Are We Asking the Wrong Question About Charging?

[hydbob]

Let's ask the Pure and Touring Owners:

When you charge @ a DCFC (e.g., EA, EVGo, ertc.), how long does it take for you to charge from 10% to 30% SoC? How long does it take for you to charge from 10% SoC to 80% SoC?

Does your Lucid Pure/Touring meet your expectation regarding the charging speed at DCFCs?

Thread 'Charging curve logs post 2.1.52'
https://lucidowners.com/threads/charging-curve-logs-post-2-1-52.8093/

 

[Pragmatic]

P

Post in thread 'Beyond the Charging Curve: What Are Your Real-World DCFC Speeds?'

Dec 17, 2024

Well I said I'd check next time I was on a trip.
2023 Pure AWD, 45F, preconditioned for 35 minutes, driving between 60 and 75.
Took 30 seconds from attaching plug until charging began
Speed. SOC
238kw. 5%
222kw. 10%
200kw. 15%
187kw. 20%
172kw. 25%
160kw. 30%
148kw. 35%
139kw. 40%
125kw. 45%
112kw. 50%
101kw. 55%
91kw. 60%
82kw. 65%
74kw. 70%
65kw. 75%
57kw. 80%
Total time 37 minutes.

• Pragmatic

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• 

 

[borski]

BTW, if you do the "Rule-of-Thumb" calculation, AGT with 22 modules charges ar 900V, then Pure/Touring with 18 modules should be charging around 900*(18/22) ~736V, not 600V!


The delta between 736V vs 600V could easily exaplin the slower charging rate on the Pure/Touring. Perhaps there are other limiters taht I am unaaware of. But is is not the charging physics or electrochemistry.

I am not trying to be an ass...but the numbers don't seem to jive!

I don’t know what “rule of thumb” calculation you’re doing, but again, I did the math for you, as did Peter in the battery video, which if you haven’t watched you really should. 924V max for the GT/DE/GT-P, 756V max for the Pure/Touring.

Post in thread 'Are We Asking the Wrong Question About Charging?'
https://lucidowners.com/threads/are-we-asking-the-wrong-question-about-charging.10858/post-241372

This horse seems pretty dead to me.

 

[Lucken]

I would think ambient temperature plays a role in both the DCFC’s output as well as how fast the battery will accept a charge. We had 6 degree temps this morning (coldest I can recall in several years), and just for fun I went over to my local DCFC, a 5 minute drive, to see what the speeds were. With no preconditioning, and a 55% SOC, I was pulling a turtle-like 45kw. Yikes! After about 10 minutes I ‘zipped’ up to 53kw.

 

[timpossible]

'23 Pure here and 20%-81% is always between 32-36mins, even 15%-81% is also 32-36mins. I've never charged past 81% because 30mins for 80miles of driving doesn't seem worth it. This is for 41kwh-65kwh of charge as reported by the EA chargers. There are a lot of variances in the charger temp, temp of your car, weather, on different days, but charging to 81% generally requires about 34mins average. Never charged in freezing weather so I wouldn't know. Charging from 15%-30% is super quick about 6-7mins, but it's not enough range for me. But even extrapolating the fast charging that occurs when the battery is low to 80% you're really only going to save 10mins, which is probably more helpful to the person waiting to charge and keeping the line moving.

 

[BS8899]

P

Post in thread 'Beyond the Charging Curve: What Are Your Real-World DCFC Speeds?'

Dec 17, 2024

Well I said I'd check next time I was on a trip.
2023 Pure AWD, 45F, preconditioned for 35 minutes, driving between 60 and 75.
Took 30 seconds from attaching plug until charging began
Speed. SOC
238kw. 5%
222kw. 10%
200kw. 15%
187kw. 20%
172kw. 25%
160kw. 30%
148kw. 35%
139kw. 40%
125kw. 45%
112kw. 50%
101kw. 55%
91kw. 60%
82kw. 65%
74kw. 70%
65kw. 75%
57kw. 80%
Total time 37 minutes.

• Pragmatic

• 
• 

That's pretty good.

I don’t know what “rule of thumb” calculation you’re doing, but again, I did the math for you, as did Peter in the battery video, which if you haven’t watched you really should. 924V max for the GT/DE/GT-P, 756V max for the Pure/Touring.

Post in thread 'Are We Asking the Wrong Question About Charging?'
https://lucidowners.com/threads/are-we-asking-the-wrong-question-about-charging.10858/post-241372

This horse seems pretty dead to me.

I don't own a Pure or a Touring. As such, I do not have actual data on those trims. Some Touring/Pure owners reported significantly longer charge times compared to what's expected. Some of those numbers were posted previously. I will let them speak for themselves.

I posted my AGT charging data. As I noted in my prior posts, I don't get 30min @10-80% as one would expect. I average between 50-60m 10% to 80% session time (including starting to finishing). I posted a 46m charging session in my post last week. As I noted in my post, I am not blaming Lucid for it. I said clearly that EA chargers and "unbeneficial energy" wastes (see SoC videos) might be contributing factors. You were dismissive about these factors. But my many charging sessions on road trips suggest that they are real and make the actual charging session time longer than expected.

If I remember correctly, @momo3605 posted his charging experience. I will let you look it up yourself.

 

[borski]

That's pretty good.

I don't own a Pure or a Touring. As such, I do not have actual data on those trims. Some Touring/Pure owners reported significantly longer charge times compared to what's expected. Some of those numbers were posted previously. I will let them speak for themselves.

I posted my AGT charging data. As I noted in my prior posts, I don't get 30min @10-80% as one would expect. I average between 50-60m 10% to 80% session time (including starting to finishing). I posted a 46m charging session in my post last week. As I noted in my post, I am not blaming Lucid for it. I said clearly that EA chargers and "unbeneficial energy" wastes (see SoC videos) might be contributing factors. You were dismissive about these factors. But my many charging sessions on road trips suggest that they are real and make the actual charging session time longer than expected.

If I remember correctly, @momo3605 posted his charging experience. I will let you look it up yourself.

I wasn’t referring to charging times. I was referring to the voltages the respective trims run on. We don’t have to guess at what those are; we know them.

That’s all I was clarifying.

To be clear, I have not intended to be dismissive about anything. Of course EA chargers, temperatures (of both the battery and of the power cabinets), and so on affect the rate of charge. But it affects the rate of charge for different trims at proportional rates.

If you were to precondition for long enough to get the batteries to an ideal temp, and if you were to be at a DCFC charger reliably providing high speeds, you should be charging as quickly as promised. If you *never* do, there is something wrong.

 

[joec]

This seems like a ton of overthinking if you ask me.

I have a Touring. I spend somewhere between 20 and 40 minutes charging, no matter what I need, and no matter what speed the charger gives me. I've never needed to spend more than that.

If I can eat where I charge, bonus. If I can't, it takes me a bit longer to finish my trip.

I made it from Grand Junction to Reno comfortably in a single day this summer, with ample time to enjoy a nice dinner and get some rest when I reached Reno. I spend ten minutes the night before a trip planning my route, and I look for hotels where I can charge overnight, as that saves me a bit more time.

No matter what, it's never more than a minor inconvenience, given how pleasant and inexpensive the drive is. I spend 0$ on charging (and will for another year, thanks to my free EA deal). So I'm still coming out way ahead compared to gasoline. And I know I'm getting way further between chargers than I would in most other EVs.

 

[Rutrow]

 

[Blue Lectroid]

Loved this post.

I find it a sad commentary on our times that we have become so time obsessed and rushed that taking a 30 minute break to charge is deemed to terrible for words.

Perhaps if we planned our trips around places to stop and enjoy we could flip this on its head. Go for a hike. Visit a museum or a park. Read a chapter in a book (if you love your Lucid so much that you don’t want to get out of it, LOL). Listen to the amazing stereo.

Does it really matter whether it takes 20 minutes or 30 minutes to charge? Are those extra 10 minutes THAT precious?

IMHO we’ve clearly taken a wrong turn somewhere along the way…

 

[Knucklehead]

Loved this post.

I find it a sad commentary on our times that we have become so time obsessed and rushed that taking a 30 minute break to charge is deemed to terrible for words.

Perhaps if we planned our trips around places to stop and enjoy we could flip this on its head. Go for a hike. Visit a museum or a park. Read a chapter in a book (if you love your Lucid so much that you don’t want to get out of it, LOL). Listen to the amazing stereo.

Does it really matter whether it takes 20 minutes or 30 minutes to charge? Are those extra 10 minutes THAT precious?

IMHO we’ve clearly taken a wrong turn somewhere along the way…

No but an hour is not reasonable at all. If you have to wait to charge, and then the charge is slow, any BEV can take a hour or more. Horrible. This is why range is so important.

 

[Blue Lectroid]

No but an hour is not reasonable at all. If you have to wait to charge, and then the charge is slow, any BEV can take a hour or more. Horrible. This is why range is so important.

Agreed. An hour does stretch things beyond the realm of reasonable…but that’s an infrastructure (or lack thereof) issue…

 

[Knucklehead]

Agreed. An hour does stretch things beyond the realm of reasonable…but that’s an infrastructure (or lack thereof) issue…

I was responding to the "time obsessed" comment. People want to get where they are going and the refueling stop is not something people want to waste time doing. Whether it is one hour or 30 minutes.

Lucid absolutely has the right approach, and I am expecting good 400V charging speed when they finally reveal that to us. For sure the 1000V charging speed leads the industry.

 

[Blue Lectroid]

I was responding to the "time obsessed" comment. People want to get where they are going and the refueling stop is not something people want to waste time doing. Whether it is one hour or 30 minutes.

And that is essentially what I was commenting on…how sad is it that the destination has become the prime driver in our lives when the journey can be just as fun?

Merry Christmas!!!

 

[BS8899]

And that is essentially what I was commenting on…how sad is it that the destination has become the prime driver in our lives when the journey can be just as fun?

Merry Christmas!!!

I respect @Blue Letroid's perpective on life and I admire his attitude applaud his enjoyment of his Lucid.

That said, we should not be dismissive RE: @Knucklehead's position either. Lucid posture its cars as icons of power, speed, efficiency, and charging speed. But in real life, some of these claims seem to fall short. To some, like @Knucklehead (and me), realizable efficiency, realizable chaging speed, and realizable time to "onboard" charge are important metrics.

Persusant to some of the recent back-and-forth, there seems to be denial amongst some owners about the real-life performance of the Lucid Air. I believe there is plenty of data, RE: it takes longer time than adverstized to chrage from 10% to 80% in real-life. While Lucid's benchmark numbers (on-boarding charge of 200mile at low SoC, presumably done under controlled conditions, as they should be) are impressive, I suspect that in real-life, not all the modulating factors (e.g., temperature, DCFC capabilities/facilitation, parasitic charging loss, etc.) are under Lucid's control. Hence, the real-life numbers often fall short of the specs, just like your EPA efficieny and range numbers. I am not saying Lucid's specs are unrealizable. That said, real owners' experiece should not be dismissed out-of-hand. For example, when I reported 5%to 80% SoC (AGT) charging duration to be ~50min and my charging sessions often spend 50- 60min at the EA stations, it was suggested that my experience is a substantial deviation and should get my HV Battery and Wunderbox checked. I've asked Lucid Service to do exactly that on my Jan 2, 2025 anuuual maintence service. I don't think I have a Wunderbox/HV battery problem, but I will let Lucid's diagnositics speak for themselves

Recently, we had this back-and-forth about whether the Pure and Touring trims were being charged at the correct voltage. Some owners calim their 10-80% SoC charging sessions approach 60min. There was also a suggestion that the Pure/Touring DCFC charging voltage might be as low as 600-650 Volts. If true, such a low charging voltage would indeed compromise charging speed. @Adnillien gave us a master tutorial on the subject. And @borski reminded us that Rwalinson, in his video master class on batteries, also said that the Pure/Touring trims charging voltages are in the mid 700Volts.

So, did we answer all the "conspiracy questions" RE: why some Pure/Touring trim owners are experiencing much longer than expected (5-10%to 80% SoC) charging time?

Let's look at Lucid's published specs:

Charge to 200 miles (from low SoC) AGT/11min, Touring/15min, Pure/17min. In the context of @Adnillien and Rawlinson's tutorials, why are these specs so different?

I look forward to your inisghts.

 

[Blue Lectroid]

I respect @Blue Letroid's perpective on life and I admire his attitude applaud his enjoyment of his Lucid.

That said, we should not be dismissive RE: @Knucklehead's position either. Lucid posture its cars as icons of power, speed, efficiency, and charging speed. But in real life, some of these claims seem to fall short. To some, like @Knucklehead (and me), realizable efficiency, realizable chaging speed, and realizable time to "onboard" charge are important metrics.

I completely agree that my way of looking at life should have no bearing on yours and that what’s not important to me may be of paramount importance to you. I like that. It makes our world (and this Forum) interesting. Enjoy your holiday and thanks very much for being able to civilly disagree — it’s a form of high art these days!!

 

[Steveinarizona]

Yes…that’s why I asking you to think critically about it…why would German OEMs sacrifice a big overrated EPA rating which would help sell more EVs over a tiny one-time EPA test cost?

They have a history of underrating, I don’t know why, maybe it’s an EU regulation thing, or a gentlemen’s agreement, or they want customers to be confident to know they got everything they paid for and more…who knows…but that’s how they’ve always done it.

Yes. Typically, BMWs deliver stated horsepower at the wheel, not at the crank where everyone else gets their data. Most cars lose 10-15% of their HP between the crank and the wheels. I always preferred the under promise approach.

 

[BS8899]

Yes. Typically, BMWs deliver stated horsepower at the wheel, not at the crank where everyone else gets their data. Most cars lose 10-15% of their HP between the crank and the wheels. I always preferred the under promise approach.

To your point,

Do you know:

> is the advertized "Power" on the Lucid the power "drawn from the battery" but not neceesarily the "mechnical power avvailable at the drive wheels"? What about other EVs?
> my expereince with my Rivian R1S is that its rated vs achievable efficiencies (hence, range) is much closer than that on the Lucid. Now, the rivian is less efficient than the Lucid. I am not saying it achieves better efficiency and range. But it is typically much closer to the claimed range when compared to the Lucid. Still, I think the Rivian is not as close and the Geramn EVs.

 

[momo3605]

To your point,

Do you know:

> is the advertized "Power" on the Lucid the power "drawn from the battery" but not neceesarily the "mechnical power avvailable at the drive wheels"? What about other EVs?
> my expereince with my Rivian R1S is that its rated vs achievable efficiencies (hence, range) is much closer than that on the Lucid. Now, the rivian is less efficient than the Lucid. I am not saying it achieves better efficiency and range. But it is typically much closer to the claimed range when compared to the Lucid. Still, I think the Rivian is not as close and the Geramn EVs.

I had a Loaner R1T last week with the most fuel efficient 21” aero wheels/tires and the damn thing was averaging 3 miles/kwh. I was like…damn it! that’s the same efficiency I’m averaging long term in my Lucid Air

 

[BS8899]

I had a Loaner R1T last week with the most fuel efficient 21” aero wheels/tires and the damn thing was averaging 3 miles/kwh. I was like…damn it! that’s the same efficiency I’m averaging long term in my Lucid Air

3miles/kWh on an R1T is phenomenal! Hope you weren't smoking something!

On short runs in slower speed, I can get up to the high 2's, say 2.7-2.8 mi/kWh.
The best I have done on a sustained 70-75mph drive (over 100-150 miles) is about 2.4-2.5mi/kWh. I have to try harder!