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MoniputerLM said:
From Car and Driver:

The high-performance Eletre R's range isn't as impressive and Lotus estimates only about 302 miles per charge on the European WLTP, which would equate to about 250 miles by the EPA's guidelines.
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Maybe WTLP is doing 45 miles steady driving.
 
epradox said:
Isn’t the lotus the same as the polestar 3? They’re all built on the geelys sea platform iirc
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Lotus R version has 900HP.
 
epradox said:
surprised no one has mentioned the rivian r1s... probably the only suv id consider vs the gravity
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R1S is what I would call an energy guzzler. 2.2miles per KWh with a large battery for a small range. If you really take 7 people on a trip it is cheaper than driving 2 cars. However, Rivian is too small to build its own chargers. It will take 1hr or so to charge and go another 150 miles. I cannot imagine waiting so long.
 
Rob Stark said:
Lyriq will made in Detroit.

Blazer EV and Prologue will be made GM factory in Ramos Arizpe, Coahuila, Mexico
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Lyriq is made in Springhill, TN

news.gm.com

Cadillac Celebrates Launch of LYRIQ at Spring Hill, Tennessee, Assembly Plant

Today, General Motors marks another major milestone in its commitment to an all-electric future as Cadillac formally celebrates the beginning of retail production of the 2023 Cadillac LYRIQ at GM’s Spring Hill, Tennessee, assembly plant. GM President Mark Reuss, Cadillac Vice President Rory...
news.gm.com news.gm.com
 
HariK said:
R1S is what I would call an energy guzzler. 2.2miles per KWh with a large battery for a small range. If you really take 7 people on a trip it is cheaper than driving 2 cars. However, Rivian is too small to build its own chargers. It will take 1hr or so to charge and go another 150 miles. I cannot imagine waiting so long.
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This exactly! The Rivian is a great vehicle but they have to figure out the efficiency. The larger battery is 135kwh and that only get you 315 miles of range.

Besides rapidly losing the point of EV’s in the first place, from a user experience, it’s going to be worse.

As @HariK pointed out, that’s going to take much, much longer to charge all that capacity. Never mind the actual cost of that extra juice.

I have driven SUV’s for 30 years. I have a deposit down on a Rivian. But the motor and battery tech of Lucid was so compelling to me, I’m happily driving a car. I can’t wait for the Gravity. But I went with a Lucid Car over any other SUV.
 
th14 said:
This exactly! The Rivian is a great vehicle but they have to figure out the efficiency. The larger battery is 135kwh and that only get you 315 miles of range.

Besides rapidly losing the point of EV’s in the first place, from a user experience, it’s going to be worse.

As @HariK pointed out, that’s going to take much, much longer to charge all that capacity. Never mind the actual cost of that extra juice.

I have driven SUV’s for 30 years. I have a deposit down on a Rivian. But the motor and battery tech of Lucid was so compelling to me, I’m happily driving a car. I can’t wait for the Gravity. But I went with a Lucid Car over any other SUV.
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What you and the other guys are discussing provide such great insights that the general public will have to learn and understand. EVs are such complex beasts and are such a difference experience than what the general public is used to. Simple impacts such as what weight has on the range and how that translates to the amount of stuff you put into the vehicle (including people). Also insights regarding how important the efficency of the technology based drive train, motor and internal invertor/charger has on waiting time to charge the vehicle and how many miles you get from it are really needed in making an informed decision. Unfortunately, I believe the general public will need to go through a tremendous learning curve to understand this. As they do, we are going to see a lot of anger and disappointment as unrealistic expectations are not met.
 
DJL said:
What you and the other guys are discussing provide such great insights that the general public will have to learn and understand. EVs are such complex beasts and are such a difference experience than what the general public is used to. Simple impacts such as what weight has on the range and how that translates to the amount of stuff you put into the vehicle (including people). Also insights regarding how important the efficency of the technology based drive train, motor and internal invertor/charger has on waiting time to charge the vehicle and how many miles you get from it are really needed in making an informed decision. Unfortunately, I believe the general public will need to go through a tremendous learning curve to understand this. As they do, we are going to see a lot of anger and disappointment as unrealistic expectations are not met.
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I completely agree. And yet, so many of these things apply equally to ICE cars, and no one seems to get angry about it.

Obviously driving around with 5 people will get you worse gas milage. Driving 80 on the highway instead of 60 will get you worse gas milage. Driving uphill into the wind. And on and on. No car gets its EPA milage on a regular basis.

The difference is that people aren’t obsessed with gas milage, but they seem to be with EV range. (The media has played a big part in that, of course.)

This scenario where you’re going to run out of gas on a regular basis with no warning, so it’s great you can just fill up anywhere quick if you get stuck in that situation is such an odd fear to me. I had a basic routine when I commuted to work in my ICE cars. I’d get gas on the same days every week, and I’d run out fairly predictably, once I figured out how far I could go in my particular car on my particular route.

If anything, EVs make this far easier, as you can simply plug in every night and have a “full tank” at the start of every day.

Road trips are always the exception, of course. But the daily experience of owning an EV so far outweighs the slight inconvenience of the occasional road trip for the majority of people that this whole discussion becomes silly to you a few months into owning your first EV.

This is why so many of us who have owned EVs have a hard time relating to those who still have this anxiety. It’s so far in the past for me now that I can’t remember ever being worried about it.

So yes, education of the public is important. But nothing compares to having experience teach folks that their fears are mostly overblown. Obsessing over range and efficiency is a fool’s errand, for the most part. When you see how infrequently your car ever even gets below 50% of its battery capacity, you get to the point where you realize there’s almost nothing you could do that would make you run out of juice on “normal” driving days. When you do the math and realize how little filling up that battery back to 100% costs vs. getting gas, you also stop thinking about the money.
 
joec said:
I completely agree. And yet, so many of these things apply equally to ICE cars, and no one seems to get angry about it.

Obviously driving around with 5 people will get you worse gas milage. Driving 80 on the highway instead of 60 will get you worse gas milage. Driving uphill into the wind. And on and on. No car gets its EPA milage on a regular basis.

The difference is that people aren’t obsessed with gas milage, but they seem to be with EV range. (The media has played a big part in that, of course.)

This scenario where you’re going to run out of gas on a regular basis with no warning, so it’s great you can just fill up anywhere quick if you get stuck in that situation is such an odd fear to me. I had a basic routine when I commuted to work in my ICE cars. I’d get gas on the same days every week, and I’d run out fairly predictably, once I figured out how far I could go in my particular car on my particular route.

If anything, EVs make this far easier, as you can simply plug in every night and have a “full tank” at the start of every day.

Road trips are always the exception, of course. But the daily experience of owning an EV so far outweighs the slight inconvenience of the occasional road trip for the majority of people that this whole discussion becomes silly to you a few months into owning your first EV.

This is why so many of us who have owned EVs have a hard time relating to those who still have this anxiety. It’s so far in the past for me now that I can’t remember ever being worried about it.

So yes, education of the public is important. But nothing compares to having experience teach folks that their fears are mostly overblown. Obsessing over range and efficiency is a fool’s errand, for the most part. When you see how infrequently your car ever even gets below 50% of its battery capacity, you get to the point where you realize there’s almost nothing you could do that would make you run out of juice on “normal” driving days. When you do the math and realize how little filling up that battery back to 100% costs vs. getting gas, you also stop thinking about the money.
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Joe,
Thank you for sharing your wisdom and experience on this issue. It means a lot, especially coming from someone with such an extensive background and history with EVs. I totally agree with you regarding the 90% of the driving experience people will have with EVs: i.e., local driving. Where I have a concern is in regards to longer trips. I am in the process of planning our first extensive trip which starts on Wednesday. This will be a 3000 mile round trip going over the Rockies with current temperature hovering around freezing and cresting an elevation of over 11,000 feet. What gives me concern is learning the hard way of what low temperatures and significant increases in elevation have on range. Compound that with the issue of reliability of EV charging stations and the possibility of having to add unknow down time waiting for someone to charge in front of us generates an unknown to me in how long each leg of our trip will take. Will I arrive at our hotel at 5PM or 10PM? Every day I am checking on the status of each EV station that I plan to use and I am seeing that a nubmer of them have limited chargers working and their status seems to change each day. Thus, I do know know when I arrive will I have 350 kW available, 150kW available, 50 kW available or will none of them be available? This is not something I have experienced before with an ICE.
Also, if I get a flat, how long of a delay will that generate because the closest little town does not carry EV tires that can handle 5300 pound car? Yes, I am carrying the EV spare but that limits speed and it is not rated for long distance. If a software issue happens, will I be stranded somewhere waiting lord knows how many hours for a flat bed tow truck to pick me up simply because the nearest small town only has a standard tow truck? I know there are areas along our freeway route that lacks cell phone coverage. If something happens in those remore areas, I will not have the convenience, comfort and security of just calling Lucid's Customer Service and make arraignments from my car.
Please realize that I and my wife are risk takers. We recently spent 10 year sailing around the world, just the two of us in our sailboat. The concept of fending for ourselves and solving problems that could be life threatening is not new to us.
WIth all that said, I shudder to think what will go through the minds of "more normal" people when they decide to take their EV on a long trip. My guess is that many of them will just throw in their luggage, as they have always done with their ICE, and take off with little planning or research. Then, if perchance, an unanticipated problem(s) crops up, they will be ill prepared to deal with it and it leaves a bad taste and impact on them. I know that many of these things can also happen with a ICE, but if their experience with ICE's have been positive, as it has been with most people, the bad experience with the EV will seem to be more inherent with EVs.
Now, if you have a lot of experience with EVs on long trips and can offer the same comfort and confidence that you did above, I would greatly appreciate you sharing that insight. I put great stock in the advice you have offered throught the life of the forum and trust what you write. Thanks and best regards.
 
DJL said:
... Where I have a concern is in regards to longer trips. I am in the process of planning our first extensive trip which starts on Wednesday. This will be a 3000 mile round trip going over the Rockies with current temperature hovering around freezing and cresting an elevation of over 11,000 feet. What gives me concern is learning the hard way of what low temperatures and significant increases in elevation have on range. ....
Click to expand...
"A better route planner" is your friend here and does account for elevation gain/loss and actual speeds. If you pay the nominal membership fee, it will additionally take weather into account. Both website and phone app.
 
DeaneG said:
"A better route planner" is your friend here and does account for elevation gain/loss and actual speeds. If you pay the nominal membership fee, it will additionally take weather into account. Both website and phone app.
Click to expand...
Thank you for your input.. I have been relying on ABRP and am a premium member. Also, just an FYI, it recently was updated and has some new, subtle features. I have adjusted the number of charging stations based on it for this upcoming trip.
 
DJL said:
Joe,
Thank you for sharing your wisdom and experience on this issue. It means a lot, especially coming from someone with such an extensive background and history with EVs. I totally agree with you regarding the 90% of the driving experience people will have with EVs: i.e., local driving. Where I have a concern is in regards to longer trips. I am in the process of planning our first extensive trip which starts on Wednesday. This will be a 3000 mile round trip going over the Rockies with current temperature hovering around freezing and cresting an elevation of over 11,000 feet. What gives me concern is learning the hard way of what low temperatures and significant increases in elevation have on range. Compound that with the issue of reliability of EV charging stations and the possibility of having to add unknow down time waiting for someone to charge in front of us generates an unknown to me in how long each leg of our trip will take. Will I arrive at our hotel at 5PM or 10PM? Every day I am checking on the status of each EV station that I plan to use and I am seeing that a nubmer of them have limited chargers working and their status seems to change each day. Thus, I do know know when I arrive will I have 350 kW available, 150kW available, 50 kW available or will none of them be available? This is not something I have experienced before with an ICE.
Also, if I get a flat, how long of a delay will that generate because the closest little town does not carry EV tires that can handle 5300 pound car? Yes, I am carrying the EV spare but that limits speed and it is not rated for long distance. If a software issue happens, will I be stranded somewhere waiting lord knows how many hours for a flat bed tow truck to pick me up simply because the nearest small town only has a standard tow truck? I know there are areas along our freeway route that lacks cell phone coverage. If something happens in those remore areas, I will not have the convenience, comfort and security of just calling Lucid's Customer Service and make arraignments from my car.
Please realize that I and my wife are risk takers. We recently spent 10 year sailing around the world, just the two of us in our sailboat. The concept of fending for ourselves and solving problems that could be life threatening is not new to us.
WIth all that said, I shudder to think what will go through the minds of "more normal" people when they decide to take their EV on a long trip. My guess is that many of them will just throw in their luggage, as they have always done with their ICE, and take off with little planning or research. Then, if perchance, an unanticipated problem(s) crops up, they will be ill prepared to deal with it and it leaves a bad taste and impact on them. I know that many of these things can also happen with a ICE, but if their experience with ICE's have been positive, as it has been with most people, the bad experience with the EV will seem to be more inherent with EVs.
Now, if you have a lot of experience with EVs on long trips and can offer the same comfort and confidence that you did above, I would greatly appreciate you sharing that insight. I put great stock in the advice you have offered throught the life of the forum and trust what you write. Thanks and best regards.
Click to expand...
First off, thanks for the kind words. I am definitely no expert. But I am glad sharing my experience is helping some folks here.

I agree, many folks will not plan when they take road trips, and that could lead to very bad consequences. Not planning with an ICE car could lead to trouble, too, of course. But with EVs, you do need a good deal more planning, especially around finding your charging stops. Apps like A Better Route Planner definitely help. Having used mostly the Tesla Supercharger network in the past, I haven't had to deal with a lot of broken chargers. The only real issue I've had there is having to wait when all the chargers are taken. But with EA, it seems to be a bit more of a crap shoot. I'd always have a backup plan for any charger that simply doesn't work or can't be used for some other reason.

My general rule of thumb is to take frequent breaks, charge more often than I think I need to, and just accept that it may take a bit longer to get somewhere than I'd like. But that's me. I don't love high risk situations. Others will run their cars down to almost 0% in order to get the fastest charging and the earliest arrival times. Which is all well and good until you get to that charger with 2% battery and the charger doesn't work.

To me, the trip is the fun, so I don't mind a trip that takes a bit longer. Usually, I get to stop in some small towns I otherwise would not have seen. Or I get to go a slightly longer but prettier route.

In general, though, I have been lucky on road trips, I suppose. I have never encountered a major problem, whether that be a blowout of a tire, a major mechanical failure, or anything else. I take comfort in the fact that EVs generally have fewer parts that can go wrong. But that doesn't help when something does go wrong, of course.

You are probably right to be a bit worried about a young company like Lucid being able to help you in the middle of the mountains in the freezing cold. From what I can tell from folks here, the biggest issue may be a long wait to get mobile service out to you, depending on where you are at the time. You could be waiting on the side of the road for a good while, which sucks. But assuming a mobile tech gets to you, they should be able to replace a blown out tire, or worst case get you a rental car to complete your trip if they can't fix the issue. That's not an ideal outcome, of course, but it seems unlikely you will be put in a position where you have to abandon the trip altogether, at least.

Finally, if I were planning a trip, and I really was worried that perhaps the risk is too high for my car due to the location, route, weather, or whatever, one option I'd always consider is renting something just for the trip. I've never gotten to the point where I took up that option, but I always consider it, just in case. The way I figure, I save so much in gas throughout the year, renting a car for a week or so for a trip still probably leaves me ahead in terms of cost. Hope that helps.
 
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DJL said:
Thank you for your input.. I have been relying on ABRP and am a premium member. Also, just an FYI, it recently was updated and has some new, subtle features. I have adjusted the number of charging stations based on it for this upcoming trip.
Click to expand...
I found that feature to be particularly interesting: the trade-off between trip time and the number of charging stops. This is not obvious to new EV drivers.
 
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joec said:
I completely agree. And yet, so many of these things apply equally to ICE cars, and no one seems to get angry about it.

Obviously driving around with 5 people will get you worse gas milage. Driving 80 on the highway instead of 60 will get you worse gas milage. Driving uphill into the wind. And on and on. No car gets its EPA milage on a regular basis.

The difference is that people aren’t obsessed with gas milage, but they seem to be with EV range. (The media has played a big part in that, of course.)
Click to expand...
EPA EV range ratings piss me off. I’m starting to get annoyed trying to explain to my family how tesla rated range is not the same as some other EVs that are rated for less range yet get more. Why in the world is there 2 different EPA cycle tests for range… that should be illegal. It’s incredibly annoying having to figure out if some manufacture did the 2 cycle or 5 cycle test then extrapolate the real range from there. Or you go look at like 5 different magazines, publications or YouTubers who all have now their own tests that they add cars too and have to compare and contrast those. EPA needs to junk their 2 separate tests, make one comprehensive unified test that is equivalent with all cars. Why that’s not the norm is beyond me…
 
th14 said:
I have a deposit on an R1S. And I think it’s a great vehicle. But my hope is the gravity comes sooner than later and I can get one.
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@th14 When did you place reservation?
LucidNC said:
Already have an R1S on order (since early 2021) .. no idea when we may get delivery
(btw, put in a Hummer SUV reservation too, but never heard a thing from GM. .. likely cancelling.. if I ever hear back)
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I still haven’t heard from GM, it’s been 8 months. I gave up already. Btw,have you gone thru Configurator yet? Have they given you estimation window?
HariK said:
R1S is what I would call an energy guzzler. 2.2miles per KWh with a large battery for a small range. If you really take 7 people on a trip it is cheaper than driving 2 cars. However, Rivian is too small to build its own chargers. It will take 1hr or so to charge and go another 150 miles. I cannot imagine waiting so long.
Click to expand...
2.2 mi/kWh, more like 1.7 mi/kWh in real world by one person driving. But have to admit, it’s been cold. But their software and range estimator is amazingly accurate. I wish Lucid can copy the way the do the gauge efficiency and range estimation —— a total transparency, not really efficient, but they are not shy to reveal details.
th14 said:
This exactly! The Rivian is a great vehicle but they have to figure out the efficiency. The larger battery is 135kwh and that only get you 315 miles of range.

Besides rapidly losing the point of EV’s in the first place, from a user experience, it’s going to be worse.

As @HariK pointed out, that’s going to take much, much longer to charge all that capacity. Never mind the actual cost of that extra juice.

I have driven SUV’s for 30 years. I have a deposit down on a Rivian. But the motor and battery tech of Lucid was so compelling to me, I’m happily driving a car. I can’t wait for the Gravity. But I went with a Lucid Car over any other SUV.
Click to expand...
Rivian charging curve is amazing, most of time they stay at 200 kWh speed before 70%, I don’t know how they did it. It’s like that for both EA 350kW stalls and Rivian Adventure Network stalls.
When did you put a deposit down? I’m trying to guage how far is the line.
joec said:
The difference is that people aren’t obsessed with gas milage, but they seem to be with EV range. (The media has played a big part in that, of course.)
Click to expand...
I get that alot too. “If my F150 can go 500 miles range and just put in gas in 5 minutes, why do I need to sit there long time to wait for charging?”

”Hello?! You don’t need restroom break and stretching?” “Are you a professional driver can drive 500 miles without stopping for a break?”

General public is still brainwashed by oil industry media.
 
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