Tesla blamed drivers for failures of parts it long knew were defective

[hydbob]

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/tesla-musk-steering-suspension

 

[xponents]

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/tesla-musk-steering-suspension

Look, I know Musk isnt a great person, but WHY does the media insist on blaming him for everything? I doubt he engineered the model y's suspension..

The concerns are very concerning though(lol). That model y with the steering wheel falling off happened near my town, which is infested with teslas everywhere.

 

[hydbob]

Because when you are the CEO you get blamed for everything.

 

[Babyrocko1908]

Because when you are the CEO you get blamed for everything.

The buck stops with Musky! Imagine a deadly and/or defective issue with a Lucid and me saying, nope not Peter's fault he didn't design the part. Musty has these Tesla nuts in a choke hold! His car could hurt a member of their family and they'd still blame something else. It's alarming to be frank.

 

[xponents]

The buck stops with Musky! Imagine a deadly and/or defective issue with a Lucid and me saying, nope not Peter's fault he didn't design the part. Musty has these Tesla nuts in a choke hold! His car could hurt a member of their family and they'd still blame something else. It's alarming to be frank.

But it wasnt DIRECTLY his fault... in the Peter scenario you gave, if he didn't design the defective part in effect, I wouldn't blame him. Its not like Musk does much except market and "manage" the company, you should blame the suspension designers! Right?

Unless Musk knew about the issue beforehand and decided to ignore it. Then it would be his fault. But lets refrain from speculation..

 

[joec]

Look, I know Musk isnt a great person, but WHY does the media insist on blaming him for everything? I doubt he engineered the model y's suspension..

The concerns are very concerning though(lol). That model y with the steering wheel falling off happened near my town, which is infested with teslas everywhere.

“It not the crime. It’s the cover up.”

Another quote from before your time.

Every car company runs into issues with faulty parts and design. The story here is that they blamed customers and made them pay for parts that should have been covered under warranty. And that very likely was a decision made with Musk’s knowledge, if not his leadership. And if it wasn’t, it’s still his fault as CEO.

 

[xponents]

“It not the crime. It’s the cover up.”

Another quote from before your time.

Every car company runs into issues with faulty parts and design. The story here is that they blamed customers and made them pay for parts that should have been covered under warranty. And that very likely was a decision made with Musk’s knowledge, if not his leadership. And if it wasn’t, it’s still his fault as CEO.

From that point of view, it does make sense. Thanks.

One last thing, this part of the article was particularly out of pocket:

Neither Musk nor any of his companies commented for these reports. But he recently lashed out at critics of his social-media company, X, formerly Twitter, which has seen its revenue and market value plummet since Musk bought the firm for $44 billion about a year ago. At the live Times event, he went after advertisers who boycotted X over Musk’s endorsement of an antisemitic post on the social-media site. “Go fuck yourself,” the billionaire told companies who pulled their business.

Hes a terrible person, but how does that relate in any way to the topic?

 

[Babyrocko1908]

But it wasnt DIRECTLY his fault... in the Peter scenario you gave, if he didn't design the defective part in effect, I wouldn't blame him. Its not like Musk does much except market and "manage" the company, you should blame the suspension designers! Right?

Unless Musk knew about the issue beforehand and decided to ignore it. Then it would be his fault. But lets refrain from speculation..

You do realize what my professional background is right? I'll give you a hint -- it starts with an L, I went to law school and that's not even my day job.

 

[Tesla2.0]

This is pretty damaging, but how I’m not surprised reading people crying complaints about Tesla.

 

[xponents]

You do realize what my professional background is right? I'll give you a hint -- it starts with an L, I went to law school and that's not even my day job.

Yeah you’re right, sorry. I failed to recognize that a CEO is responsible for all matters like this, along with the COO(?)

 

[Babyrocko1908]

Yeah you’re right, sorry. I failed to recognize that a CEO is responsible for all matters like this, along with the COO(?)

There's legal reasons and precedent for why Musk is responsible but I don't have time to explain these to you. Before I get back to work, I'll reiterate a point to you I made last week. It's not necessary for you to respond to every post with your thoughts especially on topics such as these. However, it does offer a great opportunity to read, listen, and learn! Most of the folks here are seasoned adults in their chosen professions. Read, listen, and learn! We know you're a smart kid but not the smartest person in the room.

 

[gaskiller]

Not surprised, this is the culture of Tesla as a company, and how musk runs his companies. Overyhype, lie, blame the customer, hide deficiencies.

You can see a pattern here. Never buying a Tesla, don't trust my life in one of his machines. You never know what else he is hiding.

 

[gaskiller]

The buck stops with Musky! Imagine a deadly and/or defective issue with a Lucid and me saying, nope not Peter's fault he didn't design the part. Musty has these Tesla nuts in a choke hold! His car could hurt a member of their family and they'd still blame something else. It's alarming to be frank.

Yeah, Tesla fanboys will call this another " hit " piece.

 

[gaskiller]

The NHTSA has to grow some and make Tesla accountable. They should not allow FSD to be used on roads it wasn't designed for and they should make Tesla recall all cars and check suspension. Looks like NHSTA would rather not upset Tesla cult than do what is right and safe.

 

[borski]

Yeah you’re right, sorry. I failed to recognize that a CEO is responsible for all matters like this, along with the COO(?)

To make a long story short, there is this concept of the “corporate veil” which exists for corporations, reducing the liability on individuals in various ways in favor of the company rather than the individual.

That said, officers and directors (and the board) are responsible for managing the company. Something like this couldn’t have been done without management’s approval, which would have been bad since they’d have committed fraud. Alternatively, management could attempt to claim ignorance, but then they would likely be deemed negligent in some way, since it’s literally their job to know what’s going on. If they didn’t set up the proper process, unless Elon was explicitly *lied to* by his employees, he absolutely should have known, and thus could have put a stop to it.

Examples of how to pierce the corporate veil: https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=4ff8ebf0-4bca-426e-8273-758140f6d0eb

IANAL.

All of this has nothing to do with the fact that if he did know, any reasonable board would be firing him for defrauding their customers.

 

[gaskiller]

This I don't understand. Tesla recalled in China but not USA?

"The company told NHTSA it had voluntarily recalled the aft link and another suspension part under pressure from China regulators, even though it disagreed with their assessment, because fighting them presented a “heavy burden.” At the time, Tesla was looking to ramp up production at its newly built Shanghai Gigafactory, which would become the world’s most productive and profitable electric-vehicle plant.

By contrast, Tesla took a firm stance with U.S. regulators."

 

[xponents]

To make a long story short, there is this concept of the “corporate veil” which exists for corporations, reducing the liability on individuals in various ways in favor of the company rather than the individual.

That said, officers and directors (and the board) are responsible for managing the company. Something like this couldn’t have been done without management’s approval, which would have been bad since they’d have committed fraud. Alternatively, management could attempt to claim ignorance, but then they would likely be deemed negligent in some way, since it’s literally their job to know what’s going on. If they didn’t set up the proper process, unless Elon was explicitly *lied to* by his employees, he absolutely should have known, and thus could have put a stop to it.

Examples of how to pierce the corporate veil: https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=4ff8ebf0-4bca-426e-8273-758140f6d0eb

IANAL.

All of this has nothing to do with the fact that if he did know, any reasonable board would be firing him for defrauding their customers.

Very interesting article! Am I interpreting you correctly in that if Tesla was aware, there is no way that Elon could be innocent unless his employees lied to him?

 

[borski]

Very interesting article! Am I interpreting you correctly in that if Tesla was aware, there is no way that Elon could be innocent unless his employees lied to him?

IANAL, and that sounds nuanced. But in general, the CEO is responsible for… knowing things about the company and managing it.

So yes, nearly always, unless facts were intentionally withheld from them or they were explicitly lied to, the management team that was related (aka not the VP Human Resources, who likely has absolutely nothing to do with this) is responsible, at least in addition to those who committed the acts.

And since Elon manages the managers, or is supposed to, the buck does stop with him. Same as it would with Peter or anyone else.

“I didn’t know because my head was in the sand and I didn’t ask,” aka ignorance, is not a valid defense. It is his job to know.

And especially if they issued recalls in China? Yeah, then Elon *definitely* knew.

So yeah, unrelated, except that it isn’t; Elon and Tesla, for better or worse, are extremely intertwined. That’s the way he likes it. But you can’t have that only be true when the news is good.

 

[Instinctive]

IANAL, and that sounds nuanced. But in general, the CEO is responsible for… knowing things about the company and managing it.

So yes, nearly always, unless facts were intentionally withheld from them or they were explicitly lied to, the management team that was related (aka not the VP Human Resources, who likely has absolutely nothing to do with this) is responsible, at least in addition to those who committed the acts.

And since Elon manages the managers, or is supposed to, the buck does stop with him. Same as it would with Peter or anyone else.

“I didn’t know because my head was in the sand and I didn’t ask,” aka ignorance, is not a valid defense. It is his job to know.

And especially if they issued recalls in China? Yeah, then Elon *definitely* knew.

So yeah, unrelated, except that it isn’t; Elon and Tesla, for better or worse, are extremely intertwined. That’s the way he likes it. But you can’t have that only be true when the news is good.

I am a lawyer. It's practically impossible to pierce the corporate veil in the U.S.

 

[borski]

I am a lawyer. It's practically impossible to pierce the corporate veil in the U.S.

Oh, I know. I was just using it as an analogy for 'what the CEO should be responsible for' rather than suggesting anyone actually try and sue.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if one knowingly commits intentional fraud, presumably the corporate veil would be pierced then, and D&O/E&O insurance wouldn't come into play, per my understanding.

(I've run companies, but I am definitely not a lawyer)