mi/$ not that great in CA for EVs?

[Rob Stark]

Where?

 

[HariK]

True. This is a CA thread. Thousands, potentially, for those of us in states without incentives.

But CA has much higher electricity prices than most states without incentive. Also in most states the labor rate is much less and the EVSE prices are falling.

 

[mxp]

March 1, 2025 PGE pricing for reference: https://www.pge.com/assets/pge/docs/account/rate-plans/residential-electric-rate-plan-pricing.pdf
(prices have gone up...)

We did some calculations for commuting costs in our household EV versus Gas vehicle: (long reading)

Our 2021 Toyota Venza Hybrid does 42 mpg, and we pay ~$4 per gallon Costco reg gas prices. Just say 40 miles cost me around $4.
The 2024 Lucid Air Pure does 4.9 mi/kWh, so at 0.36cents kWh, well lets just say 5 mi x 8 = 40 miles, so 0.36c x 8 = $2.88 cost.
[The exact calc is 42/4.9=8.57 ; so multiply 0.36cents x 8.57 = $3.08 cost]

So, EV versus Gas vehicle is $3 vs $4 for 40 miles, in our household.

Recently did an experiment: I usually run my car down to ~30 miles before I charge. So for the experiment, I went down to ~2 miles left of the 90kWh battery and charged it to 100%
When I looked at my PGE online daily usage displayed in (kWh or cost views), I can see 6.12kWh consumed per hour, or if flipped to Cost view, is $2.20 per hour. So, in my case, it's 0.36 cents per kWh as calculated by PGE. By adding up all the hourly "bars" I can see it cost me ~$27 to fully charge my car.

In summary, the weekly cost of our commute:
It costs me $27 in electricity cost to "fill" up once a week.
It costs my wife $40 to "fill" up her Venza once a week.

Purely looking from a cost benefit standpoint: In California, and in the next 10 years, I wonder if it's all worth it owning an EV. Over the years, gasoline prices have come down and seems to have stabilized. Electricity costs have gone up tremendously and I don't see it ever coming down.

14 years ago, at the old PG&E "E9B" rates (yes, I have a 2nd meter); I was at 6 cents per kWh and owned 2 2011 nissan leafs for our commuting. It was definitely worth it back then. I can't say it's the same now.

 

[momo3605]

March 1, 2025 PGE pricing for reference: https://www.pge.com/assets/pge/docs/account/rate-plans/residential-electric-rate-plan-pricing.pdf
(prices have gone up...)

We did some calculations for commuting costs in our household EV versus Gas vehicle: (long reading)

Our 2021 Toyota Venza Hybrid does 42 mpg, and we pay ~$4 per gallon Costco reg gas prices. Just say 40 miles cost me around $4.
The 2024 Lucid Air Pure does 4.9 mi/kWh, so at 0.36cents kWh, well lets just say 5 mi x 8 = 40 miles, so 0.36c x 8 = $2.88 cost.
[The exact calc is 42/4.9=8.57 ; so multiply 0.36cents x 8.57 = $3.08 cost]

So, EV versus Gas vehicle is $3 vs $4 for 40 miles, in our household.

Recently did an experiment: I usually run my car down to ~30 miles before I charge. So for the experiment, I went down to ~2 miles left of the 90kWh battery and charged it to 100%
When I looked at my PGE online daily usage displayed in (kWh or cost views), I can see 6.12kWh consumed per hour, or if flipped to Cost view, is $2.20 per hour. So, in my case, it's 0.36 cents per kWh as calculated by PGE. By adding up all the hourly "bars" I can see it cost me ~$27 to fully charge my car.

In summary, the weekly cost of our commute:
It costs me $27 in electricity cost to "fill" up once a week.
It costs my wife $40 to "fill" up her Venza once a week.

Purely looking from a cost benefit standpoint: In California, and in the next 10 years, I wonder if it's all worth it owning an EV. Over the years, gasoline prices have come down and seems to have stabilized. Electricity costs have gone up tremendously and I don't see it ever coming down.

14 years ago, at the old PG&E "E9B" rates (yes, I have a 2nd meter); I was at 6 cents per kWh and owned 2 2011 nissan leafs for our commuting. It was definitely worth it back then. I can't say it's the same now.

Looks like off-peak for EV-2A dropped to 31 cents off peak. I think it was 34 or 36 cents before?

I could be way off though lol

 

[borski]

Hm, considering switching to E-ELEC now. With solar and batteries, that may make the most sense, since I'd get paid retail rate for any solar I send back during peak, and I wouldn't use the grid during peak.

 

[DeaneG]

We're on E-ELEC: off peak $0.35 in winter, $0.40 in summer. Roughly 10 cents per mile in our Air, or the equivalent of a 50mpg car with 819 hp. I drive electric because it's just a lot nicer experience than ICE.

 

[mxp]

Looks like off-peak for EV-2A dropped to 31 cents off peak. I think it was 34 or 36 cents before?

I could be way off though lol

No changes at all to EV-2A. It's still 31 cents off peak.
Big changes to EV-B
Summer: 33c --> 37c
Winter: 30c --> 34c

 

[DeaneG]

Due to a recent PV installation, we are on E-ELEC for electricity we buy, but are reimbursed at NBT rates for excess electricity we sell. NBT rates, which are based off wholesale costs to purchase generated power, can be as low as one-tenth of a cent per kWh at certain times for certain months (the red area in picture below), thanks to the large amount of solar PV installed in the western part of the USA. I imagine costs will someday go negative as it has from time to time in Europe - you'll be paid to use power.

We generate a far amount of excess PV power most days of the year and I'm careful to dump this into our EVs rather than letting it flow to the grid far too cheaply. Since I'd make very little by selling it to PG&E, how much does the power cost me to charge my cars? I'm not motivated enough to figure out my amortized cost per kWh for PV energy for my system's expected lifetime, or mine!

 

[mxp]

Due to a recent PV installation, we are on E-ELEC for electricity we buy, but are reimbursed at NBT rates for excess electricity we sell. NBT rates, which are based off wholesale costs to purchase generated power, can be as low as one-tenth of a cent per kWh at certain times for certain months (the red area in picture below), thanks to the large amount of solar PV installed in the western part of the USA. I imagine costs will someday go negative as it has from time to time in Europe - you'll be paid to use power.

We generate a far amount of excess PV power most days of the year and I'm careful to dump this into our EVs rather than letting it flow to the grid far too cheaply. Since I'd make very little by selling it to PG&E, how much does the power cost me to charge my cars? I'm not motivated enough to figure out my amortized cost per kWh for PV energy for my system's expected lifetime, or mine!

View attachment 27114

Last year, did you get any credits back from PGE at True Up?
My current understanding is that if at True Up, and your bill is "Net Zero" then you did well. In essense, you used up all the energy you produced annually and PGE didn't have to give you (at their lousy rates) any credits for sending energy back into the grid.

For any of you here who have massive solar PV systems and unable to consume (or store) all that you produce, have you ever let your friends/neighbors who own EVs stop by and get a free charge from your system?? ;-)

I think, it's just better to 'giveaway' the energy to friends/neighbors than to sell it back to PGE.

 

[DeaneG]

Last year, did you get any credits back from PGE at True Up?
My current understanding is that if at True Up, and your bill is "Net Zero" then you did well. In essense, you used up all the energy you produced annually and PGE didn't have to give you (at their lousy rates) any credits for sending energy back into the grid.

For any of you here who have massive solar PV systems and unable to consume (or store) all that you produce, have you ever let your friends/neighbors who own EVs stop by and get a free charge from your system?? ;-)

I think, it's just better to 'giveaway' the energy to friends/neighbors than to sell it back to PGE.

The cost to buy electricity from PG&E or sell it to them is calculated hourly for the net kWh imported or exported (bought or sold) during that hour. It would be normal and expected to have to pay PG&E a substantial amount at true up, even though the home is energy net neutral or positive. For example, if I net imported (bought) one kWh at 1pm at $0.66, and net exported (sold) one KWh at 2pm for $0.04, I'd owe PG&E 42 cents for those two hours later in the year at true-up, even though overall it was energy neutral.

 

[momo3605]

Hm, considering switching to E-ELEC now. With solar and batteries, that may make the most sense, since I'd get paid retail rate for any solar I send back during peak, and I wouldn't use the grid during peak.

E-ELEC makes most sense if you have heat pump for winter months. Otherwise no point. Most of us on E-ELEC are forced onto it because of NEM3

 

[borski]

E-ELEC makes most sense if you have heat pump for winter months. Otherwise no point. Most of us on E-ELEC are forced onto it because of NEM3

No heat pump, but heat pump water heater. The only gas in my house is my 2-stage furnace and my gas stove (but electric oven).

I just did some basic math and even EV2-A seems better for me than E-TOU-C, at least partially because I have Medical Baseline, and instead of additional baseline, both EV2-A and E-ELEC get a 12% discount on the bundled rates instead, since those rates don't have a baseline.

 

[Lucken]

Our 2021 Toyota Venza Hybrid does 42 mpg, and we pay ~$4 per gallon Costco reg gas prices. Just say 40 miles cost me around $4.
The 2024 Lucid Air Pure does 4.9 mi/kWh, so at 0.36cents kWh, well lets just say 5 mi x 8 = 40 miles, so 0.36c x 8 = $2.88 cost.
[The exact calc is 42/4.9=8.57 ; so multiply 0.36cents x 8.57 = $3.08 cost]

So, EV versus Gas vehicle is $3 vs $4 for 40 miles, in our household.

Recently did an experiment: I usually run my car down to ~30 miles before I charge. So for the experiment, I went down to ~2 miles left of the 90kWh battery and charged it to 100%
When I looked at my PGE online daily usage displayed in (kWh or cost views), I can see 6.12kWh consumed per hour, or if flipped to Cost view, is $2.20 per hour. So, in my case, it's 0.36 cents per kWh as calculated by PGE. By adding up all the hourly "bars" I can see it cost me ~$27 to fully charge my car.

In summary, the weekly cost of our commute:
It costs me $27 in electricity cost to "fill" up once a week.
It costs my wife $40 to "fill" up her Venza once a week.

Purely looking from a cost benefit standpoint: In California, and in the next 10 years, I wonder if it's all worth it owning an EV. Over the years, gasoline prices have come down and seems to have stabilized. Electricity costs have gone up tremendously and I don't see it ever coming down.

14 years ago, at the old PG&E "E9B" rates (yes, I have a 2nd meter); I was at 6 cents per kWh and owned 2 2011 nissan leafs for our commuting. It was definitely worth it back then. I can't say it's the same now.

My lifetime efficiency is pretty great on my AWD Pure, but an assumption of an average of 4.9 mi/kWh seems a bit overly optimistic in this calculation.

 

[Andretex]

March 1, 2025 PGE pricing for reference: https://www.pge.com/assets/pge/docs/account/rate-plans/residential-electric-rate-plan-pricing.pdf
(prices have gone up...)

We did some calculations for commuting costs in our household EV versus Gas vehicle: (long reading)

Our 2021 Toyota Venza Hybrid does 42 mpg, and we pay ~$4 per gallon Costco reg gas prices. Just say 40 miles cost me around $4.
The 2024 Lucid Air Pure does 4.9 mi/kWh, so at 0.36cents kWh, well lets just say 5 mi x 8 = 40 miles, so 0.36c x 8 = $2.88 cost.
[The exact calc is 42/4.9=8.57 ; so multiply 0.36cents x 8.57 = $3.08 cost]

So, EV versus Gas vehicle is $3 vs $4 for 40 miles, in our household.

Recently did an experiment: I usually run my car down to ~30 miles before I charge. So for the experiment, I went down to ~2 miles left of the 90kWh battery and charged it to 100%
When I looked at my PGE online daily usage displayed in (kWh or cost views), I can see 6.12kWh consumed per hour, or if flipped to Cost view, is $2.20 per hour. So, in my case, it's 0.36 cents per kWh as calculated by PGE. By adding up all the hourly "bars" I can see it cost me ~$27 to fully charge my car.

In summary, the weekly cost of our commute:
It costs me $27 in electricity cost to "fill" up once a week.
It costs my wife $40 to "fill" up her Venza once a week.

Purely looking from a cost benefit standpoint: In California, and in the next 10 years, I wonder if it's all worth it owning an EV. Over the years, gasoline prices have come down and seems to have stabilized. Electricity costs have gone up tremendously and I don't see it ever coming down.

14 years ago, at the old PG&E "E9B" rates (yes, I have a 2nd meter); I was at 6 cents per kWh and owned 2 2011 nissan leafs for our commuting. It was definitely worth it back then. I can't say it's the same now.

Ok. Great. Your super luxury Super fast car that is fully electric is slightly more efficient than a low cost cheap hybrid.

Most of us compare the efficiency of a Lucid with similar cars we owned before. I had a 7 series bmw and I can assure you, Lucid Air energy costs about 20% of the cost of gas.

Just saying … your comparison is not that relevant. Don't want to sound too negative.

 

[DeaneG]

Another aspect is that I'd drive electric even if it cost more than ICE - it's just a much nicer daily driving experience.
The only thing ICE does better is make sports car noises.

 

[jbawden]

Everyone cheers when PG&E is fined for various environmental mistakes but just like politicians promising higher taxes on those "evil" corporations, it's everyday consumers carry the burden of their increased costs of doing business.

 

[Rogue]

Ok. Great. Your super luxury Super fast car that is fully electric is slightly more efficient than a low cost cheap hybrid.

Most of us compare the efficiency of a Lucid with similar cars we owned before. I had a 7 series bmw and I can assure you, Lucid Air energy costs about 20% of the cost of gas.

Just saying … your comparison is not that relevant. Don't want to sound too negative.

This. I tell folks all the time. I could drive the Lucid like a Prius and be more cost efficient when gas exceeds $2.50 for about 10¢ a kWh.

Or... I could drive it like the hyper performance car that it is with an ~30% efficiency penalty. That still smokes a Corvette C8 fully loaded performance that gets 19mpg combined driving it normally (eg. efficiently). I don't even want to know what the mpg would be if driven the same. My guess: single digits.

So mental math. Gas at $2.50 and electricity at 10¢ kWh equates to 50mpg aka Lucid driven efficiently. 30% penalty is 35mpg for Lucid (anecdotal based on my experience, need really, really aggressive driving for 50%). 50% penalty for Corvette (just googled aggressive driving mpg for V8 Corvette aka anecdotal) is ~10mpg. 3.5x further for your money using a car with roughly the same performance as the GT/GT-P/DE-P.

I'll take that deal any day of the week. Sucks to live in CA where electricity is stupid high. Don't know what to tell you other than get solar or an elliptical bike + your muscles to charge the car if it really hurts you in the wallet that much.

 

[Ughwhy]

California is in the top five most expensive states (including Hawaii and Alaska) for electricity according to the "Electric Choice" website https://www.electricchoice.com/electricity-prices-by-state/ Part of what Californians are paying for is the result of "kicking the can down the road" for so long when it comes to maintaining the electrical infrastructure.

Here's that data ranked from cheapest to most expensive. The average price is 13.93 cents /kWh with the median being 12.4.

 

[lpinprov]

That chart is wrong for Rhode Island. Prices (generation + distribution charges) is like $.32/kwh in winter and $.24/kwh in summer. Winter is higher due to large natural gas contribution to generation, and NE nat gas prices rise in winter due to heating demand and limited supply. No consumer TOU plans either.

 

[DeaneG]

California is in the top five most expensive states (including Hawaii and Alaska) for electricity according to the "Electric Choice" website https://www.electricchoice.com/electricity-prices-by-state/ Part of what Californians are paying for is the result of "kicking the can down the road" for so long when it comes to maintaining the electrical infrastructure.

Here's that data ranked from cheapest to most expensive. The average price is 13.93 cents /kWh with the median being 12.4.

View attachment 27145

I'm not sure who in CA is paying 19.4 cents per kWh. I'm paying an average of about 50 cents.