NACS (Tesla adapter) versus CCS Megathread

[Tâm]

The problem is not the plug per se, but what voltage a car can accept. Yes, Tesla can accept 277V. I've done this before on my old 2012 Model S – but it was actually a J1772 EVS with J1772 plug using a Tesla J1772 to NACS adapter. The J1772 plugs are rated for 240V typically as per the standard, but the Max current is more of a factor. I would be curious to see how a Lucid would handle the 277V on a J1772 plug.

That sounds reasonable that the car has to be designed to take advantage of 277V AC.

That means higher AC charge might be possible for the next generation of newly designed cars.

 

[Tâm]

First Japanese car maker joined NACS:

Nissan will adopt Tesla's NACS charging port from 2025 in U.S., Canada - Autoblog

From 2024, Nissan will provide NACS charging adapters with its Ariya EV models currently equipped with CCS to enable them to charge on Tesla's Supercharger network.

www.autoblog.com

 

[EVCar]

My view: Plug matters. Same for the voltage
Function should go together with form. They both are on the same equation.

 

[Sandvinsd]

First Japanese car maker joined NACS:

Nissan will adopt Tesla's NACS charging port from 2025 in U.S., Canada - Autoblog

From 2024, Nissan will provide NACS charging adapters with its Ariya EV models currently equipped with CCS to enable them to charge on Tesla's Supercharger network.

www.autoblog.com

Well, they went from ChadeMo on the Leaf to CCS on the Ariya to now NACs.

 

[Bill55]

My view: Plug matters. Same for the voltage
Function should go together with form. They both are on the same equation.

What matters most is software. Without communication there is no DC fast charging. The plug as Mr. Rawlinson said is just plastic and copper. It will be nice when all chargers have the same plug, but it is pretty easy to have an adaptor or 2 in the trunk. For an adaptor to work the charger and car have to communicate.

 

[martinmeyer]

What matters most is software. Without communication there is no DC fast charging. The plug as Mr. Rawlinson said is just plastic and copper. It will be nice when all chargers have the same plug, but it is pretty easy to have an adaptor or 2 in the trunk. For an adaptor to work the charger and car have to communicate.

I've heard this sentiment several times, but I disagree with the sentiment. For electric cars, charging it is a significant part of the experience. Plugging in a CCA-1 cable is just annoying. It leads me to have a bad experience, trying to manipulate it ever so slightly to get the angle of this giant connector just right to plug it in.

There are really two parts to this argument.

1: There are more Tesla Supercharger than any other network, and they are more reliable.
2: CCS-1 is just a really annoying connector that leads users to having a bad experience charging their car.

I think this sentiment about it "just being a plug" is totally overlooking the annoying experience of using that plug.

 

[HC_79]

I've heard this sentiment several times, but I disagree with the sentiment. For electric cars, charging it is a significant part of the experience. Plugging in a CCA-1 cable is just annoying. It leads me to have a bad experience, trying to manipulate it ever so slightly to get the angle of this giant connector just right to plug it in.

There are really two parts to this argument.

1: There are more Tesla Supercharger than any other network, and they are more reliable.
2: CCS-1 is just a really annoying connector that leads users to having a bad experience charging their car.

I think this sentiment about it "just being a plug" is totally overlooking the annoying experience of using that plug.

Peter is right, a plug is just a plug. It's what behind the scenes that matters. I can almost guarantee if EA, EVGo etc. didn't mess up the whole charging experience with poorly maintained and shoddy infrastructure then no one would care whether it's a NACS, CCS1 or CCS2 plug. Look in Europe, they're all on CCS2 including Tesla SC's and no one is screaming. EA single handedly messed up the CCS rollout in the US and opened the door for Tesla to swoop in with NACS. If the network was reliable then we would have no doubt seen Tesla eventually switch to CCS but never going to happen now in the US.

That "annoying experience" has nothing to do with the plug itself, it's the charger and infrastructure behind it (EA is on its 3rd or 4th iteration of charger and still can't get it right).

It's going to be very interesting to see how Tesla handles the network being open to others. Is it reliable because it's a relatively controlled environment with 4 models or have they truly mastered the deployment of infrastructure? Kudos to them if the experience is seamless on all cars as it shows they truly know what they're doing and leagues ahead of the competition but the gate is still open on that. I guess we'll start finding out in 2024.

 

[c0mbe]

I've heard this sentiment several times, but I disagree with the sentiment. For electric cars, charging it is a significant part of the experience. Plugging in a CCA-1 cable is just annoying. It leads me to have a bad experience, trying to manipulate it ever so slightly to get the angle of this giant connector just right to plug it in.

There are really two parts to this argument.

1: There are more Tesla Supercharger than any other network, and they are more reliable.
2: CCS-1 is just a really annoying connector that leads users to having a bad experience charging their car.

I think this sentiment about it "just being a plug" is totally overlooking the annoying experience of using that plug.

I tried this argument, but apparently you need to be an electrical engineer to weigh-in/or understand why high-voltage charging is superior. My arguments were ultimately deleted but I’ll restate it: user experience is equally as important as the software and technical details. When it comes to the general public, it is usually more important.

In any case, Tesla WILL 100% offer 1000v charging. None of these automakers would have entered into an agreement without an eventual promise to switch so arguing over whether Lucid should switch is silly: NACS is quickly becoming the standard in NA whether everyone here likes it or not. CCS1 may be available past 2025 but the user experience will degrade significantly since most vehicles won’t be using it.

In the meantime, Lucid could and should enter into a contract that allows access via an adaptor for now just to give its customers more options. I don’t care what the math is: I will take 50kw charging over a broken EA charger all day every day. Then they can simply make the internal switch to NACS when 1000v charging is widespread enough.

 

[c0mbe]

That "annoying experience" has nothing to do with the plug itself, it's the charger and infrastructure behind it (EA is on its 3rd or 4th iteration of charger and still can't get it right).

I have to disagree. Those of us on this forum have a higher tolerance for beta products. I took delivery of Dream edition #30 in 11/2021 and it barely worked. I was willing to put up with that. I wouldn’t be so sure when it comes to charging.

I know a fair number of people with EVs (20+). Some of them have teslas, Rivians, EQS, etc. The most common complaints I hear for CCS1 are:

“that it’s difficult to articulate the plug into the receiver, sometimes it needs to be tilted and it requires multiple attempts to seat it.” - I do not have this issue with my Lucid, but I agree with this on Rivian/Mercedes. It can be difficult.

“The [DC fast charging] plug requires two hands for smaller people.” This is true at most EA stations, particularly when there is trouble getting the plug to seat correctly.

“implementation is not standard across manufacturers”. Some manufacturers allow the CCS port to unlock automatically when charging is complete. Some rely on the button on the charger. Others require a secondary button on the vehicle to be pressed.

You may think it’s just a plastic and copper, but to every single EV owner I have talked to, they are all thrilled to be moving to NACS. Not one of them has cared about charging speed. It matters to you and me, but not to them. All they care about is convenience, and user experience.

 

[Bill55]

I've heard this sentiment several times, but I disagree with the sentiment. For electric cars, charging it is a significant part of the experience. Plugging in a CCA-1 cable is just annoying. It leads me to have a bad experience, trying to manipulate it ever so slightly to get the angle of this giant connector just right to plug it in.

There are really two parts to this argument.

1: There are more Tesla Supercharger than any other network, and they are more reliable.
2: CCS-1 is just a really annoying connector that leads users to having a bad experience charging their car.

I think this sentiment about it "just being a plug" is totally overlooking the annoying experience of using that plug.

I agree the NACS is a better plug and it will be a better experience once there is just one plug and one communication standard. In the interim, I’ll buy an adaptor as soon as Lucid gets on board.

 

[Adnillien]

I agree the NACS is a better plug and it will be a better experience once there is just one plug and one communication standard. In the interim, I’ll buy an adaptor as soon as Lucid gets on board.

There is already one communication standard. Tesla is use ISO15118 just like CCS.

 

[Bill55]

There is already one communication standard. Tesla is use ISO15118 just like CCS.

Sure, how about once all DC chargers are open to all makes and models.

 

[Tesla2.0]

1 out of 72 NASC stalls are available…

Wait until Leaf and Bolt pile up that queue down the road.

 

[Daniel2022AT]

Let’s widen the lens with a look into the future. Accordingly to a study by S&P Global Mobility published 1/23, by 2030 there will need to be 172,000 Level 3 fast chargers in the USA. What is that, like 8x today? OK that’s probably unrealistic and EV growth probably will be slower than planned. It does create a breathtaking vision of how much the fast charging network will need to grow which also reminds us this industry is still in its infancy. I find it very exciting.

I personally don’t care about the connector. CCS works just fine. I do care very much about charge speed and reliability. EA has actually worked very well for me for the occasional road trip. I also care that availability keeps up with the EV fleet growth.

 

[Haggy]

I tried this argument, but apparently you need to be an electrical engineer to weigh-in/or understand why high-voltage charging is superior. My arguments were ultimately deleted but I’ll restate it: user experience is equally as important as the software and technical details. When it comes to the general public, it is usually more important.

In any case, Tesla WILL 100% offer 1000v charging. None of these automakers would have entered into an agreement without an eventual promise to switch so arguing over whether Lucid should switch is silly: NACS is quickly becoming the standard in NA whether everyone here likes it or not. CCS1 may be available past 2025 but the user experience will degrade significantly since most vehicles won’t be using it.

In the meantime, Lucid could and should enter into a contract that allows access via an adaptor for now just to give its customers more options. I don’t care what the math is: I will take 50kw charging over a broken EA charger all day every day. Then they can simply make the internal switch to NACS when 1000v charging is widespread enough.

If Lucid announced that they will plan to move to NACS when either V4 Superchargers are widespread or most CCS stations have added NACS plugs, it would go a long way. For those who don't understand, it's hurting Lucid and a lot of people think that they are being stubborn, anti-Elon, etc. If they made it clear that they would do this, but not at the expense of hurting customers, a road map would keep potential customers from not looking at Lucid because of this.

Also, converting might not quite be a moot point, but a less important one if Tesla rolls out V4 chargers with magic docks, longer cables and 1000V. If they do that as opposed to retrofitting older chargers, then it won't be a big loss for many people if Lucid doesn't jump on board with a port change. I assume that many of us do most charging at home and even on a long road trip, if I had to use a Supercharger with a slight extra piece of an adapter attaching itself, I wouldn't mind. Then adapters wouldn't matter so much until NACS is so ubiquitous that CCS plugs get phased out and an adapter belonging to the car owner is needed.

 

[Haggy]

“The [DC fast charging] plug requires two hands for smaller people.” This is true at most EA stations, particularly when there is trouble getting the plug to seat correctly.

It's also a potential issue with NACS. When I moved from Tesla's UMC to a wall connector, the thicker cable made it harder for my wife, who had to get used to messages about the plug not being fully inserted. It's also going to need two hands for some people, depending on the weight of the cable. I can't say from experience how well she'd do with CCS.

 

[hydbob]

If Lucid announced that they will plan to move to NACS when either V4 Superchargers are widespread or most CCS stations have added NACS plugs, it would go a long way. For those who don't understand, it's hurting Lucid and a lot of people think that they are being stubborn, anti-Elon, etc. If they made it clear that they would do this, but not at the expense of hurting customers, a road map would keep potential customers from not looking at Lucid because of this.

Also, converting might not quite be a moot point, but a less important one if Tesla rolls out V4 chargers with magic docks, longer cables and 1000V. If they do that as opposed to retrofitting older chargers, then it won't be a big loss for many people if Lucid doesn't jump on board with a port change. I assume that many of us do most charging at home and even on a long road trip, if I had to use a Supercharger with a slight extra piece of an adapter attaching itself, I wouldn't mind. Then adapters wouldn't matter so much until NACS is so ubiquitous that CCS plugs get phased out and an adapter belonging to the car owner is needed.

I still haven't seen any proof Tesla is able to provide chargers through the NACS connector at 800v with decent speed. The assumption is they will eventually, but they haven't proven anything yet.

The flip side is definitely available options at 50kw, but that's so abysmally slow, it would definitely be a last last resort, and I don't think it's worth making that deal for that option currently.

 

[Haggy]

I still haven't seen any proof Tesla is able to provide chargers through the NACS connector at 800v with decent speed. The assumption is they will eventually, but they haven't proven anything yet.

The flip side is definitely available options at 50kw, but that's so abysmally slow, it would definitely be a last last resort, and I don't think it's worth making that deal for that option currently.

It's true that they haven't but then again, with a network of zero V4 chargers in the US, I'd say that it's not the biggest concern yet. They need to have a network and while they boast about size of their network, the size is zero for those who want to charge above 50kW with a car that needs higher voltage.

 

[hydbob]

It's true that they haven't but then again, with a network of zero V4 chargers in the US, I'd say that it's not the biggest concern yet. They need to have a network and while they boast about size of their network, the size is zero for those who want to charge above 50kW with a car that needs higher voltage.

They don't even have working V4 chargers anywhere in the world right now

 

[invalidname]

Lucid ultimately has no control over that, so it's a moot point and speculation at best regarding V4 chargers at this point.

What Lucid does have control over, that nobody seems to talk about, is upgrading their Wunderbox to enable charging speeds above the abysmal 50kwh at 400v as either an add-on or new gen