NACS (Tesla adapter) versus CCS Megathread

[Bunnylebowski]

For those of you who are upset and want Lucid to adopt NACS right now, here’s what you’re asking for:

 

[Bunnylebowski]

I do think it’s worth it to have an educated conversation about this, as I might be wrong on some things. Here’s what we know:
-Lucid WunderBox can do max 50kw on MagicDock, and presumably if Lucid switches and adds NACS support, we’ll get that max speed everywhere until Tesla installs 1000v stations in the US, which nobody knows if or when that will happen.
-Tesla superchargers are generally more reliable than all CCS chargers.
-Its very easy to charge non-Tesla cars via MagicDock in my very limited experience, but at 1/3 the speed you’re used to, and given the prevalence of Tesla you’ll likely have to wait in lines to get that slow speed.

Here’s what we don’t know:
-How much would it cost Lucid to modify the cars and WunderBox to support NACS? Would that cost get passed on to owners?
-Can NACS plug do V2H and V2G and V2L which is what many Lucid owners were hoping for, given Lucid does mention V2H capabilities. The same applies for F150 Lightning, etc.

If the Lucid could do minimum 150kw on Tesla chargers with no upgrade equipment cost to me, that would be great, sign me up. I’d camp outside Rawlinson house with protest signs if I thought that was doable. Right now though there’s zero information indicating any of this is possible. V4 Tesla charging might be a different story, but we have about as much trustworthy predictions on that as we do for Cybertruck, FSD and Roadster 2.0.

 

[cardiacTom]

It's Tesla's world and everyone else is just living in it. It's like they own 60% of the gas stations in the country, and 85% of the reliable ones. If other cars have difficulty on their network, what do they care? It just makes you more likely to buy one of the 20 million cars a year they want to sell. If Lucid can only charge at 50 kw, why would you buy a lucid when you can get a model S for 60k less, charge 5x as fast, the Tesla charging network is expanding every second (vs. EA, which I have seen very few new chargers outside of really high EV areas, basically CA and the NE). Tesla is eating everyone's lunch.

 

[Bunnylebowski]

It's Tesla's world and everyone else is just living in it. It's like they own 60% of the gas stations in the country, and 85% of the reliable ones. If other cars have difficulty on their network, what do they care? It just makes you more likely to buy one of the 20 million cars a year they want to sell. If Lucid can only charge at 50 kw, why would you buy a lucid when you can get a model S for 60k less, charge 5x as fast, the Tesla charging network is expanding every second (vs. EA, which I have seen very few new chargers outside of really high EV areas, basically CA and the NE). Tesla is eating everyone's lunch.

Underlying that assumption is that most EV owners exclusively DC fast charge their cars. Maybe that’s true and I’m the fool?

 

[DeaneG]

...If Lucid can only charge at 50 kw, why would you buy a lucid ...

To drive a better car every day. We road-trip charge maybe 5% of the time at the most.

 

[Tâm]

-Tesla superchargers are generally more reliable than all CCS chargers.

In addition to the CCS interoperability challenge between different car brands, there's also a problem of how quickly a company can fix the broken charger.

For example, an observation from @Tim-in-CA:

"And .... just in time for the 4th Holiday weekend , of the 13 EA chargers within about a 20 mile radius from me only 6 are working (that's 46% functional rate!!). The nearest one is 1 out of 4 working! All this "excitement" about adding NACS connectors to EA isn't going to solve the sh*tty performance issues of EA. I REALLY hope that the NEVI penalties kick in once EA starts accepting funds."

It's possible that Tesla Superchargers also break down too, but they monitor them in real time and dispatch the repair team timely. Thus, there's a perception that it's more reliable.

-How much would it cost Lucid to modify the cars and WunderBox to support NACS? Would that cost get passed on to owners?

I imagine it will be a lot and it is not free, especially to customers.

-Can NACS plug do V2H and V2G and V2L which is what many Lucid owners were hoping for, given Lucid does mention V2H capabilities. The same applies for F150 Lightning, etc.

Tesla has voiced its position on bi-directional charging: It would void your Tesla warranty if you use your Tesla car as a stationary power source.

That said, it also says NACS is CCS1-compatible and in its spec, it reserves Chapter 4, section 4.6 Vehicle to X (V2X) on page 11.

So NACS is bidirectional in the document but don't ask Tesla to do it for you!

If the Lucid could do minimum 150kw on Tesla chargers with no upgrade equipment cost to me, that would be great, sign me up.

It requires a major financial budget and a long time to design and implement the system. Years if you have the money.

I’d camp outside Rawlinson house with protest signs if I thought that was doable.

Oh... It is doable for other brands:

GM Ultium 350kW 800V /250 kW 400V
Porsche Taycan 350kW 800V /150kW 400V
It's not about the lack of technology, but it's about who's willing to spend the money to do that.
Lucid could do what GM does: 350kW 800V /250 kW 400V but Lucid made the best decision of 50 kW given what they had to work with.

V4 Tesla charging might be a different story, but we have about as much trustworthy predictions on that as we do for Cybertruck, FSD and Roadster 2.0.

That's missing the point.

We are future-proof with 800V but we have to pay a high price if we can't access them as mentioned by Tim above with only 6 out of 13 EA in 20-mile radius working.

While waiting for the abundance of 800V stations, it would be comforting to know that there's a fallback plan of accessing much slower 400V Tesla Superchargers so I can get enough miles to drag my car to the next town with a working 800V station.

---
Disclosure: All my posts are opinions and they are not based on facts.

 

[Bunnylebowski]

Also because of this, I’m not getting too excited about being able to charge at 50kw.

 

[ViperSSD]

I may be in the minority here, but I think its due to the options that are available. More will always be better than less even when the Tesla supercharger option may not be great.
That all being said, the CyberTruck and upcoming roadster (when they arrive the perennial 'next year') will likely require high voltage architectures my understanding was the V4 superchargers would be capable of this.

However, I'm sure there will be multiple options for adapters so even if Lucid doesn't create their own, we can always use those. Same with the tesla wall charger adapter I use now.

 

[Tâm]

I may be in the minority here, but I think its due to the options that are available. More will always be better than less even when the Tesla supercharger option may not be great.
That all being said, the CyberTruck and upcoming roadster (when they arrive the perennial 'next year') will likely require high voltage architectures my understanding was the V4 superchargers would be capable of this.

However, I'm sure there will be multiple options for adapters so even if Lucid doesn't create their own, we can always use those. Same with the tesla wall charger adapter I use now.

According to the current poll, you are not in the minority who want access to a slower 50kw NASC 400V Superchargers: 66.7% vs 33.3%.

The future implementation of the minimum requirement of NEVI funding 920V will be here but in the meantime, accessing to an additional pool of slower chargers is still better than being towed to the next fast 800V chargers.

Even an access to the much slower Tesla Destination AC chargers is very much welcome. Yes, we can buy an Tesla AC charger adapter now but it'll be nicer to get one from our own companies rather than an unproven ebay vendor.

 

[Bunnylebowski]

According to the current poll, you are not in the minority who want access to a slower 50kw NASC 400V Superchargers: 66.7% vs 33.3%.

View attachment 13387

The future implementation of the minimum requirement of NEVI funding 920V will be here but in the meantime, accessing to an additional pool of slower chargers is still better than being towed to the next fast 800V chargers.

Even an access to the much slower Tesla Destination AC chargers is very much welcome. Yes, we can buy an Tesla AC charger adapter now but it'll be nicer to get one from our own companies rather than an unproven ebay vendor.

I think that’s a bit of a false choice. If you needed a tow because you arrived at a broken EA station with 1% SOC, that’s kind of your fault. I’d be happy to have a good L2 Tesla adapter that doesn’t risk the warranty of the Lucid. More options is better, as long as it doesn’t lead to chaos or heavy extra cost. Maybe it’s not too expensive to put NACS into the Lucid and make the WunderBox do 150kw on 400v chargers, but I’m not sure if what we’re asking for is realistic, only Lucid would know that.

 

[MorganB]

I wonder if Tesla is going to drag their feet on Magic Dock with the future adoption of their plug? I keep seeing Supercharger tweets about new charging locations going online but not a magic dock in sight.

 

[Tâm]

...If you needed a tow because you arrived at a broken EA station with 1% SOC, that’s kind of your fault...

It's easy to blame the victim: The victim didn't plan. The victim didn't learn the lesson that they should not trust the reliability of a charging station.

However, problem solvers would pour money into NEVI to build 920V stations every 50 miles apart.

Problem solvers would decide what to do while waiting for NEVI funding to start. It has opened to applications, but we don't know when they will announce approved vendors.

That means the future will arrive, but what will we do while waiting for the future?

More options is better, as long as it doesn’t lead to chaos or heavy extra cost.

Current concerns are from Tesla owners who don't want an extensive long line. As long as Tesla size up according to the demand and owners can now see which stations are not busy, I don't think that will be a problem.

Those who have a deal are promised to get an adapter in 2024. It's unknown if they will be free. But GM said the deal costs them nothing. That's pretty cheap.

Maybe it’s not too expensive to put NACS into the Lucid and make the WunderBox do 150kw on 400v chargers, but I’m not sure if what we’re asking for is realistic, only Lucid would know that.

I am not an engineer, but it is unrealistic that Lucid has the resources to retrofit existing cars to work at a decent speed of 150 kW at 400V. There are good reasons, both design, and money, that Lucid decided that 50 kW at 400V is the best choice.

If Lucid has money, it could redesign 150 kW 400V for new cars, which will take 2 or 5 years or even more. By then, NEVI-motivated receivers might get most chargers out 50 miles apart, making the costly redesigning process a moot point.

 

[Tâm]

I wonder if Tesla is going to drag their feet on Magic Dock with the future adoption of their plug?

Logically, they do because they are obligated to ensure the deal performs. They have to ramp up the adapters for those with the deal. They have to ensure the cables will reach deal-people. They have to make sure the interoperability will work with different deals...

They have no contracts with Magic Dock, so hurry is unnecessary.

The NEVI requires a minimum of 4 CSS at each location, so it's too symbolic to worry about ramping up Magic Dock! (Tesla is building 100 Supercharger stalls in Barstow, CA and only requiring 4 CCS is too little of a burden)!

 

[Snafu]

Reading this thread is extremely demoralizing. I bought a car that looked to the future, and admittedly my driving habits may not be as demanding as many others on the forum, but I would have expected more of a push for pressure to demand more of the CCS networks rather than settle for putting “regular” in a “high test” tank. With the push towards more diverse EVs, relying on and believing in a single charging network from the past which may not be ready for that future and believing that it can be delivered at scale when more of that network’s cars are being sold for pennies on the dollar and flooding the market (and charging stalls) seems dicey. It’s not that we will be settling, it’s that I don’t trust that even that pittance may be delivered. “Eggs” and “baskets” come to mind here.

 

[emoylv]

I am hoping that for most of us this is an emotional issue rather than a practical one. My own situation: I have installed a Level 2 charger at home for the Lucid. I've also installed a 14-50R receptacle, soon to be replaced with a Bryant continuous duty one, so all 3 bays of my garage are EV capable. I make about 3 Interstate trips per year, around 1,200 miles/trip. I will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. I have 2.5 years left on my 3-year freebie with Lucid; after that, I'll probably sign up for 1 or several options on an "as needed" basis; after all, 3 trips/year is not a serious commitment to interstate travel. At home, I'll most definitely use my home charger after the expiration period since home charging (in Southern Nevada) is still cheaper than a public charger. I'm hopeful that the CCS/NACS standard will be resolved by then; if not, it doesn't really change things for me. If NACS becomes the de facto standard, my next vehicle purchase should come with a charger similar to the one that came with the Lucid; if not, I'll buy a NACS charger from Amazon, Tesla or some other vendor. I'll just plug that into the 14-50R. As for my current Autel level 2 charger, it will still charge my current Lucid, or hopefully I can purchase an adaptor to charge my next EV. If push comes to shove for interstate travel, I'll use my Lexus or rent a car if my Lexus is sold by then. The CCS/NACS rebate will be a slight inconvenience but not insurmountable. I think many of us have home chargers so I'm hopeful that the impact will be minimal for current Lucid owners. Those who do a lot of interstate travel will obviously have a much different opinion and concern.

 

[Tâm]

I bought a car that looked to the future,

There's no way your car will be obsolete when CCS is dead. The NEVI funding ensures a minimum of 4 CCS per station location.

...admittedly my driving habits may not be as demanding as many others on the forum

The average American drives 39 miles daily, so a shorter range of a Nissan Leaf of 73 EPA miles in 2010 would satisfy that requirement.

...I would have expected more of a push for pressure to demand more of the CCS networks...

As you can see from the poll, 33.3% is a substantial number. Only Ford, GM, Rivian, Volvo, and Polestar have stopped pushing for CSS, but the rest of the car manufacturers have not stopped using CCS. That's quite a substantial number of car companies still using CCS.

...With the push towards more diverse EVs, relying on and believing in a single charging network from the past which may not be ready for that future and believing that it can be delivered at scale when more of that network’s cars are being sold for pennies on the dollar and flooding the market (and charging stalls) seems dicey.

Please don't forget that Tesla is the only one among numerous charger companies: Electrify America, Charge Point, EVgo, and many others.

Users, including companies, spend their money where they get the best service.

It’s not that we will be settling, it’s that I don’t trust that even that pittance may be delivered. “Eggs” and “baskets” come to mind here.

Consumer Reports tested non-Tesla cars and discovered that it generally works, but the cord is too short, and the speed is slower than the spec of the 800V cars it tested (Lucid, Mercedes-Benz EQE, Kia EV6). For example, the Mercedes EQE got only 76 kW due to the 400V limitation below.

The magazine reinforces the experience of regular users and YouTubers: slower speed for their 800V cars and the cord is too short.

These come from users who don't have a deal, so I am unsure what kind of "trust" needs to be proven.

 

[Tâm]

I am hoping that for most of us this is an emotional issue rather than a practical one.

Exactly!

Most live in the city so the reliability of a charger outside their home doesn't matter.

...Those who do a lot of interstate travel will obviously have a much different opinion and concern.

Exactly!

 

[Tâm]

I was just reading Bloomberg and Peter Rawlinson has voiced the same concerns :

"“Whoever controls this — if it isn’t an open, impartial standard, if it’s owned by one company — has access to a lot of consumer data,” Rawlinson said. “It’s who owns that data, and making it genuinely open-sourced, that would worry me.”

Optimism Over Tesla's Chargers Is Just Hype, Lucid CEO Says

‘It’s just a plug,’ says Peter Rawlinson, who was part of the team that designed what Tesla is now trying to make an industry standard.

www.bloomberg.com

The article below agrees. It thinks the free deals are paid by data extracted from the stations, and that would be so profitable that there's no need to sell cars anymore!

The real reason Tesla is letting rival car companies use its EV charging stations

If you charge your EV from Ford or GM at a Tesla station, you may be handing over your car's data to Elon Musk.

www.businessinsider.com

 

[BobFM]

Mercedes-Benz Expands Charging Options for Customers: Access to Tesla Supercharger Network in North America While Building Its Own High-Power Charging Network

Mercedes-Benz EVs can use Tesla Superchargers in North America from 2024, and Mercedes-Benz's own charging network to implement NACS standard.

www.businesswire.com

And now Mercedes...though they will continue to build out their own network, at least for now...

 

[bhramabull]

Mercedes-Benz Expands Charging Options for Customers: Access to Tesla Supercharger Network in North America While Building Its Own High-Power Charging Network

Mercedes-Benz EVs can use Tesla Superchargers in North America from 2024, and Mercedes-Benz's own charging network to implement NACS standard.

www.businesswire.com

And now Mercedes...though they will continue to build out their own network, at least for now...

Yes they have indeed!!