NACS (Tesla adapter) versus CCS Megathread

[Tâm]

Mercedes-Benz Expands Charging Options for Customers: Access to Tesla Supercharger Network in North America While Building Its Own High-Power Charging Network

Mercedes-Benz EVs can use Tesla Superchargers in North America from 2024, and Mercedes-Benz's own charging network to implement NACS standard.

www.businesswire.com

And now Mercedes...though they will continue to build out their own network, at least for now...

Their 800V MMA platform is slowed down in a 400V stations like a V3 Supercharger and below.

7 benefits of the Mercedes MMA platform arriving in 2024

The Mercedes MMA is a dedicated electric skateboard that is set to change the dynamics of next-gen entry-level and mid-range Mercedes-Benz EVs.

topelectricsuv.com

This deal will cost them some money because they will add NACS ports to their existing plan of CCS Mercedes me Charge Service.

It's a good deal that doesn’t take away already planned CCS Mercedes me Charge Service to calm the fear of CCS extinction.

The downside is slow 400V Superchargers but that doesn't change whether there's a deal or not until V4 Superchargers come out.

The deal is an expansion of access, not a reduction of access so it's a good news for those who worry about CCS extinction. An adapter will be provided in 2024 but its price is unknown.

 

[Bill55]

Their 800V MMA platform is slowed down in a 400V stations like a V3 Supercharger and below.

7 benefits of the Mercedes MMA platform arriving in 2024

The Mercedes MMA is a dedicated electric skateboard that is set to change the dynamics of next-gen entry-level and mid-range Mercedes-Benz EVs.

topelectricsuv.com

This deal will cost them some money because they will add NACS ports to their existing plan of CCS Mercedes me Charge Service.

It's a good deal that doesn’t take away already planned CCS Mercedes me Charge Service to calm the fear of CCS extinction.

The downside is slow 400V Superchargers but that doesn't change whether there's a deal or not until V4 Superchargers come out.

The deal is an expansion of access, not a reduction of access so it's a good news for those who worry about CCS extinction. An adapter will be provided in 2024 but its price is unknown.

I’m on a road trip and we needed to stop for lunch. Rather than make 2 stops to charge at an EA station surrounded by acres of Walmart parking, we stopped at a mall, had a sit down lunch, walked around for a little bit. Used a EVgo charger. App worked seamlessly, charged about an hour at a 50kW charger. Perfect. Most of the EA locations I’ve been to, it is too far and too dangerous in many locations to walk to anything other than Walmart. Being able to have a nice lunch and do some window shopping, did not detract from our trip, it was a nice break. Time to charge to 80% for a 50kW is not 7 times a 350 or 3 times a 150. Trying to replicate gas stations ignores the important advantage for EVs of charging while you do things you want or need to do anyway. A very significant portion of my charging over 22k miles has happened while I sleep. Including road trips. If I could choose 1000 new 350kW stations or 7000 50kW stations not at Wallmart. Give me the 7000 50kW. Hopefully at Restaurants and Starbucks that are still close to the freeway.

 

[quantum]

It's Tesla's world and everyone else is just living in it. It's like they own 60% of the gas stations in the country, and 85% of the reliable ones. If other cars have difficulty on their network, what do they care? It just makes you more likely to buy one of the 20 million cars a year they want to sell. If Lucid can only charge at 50 kw, why would you buy a lucid when you can get a model S for 60k less, charge 5x as fast, the Tesla charging network is expanding every second (vs. EA, which I have seen very few new chargers outside of really high EV areas, basically CA and the NE). Tesla is eating everyone's lunch.

Thats where you are wrong. Tesla has inferior EV technology. No V2L, V2H, slower speeds for anything geater than 500v technology. Its just a plug!! They are just leveraging theor charging network to prolong the relevancy of 400V technology. There are many Tesla haters ( those who hate Elon Musk or been burne by Tesla quality or fed up with Tesla quality ) who will seek out other luxury EV's. They will flock to Lucid, and maybe some to Merc, Audi, BMW. But Lucid beats them all in range, handling, ride, space, efficiency. Don't know why everyone is going ding dong over a PLUG!

Lucid should strongly consider NACS if it makes sense, but don't do it just because every Tom Dick and Harry who has inferior EV tech ( Ex. Mercedes) goes ahead.

Imagine if PIF buys Chargepoint or EV GO and pumps billions into a more efficient widespread supercharger system!

 

[Tâm]

...inferior EV tech ( Ex. Mercedes) goes ahead...

Don't forget the GM Ultium platform which may be inferior but it is 800V to 400V backward compatible is very nice at the charging speed of 350 kW for 800V and 250 kW for 400V stations (that's current Superchargers as well).

Charging systems from Lucid and Mercedes may be superior but the backward compatibility cannot match the 250 kW charging speed from GM Ultium.

...Don't know why everyone is going ding dong over a PLUG!...

Yes, the plug is smaller and looks the same for both AC and DC but what most companies and owners are after is access. If Superchargers don't have NACS and only have a Chinese GB/T plug in the US, people will still want to switch to that Chinese GB/T plug because of access.

 

[Rob Stark]

Thats where you are wrong. Tesla has inferior EV technology. No V2L, V2H, slower speeds for anything geater than 500v technology. Its just a plug!! They are just leveraging theor charging network to prolong the relevancy of 400V technology. There are many Tesla haters ( those who hate Elon Musk or been burne by Tesla quality or fed up with Tesla quality ) who will seek out other luxury EV's. They will flock to Lucid, and maybe some to Merc, Audi, BMW. But Lucid beats them all in range, handling, ride, space, efficiency. Don't know why everyone is going ding dong over a PLUG!

Lucid should strongly consider NACS if it makes sense, but don't do it just because every Tom Dick and Harry who has inferior EV tech ( Ex. Mercedes) goes ahead.

Imagine if PIF buys Chargepoint or EV GO and pumps billions into a more efficient widespread supercharger system!

EV tech can't be reduced to simply voltage. Although that is an important metric.

In any case, the imminent release of Cybertruck will likely reveal a battery pack close to 1000v.

BTW I don't dream of the Saudi's owning the American vehicle fueling infrastructure of the future.

 

[quantum]

Don't forget the GM Ultium platform which may be inferior but it is 800V to 400V backward compatible is very nice at the charging speed of 350 kW for 800V and 250 kW for 400V stations (that's current Superchargers as well).

Charging systems from Lucid and Mercedes may be superior but the backward compatibility cannot match the 250 kW charging speed from GM Ultium.


Yes, the plug is smaller and looks the same for both AC and DC but what most companies and owners are after is access. If Superchargers don't have NACS and only have a Chinese GB/T plug in the US, people will still want to switch to that Chinese GB/T plug because of access.

Backward compatibility with 400V is going backwards. If Tesla went to CCS, it would allow more compatibility and not change a thing! meaning its just a plug!. But I understand why Tesla is leveraging its charging " plug ". Its a leverage to make their 400V technology more relevant while some manufacturers moved on to 700-900V technology. Its just a plug and everyone is going gaga over it. Peter is right about that.

 

[Tâm]

...If Tesla went to CCS, it would allow more compatibility and not change a thing! meaning its just a plug!...

Yes. NACS is CCS1 compatible except for the form factor--a plug.

But I understand why Tesla is leveraging its charging " plug ". Its a leverage to make their 400V technology more relevant while some manufacturers moved on to 700-900V technology.

Yes. NEVI requires 920V whether in the form factor of big or small, the future is coming whether Tesla wants to keep its 400V stations or not.

However, there are very few 800V but many 400V stations out there so it's wise to take advantage of today while waiting for the future.

Its just a plug and everyone is going gaga over it. Peter is right about that.

I am not sure what's the disadvantage for consumers if they get a simplified form factor of 1 look for both AC and DC with smaller and nicer plug.

A brick cellphone functioned well but others thought a smaller form factor might get more customers and now the brick cellphone is extinct.

Maybe CCS camp should learn from history, especially today's history of big CCS plug vs small NASC plug.

 

[quantum]

EV tech can't be reduced to simply voltage. Although that is an important metric.

In any case, the imminent release of Cybertruck will likely reveal a battery pack close to 1000v.

BTW I don't dream of the Saudi's owning the American vehicle fueling infrastructure of the future

By the time tesla starts installing a sufficient number of 1000V compatibility chargers, continents would be redrawn. You know how long that takes!

Yes. NACS is CCS1 compatible except for the form factor--a plug.

Yes. NEVI requires 920V whether in the form factor of big or small, the future is coming whether Tesla wants to keep its 400V stations or not.

However, there are very few 800V but many 400V stations out there so it's wise to take advantage of today while waiting for the future.


I am not sure what's the disadvantage for consumers if they get a simplified form factor of 1 look for both AC and DC with smaller and nicer plug.

A brick cellphone functioned well but others thought a smaller form factor might get more customers and now the brick cellphone is extinct.

Maybe CCS camp should learn from history, especially today's history of big CCS plug vs small NASC plug.

I've had no issues using a CCS plug, its not like we hold onto it like a cellphone. People are making a small irrelevant issue into a big one. Yes, Tesla is smaller, so what? CCS is not hard to use either. Slightly bigger form factor so what is the big deal....."its just a plug"

NACS is a way for companies with inferior EV technology, less desirable cars to make their cars more desirable.

 

[Bunnylebowski]

The reliability of NACS thus far is a legitimate argument in favor of that standard though. When an EA station goes down, which is frequent, it’s a VERY long time before they’re repaired. And if they need a software update, that incomprehensibly takes a shockingly long time, also weeks to months. It’s not that I think one plug is superior to another, it’s that I have no confidence in the ability of the most common CCS company, EA, to improve station uptime. Honestly I just don’t think they know what they’re doing. Like @Bill55 said, I’ll take a super reliable 50kw EVGo charger over a frustrating EA, and if we can only ever do 50kw on Tesla, well that’s annoying too, but would be nice to have that as a backup if there’s no EVGo/Chargepoint etc nearby and EA is being EA with 2/4 stations working and one of them being nerfed.

But still, the cable doesn’t reach the Lucid so it’s still the LEAST desirable DC fast charger out of anything, even if Lucid put the plug in the car tomorrow. Out of Spec and @OutofSpecDave have made some valid points for their use case of how they drive, which is frequent long trips, usually 50% down to 3% SOC. In that situation, charging speed and reliability becomes a hugely important factor. I don’t think it’s unreasonable for them to have criticisms in that situation of the car and DCFC network reliability. They’re going to compare a Taycan and Lucid soon driving how they do, which should be very interesting since the Lucid had higher peak kw but the Taycan sustains at 270kw longer. I suspect that IF you charge on the same charger and it’s working optimally, the Lucid should still be quicker from point A to B with charging in between due to the Taycan having worse efficiency and smaller battery, but I’m looking forward to seeing the results. For the average driver though, most are not going to road trip that way, so charging speed becomes less of a factor. Reliability still matters though, I’ll take EVGo 10 times out of 10 if there’s one available over EA.

 

[Cosmo Cruz]

I was about to ask Bunny why he's talking me out of driving up for his organized tour; to say I've never had an issue with EA. Then I remembered that the last time I went to my local 150kW EA chargers there was a tech working on it. Before it always gave me expected rates and finished (at 80%) above 70kW, but last time I went I specifically went to the unit he was working on, and it barely made 52 kW to start. I waited a few minutes to see if it would go up, but no. So I moved to another charger in the same bank, and same same. All of them used to deliver 130kW or so initially. So the 'repair" made them worse. Now I drive another 10 miles to the 350 EA chargers, and start well over 220 kW...finish above 80kW. However, again I saw one being "worked on". So a week later I went back to check: yep, it's "out of service".

If I were paranoid I'd say EA is not just ignoring them, they are deliberately "downgrading" their chargers,

 

[Alex]

First NACS TO CCS1 adapter “available”:

Montreal's A2Z EV develops first NACS adapter

A2Z EV has developed the world’s first NACS (North American Charging Standard) adapter for electric vehicles (EVs). The Montreal-based company became the first to release a CCS1 to NACS adapter to the mass market last […]

driveteslacanada.ca

Only $308:

A2Z EV Shop - EV Accessories - Charging Adapters - Charging Stations

A2Z EV is simply one of the most trusted companies for your EV charging accessories such as charging adapters. With our 7 years in business and over 25,000 customers worldwide, A2Z Canada Inc. is recognized as a leader in the automotive industry.

a2zevshop.com

 

[DeaneG]

" According to Mueller, the other OEMs have plenty of work to do before 2024. "I know that these car manufacturers that are testing NACS now, they have a lot of interruptions of the charging session—nearly 50 percent. And you have to fix that. If you don't fix it, you don't need NACS," Mueller explained."

Our big unanswered questions about the switch to Tesla-style EV plugs

Will non-Teslas fit at Superchargers, and what about 3rd-party networks?

arstechnica.com

 

[Tâm]

" According to Mueller, the other OEMs have plenty of work to do before 2024. "I know that these car manufacturers that are testing NACS now, they have a lot of interruptions of the charging session—nearly 50 percent. And you have to fix that. If you don't fix it, you don't need NACS," Mueller explained."

Our big unanswered questions about the switch to Tesla-style EV plugs

Will non-Teslas fit at Superchargers, and what about 3rd-party networks?

arstechnica.com

In Youtube, I only noticed Hyundai/Kia issues probably because the 400V Tesla Supercharger would shut itself down to protect itself when the cars kept asking for 800V earlier this year. That 400V incompatible issue seems to be resolved past several months thanks to the cars' firmware update over the air.

The remaining issues are still there:

1. Short cable
2. 50kW slow

 

[Bobby]

In Youtube, I only noticed Hyundai/Kia issues probably because the 400V Tesla Supercharger would shut itself down to protect itself when the cars kept asking for 800V earlier this year. That 400V incompatible issue seems to be resolved past several months thanks to the cars' firmware update over the air.

The remaining issues are still there:

1. Short cable
2. 50kW slow

Those were always the issues.

 

[Tâm]

...NACS is a way for companies with inferior EV technology, less desirable cars to make their cars more desirable.

From the article:

SAE wants to certify NACS by end of year, and fix plug & charge too

SAE has voted unanimously to form a task force to expedite its NACS standardization process, and thinks that this process...

electrek.co

1) NACS 277V AC

J1772 can go up to 240V AC, but NACS can reach 277V AC. A business with 480V 3-phase power can use higher 277V AC speed charging without additional expensive transformers. Great for parking lots, apartments...

2) Plug-and-charge:

European CCS2 goes smoother because of effective plug-and-charge implementation with Hubect company in charge.

The US CCS1 plug-and-charge ISO 15118 has been here since 2014 or almost a decade, but it has gone nowhere due to the fragmentation of implementation.

SAE thinks the Tesla plug-and-charge should be considered in this new standardization process since its success began in 2012 and solve this issue for once.

 

[Adnillien]

1) NACS 277V AC

J1772 can go up to 240V AC, but NACS can reach 277V AC. A business with 480V 3-phase power can use higher 277V AC speed charging without additional expensive transformers. Great for parking lots, apartments...

There are not too many apartments or residential areas with 3-phase power so probably not a factor to consider.

The US CCS1 plug-and-charge ISO 15118 has been here since 2014 or almost a decade, but it has gone nowhere due to the fragmentation of implementation.

Tesla plug and charge communication is based on ISO15518, hence NACS does not change plug-and-charge.

 

[DeaneG]

We're in the middle of the big reckoning for improving plug-and-charge's reliability / interoperability. Now Tesla's implementation is in the mix too.

 

[HariK]

We're in the middle of the big reckoning for improving plug-and-charge's reliability / interoperability. Now Tesla's implementation is in the mix too.

Yes. Tesla had basically 2 models 3/y and s/x to Qa their superchargers. Once the variety grows, we will see lot of interoperability issues at tesla. I will go to evgo or charge point before I go to tesla to charge lucid if EA does not work

 

[Alex]

J1772 can go up to 240V AC, but NACS can reach 277V AC. A business with 480V 3-phase power can use higher 277V AC speed charging without additional expensive transformers.

The problem is not the plug per se, but what voltage a car can accept. Yes, Tesla can accept 277V. I've done this before on my old 2012 Model S – but it was actually a J1772 EVS with J1772 plug using a Tesla J1772 to NACS adapter. The J1772 plugs are rated for 240V typically as per the standard, but the Max current is more of a factor. I would be curious to see how a Lucid would handle the 277V on a J1772 plug.

 

[Tâm]

Yes. Tesla had basically 2 models 3/y and s/x to Qa their superchargers. Once the variety grows, we will see lot of interoperability issues at tesla. I will go to evgo or charge point before I go to tesla to charge lucid if EA does not work

Youtubers already saw the interoperability issues with Hyundai/Kia but it was fixed within a few months. Otherwise, other brands, including Lucid, have interfaced well with NACS at a Magic Dock without a hiccup except for short cable and slower 400V charge.