features I can agree would not be available in lower trims such as massaging seats. IMO, massaging seats is considered a luxury that can be done without in the pursuit of a lower cost trim, and that locking features like that within the higher trim is what helps differentiates the trims. I doubt people actually cancelled primarily due to the lack of massaging seats, I feel like people were either hopefully joking or malignity nit-picking.

The premiere feature that is in discussion from OP's initial post are features like Highway Assist (lane-centering). People want features like Highway Assist, but don't want to buy into the promise of Level 3 Autonomy just yet. DDP with its promise for Level 3 Autonomy itself can arguably be worth $10k. The question in mind is Highway Assist worth $10k? Features like Highway Assist (lane-centering) does not have any reason to be locked behind DDP, as it doesn't require the level of hardware of DDP to implement. A comparable solution I have heard, if Lucid does not want to or cannot include Highway Assist with standard DreamDrive, is to offer an intermediate package like Enhanced DreamDrive, which could include necessary hardware upgrades (may exclude LIDAR) and software to allow for features like Highway Assist for half the price or so.

I think this solution is worth hearing out, as it will indubitably increase sales, profits, and interest.

 

[invalidname]

btw tbh I'm getting DDP anyway because I want to support Lucid and I'm looking forward to seeing Level 3 Autonomy down the line

 

[hydbob]

The "Lucid is perfect" statement was meant to be sarcastically hyperbolic, nobody literally said "LA~LA~LA~" either. It was meant to convey that some owners may think Lucid can do no wrong and that Lucid doesn't have to make any changes, especially changes that can help Lucid.

Obviously it is OK to sit down, shut up, and shop around. But as enthusiasts who want to see Lucid do well, shouldn't we want to provide feedback of what the people think and want?

Some features I can agree would not be available in lower trims such as massaging seats. IMO, massaging seats is considered a luxury that can be done without in the pursuit of a lower cost trim, and that locking features like that within the higher trim is what helps differentiates the trims. I doubt people actually cancelled primarily due to the lack of massaging seats, I feel like people were either hopefully joking or malignity nit-picking.

The premiere feature that is in discussion from OP's initial post are features like Highway Assist (lane-centering). People want features like Highway Assist, but don't want to buy into the promise of Level 3 Autonomy just yet. DDP with its promise for Level 3 Autonomy itself can arguably be worth $10k. The question in mind is Highway Assist worth $10k? Features like Highway Assist (lane-centering) does not have any reason to be locked behind DDP, as it doesn't require the level of hardware of DDP to implement. A comparable solution I have heard, if Lucid does not want to or cannot include Highway Assist with standard DreamDrive, is to offer an intermediate package like Enhanced DreamDrive, which could include necessary hardware upgrades (may exclude LIDAR) and software to allow for features like Highway Assist for half the price or so.

I think this solution is worth hearing out, as it will indubitably increase sales, profits, and interest.

Either by design or due to lack of confidence, perhaps a little of both, Lucid doesn't feel that HA can be safely achieved without all the hardware involved. Now there is more confusion because Peter in his video said LIDAR was included in the Touring model as well.

I agree with you this forum is for feedback, but there is feedback and then there is whining for the sake of whining.

 

[Lady_LCID]

LA~LA~LA~, LUCID IS PERFECT, LA~LA~LA~, LUCID DOESN'T NEED FEEDBACK

Ok I can’t help it…I’m now singing in my head “Fa la la la la, la la la la”
Darn you! Lol

 

[invalidname]

Either by design or due to lack of confidence, perhaps a little of both, Lucid doesn't feel that HA can be safely achieved without all the hardware involved. Now there is more confusion because Peter in his video said LIDAR was included in the Touring model as well.

I agree with you this forum is for feedback, but there is feedback and then there is whining for the sake of whining.

That is why the proposed solution from my post is an intermediate package like Enhanced Dream Drive, and would include any necessary additional hardware excluding LIDAR because LIDAR isn't necessary for Level 2 Autonomy (its for Level 3 Autonomy.)

Where did you see Peter say LIDAR was included? I must've missed that. Might you be confusing what Peter said with Engadget's video of Roberto Baldwin saying LIDAR was included in standard DreamDrive?

Would you consider @C28 's initial post as feedback or whining for the sake of whining?

 

[victoryroad]

No doubt that the OP is an enthusiast, but not for Lucid apparently so perhaps he should just move on. If he wants a completely dialed-in car that has evolved over more than 50 years he should buy a Porsche Turbo S or GT3. No sedan comes close to the AGT of AGTP. I have found this forum to be very helpful before and since I confirmed my order in March. Since delivery in Oct., my experience with the car has been very satisfying. I look forward to every opportunity to drive it. As to those with various problems or who do not want a Lucid who post here, I am not sure what they hope to achieve with adverse opinions based not on ownership experience but on impressions that they have received from various sources that may or may not be credible. As my mother said: "If you do not have something constructive to say then say nothing."

 

[digiboxer]

Nobody said Lucid is perfect. Some people are canceling their orders because Lucid does what all other car manufacturers do: make some features costly to drive you up market to a more expensive trim. Sometimes this means that if a deal-breaker feature is too expensive for you, then you buy a different car, which is 100% OK. And it’s also 100% OK to be willing to shell out the extra $ for higher trim or that feature that matters to you. But I don’t see how any of this is Lucid doing anything egregious.

It works both ways: a shopper who doesnt want a glass roof will likely see little value in the Touring vs Pure AWD, now that it's clear the relative 0--60 is only 4/10s

 

[invalidname]

No doubt that the OP is an enthusiast, but not for Lucid apparently so perhaps he should just move on. If he wants a completely dialed-in car that has evolved over more than 50 years he should buy a Porsche Turbo S or GT3. No sedan comes close to the AGT of AGTP. I have found this forum to be very helpful before and since I confirmed my order in March. Since delivery in Oct., my experience with the car has been very satisfying. I look forward to every opportunity to drive it. As to those with various problems or who do not want a Lucid who post here, I am not sure what they hope to achieve with adverse opinions based not on ownership experience but on impressions that they have received from various sources that may or may not be credible. As my mother said: "If you do not have something constructive to say then say nothing."

If there's one thing I do not tolerate, it is bullying.

Perhaps the Lucid Air is or is not the car for OP, but the statements in his initial post are actually genuine and constructive feedback. At this point, I'm not even sure if some people actually read his post. And maybe, even my post at this point.

Again, I'm certain there are people out here who fling dung for the sake of flinging dung. But in this instance, it is not the case.

I'm glad your experiences have been very satisfying. However, I think it is a dangerous attitude to plug our ears and act smug towards any constructive criticism.

 

[Babyrocko1908]

If there's one thing I do not tolerate, it is bullying.

Perhaps the Lucid Air is or is not the car for OP, but the statements in his initial post are actually genuine and constructive feedback. At this point, I'm not even sure if some people actually read his post. And maybe, even my post at this point.

Again, I'm certain there are people out here who fling dung for the sake of flinging dung. But in this instance, it is not the case.

I'm glad your experiences have been very satisfying. However, I think it is a dangerous attitude to plug our ears and act smug towards any constructive criticism.

While I agree with most of this, the OP "went there" on Lucid's reputation do to speak when he brought up the Jeff Curry statement to Barry regarding the Twitter spat they had. Some of the OP's comments went too far in my opinion.

 

[digiboxer]

Either by design or due to lack of confidence, perhaps a little of both, Lucid doesn't feel that HA can be safely achieved without all the hardware involved. Now there is more confusion because Peter in his video said LIDAR was included in the Touring model as well.

I agree with you this forum is for feedback, but there is feedback and then there is whining for the sake of whining.

Bashing Auto OEMs has been a national pass time for as long as I can remember...Lucid isn't exempt: it comes with the territory.

 

[SDHacker]

The "Lucid is perfect" statement was meant to be sarcastically hyperbolic, nobody literally said "LA~LA~LA~" either. It was meant to convey that some owners may think Lucid can do no wrong and that Lucid doesn't have to make any changes, especially changes that can help Lucid.

Obviously it is OK to sit down, shut up, and shop around. But as enthusiasts who want to see Lucid do well, shouldn't we want to provide feedback of what the people think and want?

Some features I can agree would not be available in lower trims such as massaging seats. IMO, massaging seats is considered a luxury that can be done without in the pursuit of a lower cost trim, and that locking features like that within the higher trim is what helps differentiates the trims. I doubt people actually cancelled primarily due to the lack of massaging seats, I feel like people were either hopefully joking or malignity nit-picking.

The premiere feature that is in discussion from OP's initial post are features like Highway Assist (lane-centering). People want features like Highway Assist, but don't want to buy into the promise of Level 3 Autonomy just yet. DDP with its promise for Level 3 Autonomy itself can arguably be worth $10k. The question in mind is Highway Assist worth $10k? Features like Highway Assist (lane-centering) does not have any reason to be locked behind DDP, as it doesn't require the level of hardware of DDP to implement. A comparable solution I have heard, if Lucid does not want to or cannot include Highway Assist with standard DreamDrive, is to offer an intermediate package like Enhanced DreamDrive, which could include necessary hardware upgrades (may exclude LIDAR) and software to allow for features like Highway Assist for half the price or so.

I think this solution is worth hearing out, as it will indubitably increase sales, profits, and interest.

I agree with a lot of what you’ve written. I think it comes down to coding resources at Lucid and the development plan. In coding basic safety ADAS features, the plan would be to use the basic sensor suite included in all cars. In utilizing limited coding resources, the development plan probably was drawn up so all advanced features utilize the full sensor suite. hA as a steppingstone to HP which is a step toward L3 was coded to utilize the full suite. I think the base suite has the capability to run HA as others have done but that would have required a separate team of coders - probably a resource they don’t have.

It doesn’t matter that the P is the value proposition in the Air line, it is still marketed as a luxury car and given the competition, should include HA. Hopefully Lucid dedicates a team to develop HA for the base sensor suite.

 

[digiboxer]

I agree with a lot of what you’ve written. I think it comes down to coding resources at Lucid and the development plan. In coding basic safety ADAS features, the plan would be to use the basic sensor suite included in all cars. In utilizing limited coding resources, the development plan probably was drawn up so all advanced features utilize the full sensor suite. hA as a steppingstone to HP which is a step toward L3 was coded to utilize the full suite. I think the base suite has the capability to run HA as others have done but that would have required a separate team of coders - probably a resource they don’t have.

It doesn’t matter that the P is the value proposition in the Air line, it is still marketed as a luxury car and given the competition, should include HA. Hopefully Lucid dedicates a team to develop HA for the base sensor suite.

Great analysis...

 

[icebergpvb]

Nio ET5:

NIO ET5: Mid-size Smart Electric Sedan | NIO | test

NIO ET5 is a perfect combination of NIO's supercar DNA and Design for AD concept,inspired by the colors of the sky, the ET5 comes with 9 exterior colors, NIO ET5 1,000 km CLTC est.

www.nio.com

620 miles of range, all the level 2 autonomy features, 0-60 <4.3s, $46k

NIO ET5 Deliveries Kick Off In China, Model 3 Rival Starts At $46K

Priced from RMB 328,000 ($46,100) before subsidies, the NIO ET5 is the brand's most affordable model and a direct rival for Tesla's Model 3 in China and Europe.

insideevs.com

These Chinese guys are going to eat everyone alive on price if they don’t come down market fast, imo. Pure needs to cost a bit less given the loss of $7500 tax subsidy, otherwise the used Touring and GT markets are going to pull on demand. I’d be happy with a more stripped down version, model 3-ish.

 

[Mr_rhythm]

Nio ET5:

NIO ET5: Mid-size Smart Electric Sedan | NIO | test

NIO ET5 is a perfect combination of NIO's supercar DNA and Design for AD concept,inspired by the colors of the sky, the ET5 comes with 9 exterior colors, NIO ET5 1,000 km CLTC est.

www.nio.com

620 miles of range, all the level 2 autonomy features, 0-60 <4.3s, $46k

NIO ET5 Deliveries Kick Off In China, Model 3 Rival Starts At $46K

Priced from RMB 328,000 ($46,100) before subsidies, the NIO ET5 is the brand's most affordable model and a direct rival for Tesla's Model 3 in China and Europe.

insideevs.com

These Chinese guys are going to eat everyone alive on price if they don’t come down market fast, imo. Pure needs to cost a bit less given the loss of $7500 tax subsidy, otherwise the used Touring and GT markets are going to pull on demand. I’d be happy with a more stripped down version, model 3-ish.

The Chinese companies are backed by the Chinese govt that will support their growth at any cost. Things will consolidate later, but for now they know they need to scale and quickly and the govt supports that. It’s obviously a little diff here.

 

[icebergpvb]

The Chinese companies are backed by the Chinese govt that will support their growth at any cost. Things will consolidate later, but for now they know they need to scale and quickly and the govt supports that. It’s obviously a little diff here.

Eh, similar arguments made on this forum with the Saudi PIF

 

[hydbob]

Eh, similar arguments made on this forum with the Saudi PIF

That is not even remotely the same.

 

[KySerenity]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't one of the productive points of a public forums to provide an environment for members to engage in discussions, share grievances, and provide feedback?

Sure, there may be the occasional consumer who just want to fling dung for the sake of flinging dung, but there are many actual impassioned potential consumers with valid feedback.

Especially in the setting where the majority of orders/reservations are for the volume models (i.e. Air Pure) AND in the setting of a recent decline of reservations as we approach volume model production, it is especially vital to hear out what those volume reservation holders have to say on what affects their decision.

We aren't gathered here to go "LA~LA~LA~, LUCID IS PERFECT, LA~LA~LA~, LUCID DOESN'T NEED FEEDBACK, THEY'LL JUST RESPOND REACTIVELY TO POOR RESULTS INSTEAD OF PROACTIVELY BASED ON CONSIDERING FEEDBACK, LA~LA~LA~." I'm pretty sure the Lucid team would appreciate valuable feedback, especially in areas where solutions are practical, probable, profitable, and that can be implemented promptly. I'd assume that's one of the reasons why they occassionally read through our forums.

There are multiple different approaches that Lucid could take, but based on their executives mutual comments on the direction Lucid intends to take, it seems they intend move down market towards the volume market while continuing to inspire the adoption of sustainable energy by creating advanced technologies and the most captivating luxury electric vehicles centered around the human experience. The purpose of introducing a Pure trim is as a "value proposition for a luxury automobile that offers incredible performance and incredible range" - Peter Rawlinson on CNBC 11/15/22. It seems Lucid intends their Pure models to be more for the masses (albeit undoubtedly still expensive in the Air) unlike Porsche whose sale model does includes an relatively competitive entry point of $87k for a base Taycan, but specifically designed it to be undesirable without tens of thousands of dollars of options added on for most consumers.

I read a lot of comments about if you can't afford it, don't buy it, which is understandable and financially more responsible. I even read a comment that said if you can't do the $9k-$10k DDP, just hire a $35k/yr minimum professional chaffeur (seriously?) But it isn't a question of whether it can be afforded, but rather whether or not the value is appropriate for certain desireable options relative to the market. Because when you're marketing a volume product in a price category with many competitors, consumers in this market are inevitably much more cost conscious and will compare.

IMHO, the productive solution isn't to tell the masses to cancel their reservations and get something else (unless they're literally shitposting), unless you actually wish to see mass cancellations. And the productive solution also isn't to hold Lucid hostage with idea that implementing pro-value solutions would upset the old guard.

From the beginning of my membership, I have stayed out of argumentative posts but feel the need to comment at this point. I have to support this comment by @invalidname but for another reason.

Tesla was struggling to survive and close to bankruptcy until sales of their Model 3 and Y saved their bacon. With or without Saudi support, Lucid is bleeding cash and struggling significantly. Like Tesla, Lucid will live or die secondary to the success of the Pure. If large numbers are sold, Lucid will flourish. If not, Lucid will continue to struggle or worse. Therefore, it is important for Lucid to know the opinions of those who are considering cancellation. If they can use the opinions to modify their product and maximize sales, it would be good news for all of us. In my opinion, finding a way to offer highway assist for less than the full Dream Drive Pro will be proven critical to their long-term future.

 

[icebergpvb]

That is not even remotely the same.

You are incorrect in that the Chinese local govt actually backed Nio, sold their stake, and took a profit.

How China’s communist officials became venture capitalists

Hefei, a city in eastern China, has pioneered a shift in Chinese capitalism over recent years, in which local governments are increasingly taking minority stakes in private companies like electric vehicle maker Nio.

www.scmp.com

I read regularly here that the PIF will keep the balance sheet healthy. It’s a major reason to believe the company will have the funding to scale and service cars well into the future. Nio hasn’t even received $1B from the Chinese govt. You’re arguing that Lucid is not backed by a sovereign? They just announced up to $1.5B ($900mm from PIF) in dilution, on top of local factory subsidies, a 100k unit order, and the $1B recapitalization (pre-SPAC) in 2018.

“Not even remotely the same”, I believe you mean the PIF is much more aggressive and owns 60% of the company, not 0%.

 

[level]

The OP cancelled anyway.

Nio ET5:

NIO ET5: Mid-size Smart Electric Sedan | NIO | test

NIO ET5 is a perfect combination of NIO's supercar DNA and Design for AD concept,inspired by the colors of the sky, the ET5 comes with 9 exterior colors, NIO ET5 1,000 km CLTC est.

www.nio.com

620 miles of range, all the level 2 autonomy features, 0-60 <4.3s, $46k

A little bit disappointed that the price tag of ¥328.000 ($46,100 USD) is just for the basic model (75 kWh battery with 550 km (342 mi) NEDC range, 445 km (277 mi) WLTP range).
The model with 1,000 km (621 mi) range is still up in the air...

 

[C28]

OP here. The point of this original post was to spur exactly this discussion. I don’t feel entitled to Highway assist or such. I just want Lucid to be honest, transparent, and consistent, and I do not feel they were so regarding Highway Assist in Dreamdrive non-pro. Simple as that. And yes, I did cancel my Airs as I felt they had demonstrated behaviors regarding transparency inconsistent with a company I wanted to support (and I very much want to support a startup American EV manufacturer, which is why I own a Rivian R1S). I post here only as an enthusiast, and if they rectify this type of issue, or at a minimum are clear on their “L2/L3 driving assist plans, I am happy to reserve a Gravity SUV this spring.

As for those on this forum, I only posted the Barry LucidInsider Twitter spat because I admired him as an enthusiast who tried to get a ‘in the details’ Lucid blog started like all the Tesla and Rivian ones we see, and it was unfortunate to see Lucid treat someone that way publicly.

If we get past the flaming and trolling of me, hopefully you can see that I don’t care about clicks or something, nor the stock price, you will see I am simply trying to spur EXACTLY this discussion so Lucid sees it, and can correct it before they have massive cancellations of the mass-market Pure due to highway assist, because I care about innovative companies and sometimes they can get arrogant or screw up packaging. My level of detail in these posts should demonstrate I have followed Lucid a long time and know the technical details. I respect everyone who bought a AGT or dream and money is no object, but this company won’t survive as a boutique car company without steady mass market orders so its really not necessary to treat Pure owners like garbage, rather and hear out their opinions if you actually care about Lucid’s viability beyond a patronage of the Saudi Arabia investment fund. No one wants Lucid to be the next Fisker Karma.