Enthusiast Canceling after the Launch event - in Depth Reasons/discrepancies noted

[stratus]

OP here. The point of this original post was to spur exactly this discussion. I don’t feel entitled to Highway assist or such. I just want Lucid to be honest, transparent, and consistent, and I do not feel they were so regarding Highway Assist in Dreamdrive non-pro. Simple as that. And yes, I did cancel my Airs as I felt they had demonstrated behaviors regarding transparency inconsistent with a company I wanted to support (and I very much want to support a startup American EV manufacturer, which is why I own a Rivian R1S). I post here only as an enthusiast, and if they rectify this type of issue, or at a minimum are clear on their “L2/L3 driving assist plans, I am happy to reserve a Gravity SUV this spring.

As for those on this forum, I only posted the Barry LucidInsider Twitter spat because I admired him as an enthusiast who tried to get a ‘in the details’ Lucid blog started like all the Tesla and Rivian ones we see, and it was unfortunate to see Lucid treat someone that way publicly.

If we get past the flaming and trolling of me, hopefully you can see that I don’t care about clicks or something, nor the stock price, you will see I am simply trying to spur EXACTLY this discussion so Lucid sees it, and can correct it before they have massive cancellations of the mass-market Pure due to highway assist, because I care about innovative companies and sometimes they can get arrogant or screw up packaging. My level of detail in these posts should demonstrate I have followed Lucid a long time and know the technical details. I respect everyone who bought a AGT or dream and money is no object, but this company won’t survive as a boutique car company without steady mass market orders so its really not necessary to treat Pure owners like garbage, rather and hear out their opinions if you actually care about Lucid’s viability beyond a patronage of the Saudi Arabia investment fund. No one wants Lucid to be the next Fisker Karma.

Honestly, no one is treating Pure owners like garbage; that is a bit silly. The one thing that has impressed me about this forum is that , in the overwhelming majority of instances, there is no preferential treatment of anyone based on perceived status or technical prowess. That’s why I came here, to learn about the vehicle from really intelligent folks.
The Pure and Touring models are both wonderful, I originally had a Touring reserved and then switched to a GT, for added range. Was it worth the extra cost in terms of value? Not sure. In retrospect , the Pure or Touring would have been just as satisfying , with a few tweaks.
In my opinion, HA is is one of the least important aspects of the car, but I completely understand that some people love it. If it disappeared tomorrow from my software update, I could care less. The car is incredible to drive and that is it’s greatest attribute.

 

[SDHacker]

You are incorrect in that the Chinese local govt actually backed Nio, sold their stake, and took a profit.

How China’s communist officials became venture capitalists

Hefei, a city in eastern China, has pioneered a shift in Chinese capitalism over recent years, in which local governments are increasingly taking minority stakes in private companies like electric vehicle maker Nio.

www.scmp.com

I read regularly here that the PIF will keep the balance sheet healthy. It’s a major reason to believe the company will have the funding to scale and service cars well into the future. Nio hasn’t even received $1B from the Chinese govt. You’re arguing that Lucid is not backed by a sovereign? They just announced up to $1.5B ($900mm from PIF) in dilution, on top of local factory subsidies, a 100k unit order, and the $1B recapitalization (pre-SPAC) in 2018.

“Not even remotely the same”, I believe you mean the PIF is much more aggressive and owns 60% of the company, not 0%.

You only looked at the bailout Hefei offered NIO as they faced bankruptcy - it wasn't an investment like we think of investment. It was a bailout and the numbers range from $1.4B to $800M. That bailout changed the structure of NIO putting most of NIO's assets/HQ/subsidiaries in Hefei. This doesn't count the central government subsidies given to key industries like EVs that started in 2009 and has been ongoing - recently extended to the end of 23. It's been estimated that over $47B in subsidies have been given out to EV makers. JAC, which produces NIO's vehicles is one of the top 10 receivers of government subsidies. It's not just the direct government subsidies and bailout but the cost advantage given NIO in dealing with other government controlled entities that produce batteries and other components put into their vehicles (JAC is listed as being controlled by the central government).

 

[icebergpvb]

You only looked at the bailout Hefei offered NIO as they faced bankruptcy - it wasn't an investment like we think of investment. It was a bailout and the numbers range from $1.4B to $800M. That bailout changed the structure of NIO putting most of NIO's assets/HQ/subsidiaries in Hefei. This doesn't count the central government subsidies given to key industries like EVs that started in 2009 and has been ongoing - recently extended to the end of 23. It's been estimated that over $47B in subsidies have been given out to EV makers. JAC, which produces NIO's vehicles is one of the top 10 receivers of government subsidies. It's not just the direct government subsidies and bailout but the cost advantage given NIO in dealing with other government controlled entities that produce batteries and other components put into their vehicles (JAC is listed as being controlled by the central government).

You’re missing the point. Both entities are or were backed by sovereigns. They likely don’t exist without their ongoing support. Tesla included, given the consumer tax subsidy and ZEV credits. I’m well aware of the Chinese govt’s complete plundering of the entire supply chain, from previous metals mining to the end consumer. Whether you want to treat the PIF investment, factory, and “order” as a related party transaction or not, I don’t care. The issue is whether people here ordering cars believe the Saudi govt serves as a backstop, which, they have said as much.

 

[digiboxer]

You’re missing the point. Both entities are or were backed by sovereigns. They likely don’t exist without their ongoing support. Tesla included, given the consumer tax subsidy and ZEV credits. I’m well aware of the Chinese govt’s complete plundering of the entire supply chain, from previous metals mining to the end consumer. Whether you want to treat the PIF investment, factory, and “order” as a related party transaction or not, I don’t care. The issue is whether people here ordering cars believe the Saudi govt serves as a backstop, which, they have said as much.

I think the Saudis will continue to support Lucid as long as they see a clear path to a decent ROI....someday. If they no longer see it they will behave like any other professional investor and cut their losses.

I suspect the decline in Q over Q order book is a bit disconcerting to them.

 

[nasilemak]

Does DDP provide significant improvement over regular DD in helping avoid collision?

not sure if this is fully discussed but would really like to see the breakdown of the features of DD and DDP

 

[nasilemak]

Dream Drive Pro list item is ONLY just added on recently.
- 360 surround monitoring (UX20 enhanced)
- Blind spot display (UX20 enhanced)
- Highway Assist (3 weeks old)

I think just Dream Drive is sufficient enough with Adaptive Cruise Control if one is sensitive to price.

The list of features is at Lucid’s discretion. Lucid doesn’t make balloon promises they can’t keep. Who knows if Dream Drive may included Highway Assist down the road. Right now they want to focus on Lidar related enhancement and equipments are prerequisite.

If you get your car this year, you get $7500 Fed Tax credit to offset DDP cost. If not, just wait for it. Lucid doesn’t have to bend over to make promises can’t keep. It’s your money, you will be missing out an awesome car.

View attachment 6825

can we pin this somewhere? this is helpful to see.

 

[nasilemak]

The thing to keep in mind is GT/DE customers are different from Pure customers. They are going to have a hard time with people hemming and hawing over $9k for Dream Drive Pro, because they spent that and way more on their cars. They clearly see spending extra to get more as a no-brainer.

They also have their cars. So they can forget all the nitpicks every time they get behind the wheel.

Pure customers are by definition a bit more cost conscious. Which is fine. But if you don't want to spend extra money on features that aren't worth it to you, then just don't spend it. A GT customer isn't going to have trouble understanding that decision. But they absolutely will take issue with the constant complaining about it.

You're asking people who have already bought the more expensive thing to agree with you that you should get that expensive thing for free. Now, that's a tough sell.

This is perhaps a bit of an unfair generalization, but a good number of folks here seem to want Lucid to hand them all the features of DDPro just because. As if it makes no difference to Lucid's bottom line whatsoever to give away free hardware and software. Or they feel that because Lucid listed a feature or stat under Pure on the web site, that this means that stat automatically applies to ALL Pures, rather than just fully loaded ones. Tons of talk about what was "promised" going on, but a lot of these promises boil down to wishful thinking. (And a small dose of poor communication on Lucid's part, I will gladly admit.)

But other than a $300 deposit, you've given Lucid nothing at this point, so they don't owe you anything. Take your $300 back and move on if you like.

Lucid has put a value on their product. You don't have to agree with the value. But insisting they have to change their value proposition to make you happy just seems—well—silly to the many of us who have already had their cars delivered or soon will. We clearly disagree, or we would not have already spent the money you seem unwilling to spend.

We don't care that companies x, y, and z offer some version of those features or what they do or don't charge. We don't want to hear about your Honda or Toyota. Either you agree the Air is worth it, or you don't.

Lucid will see the results of these decisions and adjust their strategy accordingly. Someday they may create a version of the 360 cam that can work with the fewer cameras offered with non DDPro cars. They may offer a less robust version of Highway Assist that doesn't rely on LiDAR. But they haven't yet. So they can't offer that yet. Right now they are concentrating on making the best possible versions of these features for the customers who are paying extra for the Pro hardware. The benefits of those features will eventually begin to make their way down to lower trims, as they always do.

Meanwhile, it seems like a pretty simple choice. Buy or don't. We've had several members here who at the end of the day said "You know what, I'm going with the Ionic 5, or the Genesis EV60, or the i7." Or whatever other car they felt was better for them and their family. And no one here has ever taken issue with that.

Many of us Touring customers have lamented the lack of massage seats as an option on Touring. I think Lucid could make a good bit of extra money if they offered that. But you don't see entire threads here filled with Touring customers emphatically stating "EVEN MY VW RABBIT HAD MASSAGE SEATS! LUCID IS CRAZY NOT TO JUST GIVE THEM TO ME. HOW COULD A $100K CAR NOT HAVE MASSAGE SEATS!"

I could have upgraded to a GT for those massage seats. I chose not to. No rant necessary.

So while many of us here are understanding of some feeling of let down after the specs on the Pure were finally released, I think it's fair to say at a certain point, it's hard to remain empathetic when it's the same argument being made over and over again. Might be the first time you are making it, but believe me, it's not the first time we are hearing it.

People come here for lots of reasons. Listening to others rant and rave is definitely not at the top of my list. I've got Twitter for that.

this is highly empathetic and well written! curious if a monthly google form for feedback might be a great idea? it is easy to setup and we can get some data on what people think and it will be more consolidated versus it being scattered around different topics and disrupt discussions. i can create one if mods think this is a good idea.

 

[Bunnylebowski]

These Chinese guys are going to eat everyone alive

Let’s assume you’re oblivious to how xenophobic/racially unaware that sounds, and skip to the part where the Japanese did not “eat us alive”when they did what our own auto industry could not do in the late 70s/early 80s by building reliable fuel efficient cars. The market adapted, and now they make lots of jobs in the US. If China wants to bring the Nio ET7 here, go ahead.

 

[Tesla2.0]

These Chinese guys are going to eat everyone alive on price if they don’t come down market fast, imo. Pure needs to cost a bit less given the loss of $7500 tax subsidy, otherwise the used Touring and GT markets are going to pull on demand. I’d be happy with a more stripped down version, model 3-ish.

I’m sure they will reduce to mid-size Model-3 level chassis coming down in price. Lucid estimated that to be around 2025. Right now Air is about Tesla flagship Model-S size.

 

[MoniputerLM]

Let’s assume you’re oblivious to how xenophobic/racially unaware that sounds, and skip to the part where the Japanese did not “eat us alive”when they did what our own auto industry could not do in the late 70s/early 80s by building reliable fuel efficient cars. The market adapted, and now they make lots of jobs in the US. If China wants to bring the Nio ET7 here, go ahead.

Tesla, GM, BWM, Mercedes and Ford sell a lot of cars in China. If the Chinese companies bring cars that people like to the US, so be it. People have different tastes in cars.

 

[Tesla2.0]

Tesla, GM, BWM, Mercedes and Ford sell a lot of cars in China. If the Chinese companies bring cars that people like to the US, so be it. People have different tastes in cars.

Free market is what makes USA greatest country in the world.

But if China wants to import EVs to USA, they better pay up 27%+ duty tax to help pay for our charging grid infrastructure. If not, then build factories in the states and create jobs while producing them, no free lunch for FX arbitrage sucking up USA economy imho.

 

[dolphinsafe]

Drove the AGT today - very solid. Spoke to the rep about a variety of differences between the AT and AGT. DDP is a hardware difference - I wasn't aware of this, being used to how Tesla markets their cars as basically just an OTA away from having FSD. But cars without DDP apparently won't be able to get DDP without hardware changes - LiDAR doesn't come without DDP. They've busted out features a little more intelligently than Tesla. Camera's are fine but LiDAR is a better tech for measuring distance.
The AGT and AT are essentially similar. Small trim changes - less alcantara, DDP isn't standard on the AT and you can't get massage seats. Aside from that - and the battery pack - they're basically the same car.
With DDP you get the 360 degree camera when you're going slow and there are objects around. Along with auto-park, highway assist, lane centering/auto steering and all the good things that come with autonomous driving on a highway. Ultimately lane changing etc. It does have one advantage - hands free as long as you're paying attention - with occasion (20 minutes or so) without having to touch the wheel. The DDP was much less confident when lane markings were questionable but it would warn that it was limited.
To be completely honest - I'm not a firm believer in self-driving technologies. I think it can lull the user into a false sense of security that the car is really driving itself. The Tesla "touch the wheel" isn't a very good observance of paying attention and can easily be cheated by use of an orange or bean bag. I much prefer something that's watching your eyes.
I'll go ahead with my AT commitment with DDP. And I know that the Lucid value proposition is not as good as it may have been several months ago.

 

[icebergpvb]

Tesla, GM, BWM, Mercedes and Ford sell a lot of cars in China. If the Chinese companies bring cars that people like to the US, so be it. People have different tastes in cars.

i think the lower cost Japanese and Korean OEMs, Germans et al are at risk and yes, can get marketshare “eaten alive.” There’s nothing racial about that comment, it merely has to do with where the cars are made, “bunnylebowski”. The post was complimentary of the Nio feature set, which is definitionally not “xenophobic.”

 

[Tesla2.0]

i think the lower cost Japanese and Korean OEMs, Germans et al are at risk and yes, can get marketshare “eaten alive.” There’s nothing racial about that comment, it merely has to do with where the cars are made, “bunnylebowski”. The post was complimentary of the Nio feature set, which is definitionally not “xenophobic.”

I have ridden a Nio EV 3.5 years ago. I actually mistaken it as Tesla model-S first time when got picked up by one. I didn’t think Chinese were capable back then. Now I’ve heard they have improved even much more. It’s kind of scary how fast they advance while this side of world still gospel for fossil fuel.

 

[MoniputerLM]

Free market is what makes USA greatest country in the world.

But if China wants to import EVs to USA, they better pay up 27%+ duty tax to help pay for our charging grid infrastructure. If not, then build factories in the states and create jobs while producing them, no free lunch for FX arbitrage sucking up USA economy imho.

I was mostly saying that no one company, or country, is going to dominate the EV market the way Tesla did for so long.

But I agree that all of the EV makers need to work on the charging system.

 

[Bobby]

did you know ipace is discountinued? how do you feel about that?

I have an I Pace. What is your source on it being discontinued? Thanks.

 

[nasilemak]

I have an I Pace. What is your source on it being discontinued? Thanks.

my bad. upon validating, it is an old news for 2020. false alarm and not sure how to edit my original post. i reported it myself.

 

[invalidname]

Could you provide a few links to these studies, especially on preferences to ADAS by demographic? Interesting stuff!

Many studies show younger generations prefer Level 2 and above ADAS, while older generations prefer traditional driving.

If history tells us anything, newer generations are typically more prone to new technology while older generations are typically more traditionists.

Add to the fact that younger generations tend to have to grind against traffic to work, self-driving cars can alleviate the monotonous slog. Meanwhile older generations are typically in more lax position in life or retired, and rather wish to enjoy their cars than use ADAS features that take away the experience of feeling their drive.

2016 U.S. Tech Choice Study

Trust in automation technology is very much age dependent, as younger consumers have a notably higher level of confidence in the technology than their older counterparts, according to the J.D. Power 2016 U.S. Tech Choice StudySM released today. Trust in automation technology is a critical step...

www.jdpower.com

Survey: Millennials more likely to trust autonomous cars

Though fully autonomous vehicles have yet to be released for consumer use, according to a recent Autolist survey , it seems that there is already a market for them. In a nationwide survey of 8,576 …

www.jacksonville.com

Younger Generations More Likely to Prefer a Self-Driving Vehicle — AutoPacific

1/2 of Generation Y and Z New Car Buyers Would Prefer a Self-Driving Vehicle When asked if they “would prefer to own a vehicle that, on demand, can drive itself,” 28% of new vehicle buyers overall agree with the statement (top 2 box). Generation Z new vehicle owners are the most likely to agree (50

www.autopacific.com

Older Americans more wary than younger adults about prospect of driverless cars on the road

53% of those 50 and older say the widespread use of driverless vehicles would be a bad idea for society, as do 37% of adults ages 18 to 49.

www.pewresearch.org

 

[Bobby]

Many studies show younger generations prefer Level 2 and above ADAS, while older generations prefer traditional driving.

If history tells us anything, newer generations are typically more prone to new technology while older generations are typically more traditionists.

Add to the fact that younger generations tend to have to grind against traffic to work, self-driving cars can alleviate the monotonous slog. Meanwhile older generations are typically in more lax position in life or retired, and rather wish to enjoy their cars than use ADAS features that take away the experience of feeling their drive.

2016 U.S. Tech Choice Study

Trust in automation technology is very much age dependent, as younger consumers have a notably higher level of confidence in the technology than their older counterparts, according to the J.D. Power 2016 U.S. Tech Choice StudySM released today. Trust in automation technology is a critical step...

www.jdpower.com

Survey: Millennials more likely to trust autonomous cars

Though fully autonomous vehicles have yet to be released for consumer use, according to a recent Autolist survey , it seems that there is already a market for them. In a nationwide survey of 8,576 …

www.jacksonville.com

Younger Generations More Likely to Prefer a Self-Driving Vehicle — AutoPacific

1/2 of Generation Y and Z New Car Buyers Would Prefer a Self-Driving Vehicle When asked if they “would prefer to own a vehicle that, on demand, can drive itself,” 28% of new vehicle buyers overall agree with the statement (top 2 box). Generation Z new vehicle owners are the most likely to agree (50

www.autopacific.com

Older Americans more wary than younger adults about prospect of driverless cars on the road

53% of those 50 and older say the widespread use of driverless vehicles would be a bad idea for society, as do 37% of adults ages 18 to 49.

www.pewresearch.org

I’m 55. I tried the HA and it wasn’t for me.

 

[dolphinsafe]

not sure if this is fully discussed but would really like to see the breakdown of the features of DD and DDP

DD is basic intelligent cruise. Not really much more. DDP is a full suite of tools and is a hardware difference including LiDAR. DDP includes features like park assist (perpendicular as well as parallel), 360 degree camera when parking or at slow speeds (below 17mph) when objects are near, lots of visual feedback. DD only "beeps" at you . DDP has highway assist, hands free, lane centering and future upgrades like auto lane change. DD does not include those features.
Unfortunately, like many technologies you'll get to where if you use something and like it you'll never want to be without it. Similar to A/C, power windows, basic cruise etc - once you've used a full suite of ADAS you almost can't go back.
DD really shouldn't even include the name Dream Drive because it's really just basic cruise.