Lucid as a Powerwall alternative.

[changenow]

I'm getting solar panels installed and was thinking of getting two tesla powerwalls. They each have storage capacity of 13.5 kWh. I have a Grand Tour. I am correct to think that when we are able to use our cars to send energy they will be equivalent to about 10 powerwalls? If that is the case I might just get one powerwall and depend on the Lucid for power if we loss power.

 

[Sandvinsd]

I would get the power walls to add some extra storage and, because I am in CA with the highest electric rates in the country, to offset peak electricity usage.

 

[Paladin732]

One thing to consider: A powerwall lets you arbitrage time-of-use plans. Depending on where you live, this could be a sizeable financial difference for electricity usage.

The house we are building in CA, we are putting in 2-3 powerwalls for this very reason. We generate solar during the day and pull from the walls during that time period, then recharge them at night when PGE pays the least.

 

[borski]

One thing to consider: A powerwall lets you arbitrage time-of-use plans. Depending on where you live, this could be a sizeable financial difference for electricity usage.

The house we are building in CA, we are putting in 2-3 powerwalls for this very reason. We generate solar during the day and pull from the walls during that time period, then recharge them at night when PGE pays the least.

Careful: I assume you’re taking the federal tax credit (you should be) and if you are, you can’t recharge from the grid. You’ll have to recharge them in the morning from solar. It’s still fine, because it’s quick depending on how your solar is sized, but that is a rule.

I do the same thing by the way. It only makes sense for me in June-Sept, because In the winter months the difference between peak and off-peak on TOU-C is too small to make sense for discharging the Powerwalls (2 cents / kWh) since there is an efficiency loss anyway.

Also, get on TOU-C with Medical Baseline if you can - Or, if you can’t, use EV-2A.

 

[hydbob]

Careful: I assume you’re taking the federal tax credit (you should be) and if you are, you can’t recharge from the grid. You’ll have to recharge them in the morning from solar. It’s still fine, because it’s quick depending on how your solar is sized, but that is a rule.

I do the same thing by the way. It only makes sense for me in June-Sept, because In the winter months the difference between peak and off-peak on TOU-C is too small to make sense for discharging the Powerwalls (2 cents / kWh) since there is an efficiency loss anyway.

Also, get on TOU-C with Medical Baseline if you can - Or, if you can’t, use EV-2A.

Second this. We were explicitly told in SoCal we are not able to use the battery backup as power and then recharge when rates are low. Thanks Edison!

 

[borski]

Second this. We were explicitly told in SoCal we are not able to use the battery backup as power and then recharge when rates are low. Thanks Edison!

To be clear: on PGE, you absolutely can arbitrage - you just have to recharge it from solar. It’s still off peak, and you’ll sell back at retail rates once the Powerwalls are charged. Then during peak, use the Powerwalls, rinse and repeat.

 

[Paladin732]

To be clear: on PGE, you absolutely can arbitrage - you just have to recharge it from solar. It’s still off peak, and you’ll sell back at retail rates once the Powerwalls are charged. Then during peak, use the Powerwalls, rinse and repeat.

That is my understanding of how it would work. We recharge from solar during the offpeak hours. I may have described it wrong.

Its still awhile away, we are just now breaking ground and have like 6 months of grading/cement work to do. I know that the installer will be setting it all up and desperately hope it gets "applied for" before they decide to enact their terrible new NEM plan (which actually may be DOA)

 

[DeaneG]

To be clear: on PGE, you absolutely can arbitrage - you just have to recharge it from solar. It’s still off peak, and you’ll sell back at retail rates once the Powerwalls are charged. Then during peak, use the Powerwalls, rinse and repeat.

This won't actually pay for powerwalls within their lifespan though, correct?

 

[Tim-in-CA]

To be clear: on PGE, you absolutely can arbitrage - you just have to recharge it from solar. It’s still off peak, and you’ll sell back at retail rates once the Powerwalls are charged. Then during peak, use the Powerwalls, rinse and repeat.

I do exactly this! I use Hubitat and installed Powerwall Manager to automate changing my PW modes from Self powered to Time-based Control between 4PM and 9PM (SCE TOU-B). I found that keeping in Time-based control would result in some odd behavior and cause my home to pull from grid when I didn't want it to. The automation works flawlessly! Now, this being my first year of PV+PW, I was using home charging for my Tesla sparingly until I could determine how much PV excess I will have. With True-up in 2 months I'm approaching 2MwH excess! Next year, for sure I will home charge and crank the AC more! I also think that when the thirstier Rivian arrives, I will also eat up more photons!

 

[Boomer AZ]

First, why do you want energy storage in your home? Purely backup? Or, backup and to use during peak hours? I have 12.4kW of solar panels and two powerwalls. Remember that 1 powerwall has peak output power of 5 kW. If you are on backup with a single PW and an AC unit kicks in while you have the toaster going, the powerwall shuts down. The best thing about a PW is the gateway. You should study it’s functionality.

if all you want is emergency long term power, then maybe using Lucid’s battery makes sense. If you have anything that requires seamless power through a power interruption, or you never want to draw power during peak hours, then you need a properly designed standalone energy storage system.

I feel too many people are getting all excited by Lucid’s ability to supply power without having any clue on how a properly designed energy storage backup system works. I don’t think of Lucid as a backup system. It is an emergency source of power during long term outages.

Does anyone know what the maximum continuous output power of Lucid is?

I had 2 powerwalls installed. After installation I decided I wanted a 3rd one. Tesla won’t do it!

Another eye opener for me was how the backup systems work while the grid is down. Solar recharges the batteries and supplies the home. Once the batteries are recharged, then the solar is shutdown. The house then draws down the battery to some point, then the solar turns back on to charge the batteries.

 

[borski]

This won't actually pay for powerwalls within their lifespan though, correct?

Sure does, when the costs of energy at my home were as high as they were.

 

[borski]

First, why do you want energy storage in your home? Purely backup? Or, backup and to use during peak hours? I have 12.4kW of solar panels and two powerwalls. Remember that 1 powerwall has peak output power of 5 kW. If you are on backup with a single PW and an AC unit kicks in while you have the toaster going, the powerwall shuts down. The best thing about a PW is the gateway. You should study it’s functionality.

if all you want is emergency long term power, then maybe using Lucid’s battery makes sense. If you have anything that requires seamless power through a power interruption, or you never want to draw power during peak hours, then you need a properly designed standalone energy storage system.

I feel too many people are getting all excited by Lucid’s ability to supply power without having any clue on how a properly designed energy storage backup system works. I don’t think of Lucid as a backup system. It is an emergency source of power during long term outages.

Does anyone know what the maximum continuous output power of Lucid is?

I had 2 powerwalls installed. After installation I decided I wanted a 3rd one. Tesla won’t do it!

Another eye opener for me was how the backup systems work while the grid is down. Solar recharges the batteries and supplies the home. Once the batteries are recharged, then the solar is shutdown. The house then draws down the battery to some point, then the solar turns back on to charge the batteries.

This is better if you install sure starts on your ACs, but yeah, I have four Powerwalls because I didn’t want to upgrade later. (And absurd usage due to the house being formerly owned by commercial electricians)

 

[DeaneG]

Sure does, when the costs of energy at my home were as high as they were.

Oh, good news. I must live a few miles from you, same energy costs - Foothill @ Stevens Creek area.

 

[Boomer AZ]

This is better if you install sure starts on your ACs, but yeah, I have four Powerwalls because I didn’t want to upgrade later. (And absurd usage due to the house being formerly owned by commercial electricians)

Yup, Tesla installed soft starts on all 4 of my HVACs.

 

[changenow]

First, why do you want energy storage in your home? Purely backup? Or, backup and to use during peak hours? I have 12.4kW of solar panels and two powerwalls. Remember that 1 powerwall has peak output power of 5 kW. If you are on backup with a single PW and an AC unit kicks in while you have the toaster going, the powerwall shuts down. The best thing about a PW is the gateway. You should study it’s functionality.

if all you want is emergency long term power, then maybe using Lucid’s battery makes sense. If you have anything that requires seamless power through a power interruption, or you never want to draw power during peak hours, then you need a properly designed standalone energy storage system.

I feel too many people are getting all excited by Lucid’s ability to supply power without having any clue on how a properly designed energy storage backup system works. I don’t think of Lucid as a backup system. It is an emergency source of power during long term outages.

Does anyone know what the maximum continuous output power of Lucid is?

I had 2 powerwalls installed. After installation I decided I wanted a 3rd one. Tesla won’t do it!

Another eye opener for me was how the backup systems work while the grid is down. Solar recharges the batteries and supplies the home. Once the batteries are recharged, then the solar is shutdown. The house then draws down the battery to some point, then the solar turns back on to charge the batteries.

Thanks for the excellent explanation. My intent is to have emergency back up in case of a prolonged power outage. Our power company currently does not offer variable or hourly rates. They only offer flat rate.

 

[GEWC]

Don't lowball your number of powerwalls. Tesla does not let you add them after the fact, though I have heard they may be allowing 3rd parties to install them now. They changed their policy in the middle of our solar installation and while we had asked them to add 2 more powerwalls, they never wrote it up and we've been fighting for 2 years to try and get them added. Our 2 powerwalls only back up half the house and, annoyingly, they backed up the wrong half and refuse to fix it (long story). If we had ACs draining the powerwalls they would not last the night.

 

[digiboxer]

Thanks for the excellent explanation. My intent is to have emergency back up in case of a prolonged power outage. Our power company currently does not offer variable or hourly rates. They only offer flat rate.

if you have access to Nat Gas, a backup generator makes more sense and cost is comparable

 

[SubSailor]

First, why do you want energy storage in your home? Purely backup? Or, backup and to use during peak hours? I have 12.4kW of solar panels and two powerwalls. Remember that 1 powerwall has peak output power of 5 kW. If you are on backup with a single PW and an AC unit kicks in while you have the toaster going, the powerwall shuts down. The best thing about a PW is the gateway. You should study it’s functionality.

if all you want is emergency long term power, then maybe using Lucid’s battery makes sense. If you have anything that requires seamless power through a power interruption, or you never want to draw power during peak hours, then you need a properly designed standalone energy storage system.

I feel too many people are getting all excited by Lucid’s ability to supply power without having any clue on how a properly designed energy storage backup system works. I don’t think of Lucid as a backup system. It is an emergency source of power during long term outages.

Does anyone know what the maximum continuous output power of Lucid is?

I had 2 powerwalls installed. After installation I decided I wanted a 3rd one. Tesla won’t do it!

Another eye opener for me was how the backup systems work while the grid is down. Solar recharges the batteries and supplies the home. Once the batteries are recharged, then the solar is shutdown. The house then draws down the battery to some point, then the solar turns back on to charge the batteries.

 

[SubSailor]

As BoomerAZ mentioned...when I called Tesla and inquired about purchasing two more Powerwalls...they informed me that they were only supplying PWs to people installing Tesla Solar.

 

[DeaneG]

If you run say 10kWh in and out of your powerwall per day as an arbitrage play, you could make $0.32/kWh or about $3.20 per day at the height of summer. Say 1/4 of that in the winter or an average of $1.60 per day gain. At roughly $9000 cost per powerwall, it would take 5625 cycles (days) or 15 years to pay it off, ignoring the time value of money. Seems like most of the value of a powerwall would be as a home backup rather than as a tool for arbitrage, unless I've made an error in assumptions.