Dream Drive 2????

[WhistleKing30]

Hardware upgrades are only a good sign. It means that the company has learned lessons and improves on previous limitations - and is actually taking its autonomous ambitions seriously. I would be more concerned if the Gravity contained the exact same hardware stack as the 2017 platform. Also it doesn't necessarily mean that the current generation is immediately abandoned. There could even be some cross-learnings as the fleet size increases and the sensor (SLAM) capabilities of the individual vehicles increase.

 

[Blue Lectroid]

Is Tesla on the wrong track?!

They are certainly on a “different” track backed by lots of hubris. Not time will tell!

 

[Blue Lectroid]

WTF? That guy should lose access to any 'self driving' software in any vehicle forever:

For his part, Challinger is pretty laid back about the whole thing and blames himself for not paying attention and getting “complacent.” In a previous post from January, Challinger wrote about his habit of losing focus with FSD enabled: “Sometimes I decide to go somewhere and turn on Tesla FSD and then I forget where I decided to go and then it starts turning into Taco Bell or whatever and I’m like wtf is it doing and then I’m like oh right Taco Bell.”

I’d go one step further and say the guy should not be allowed anywhere near any vehicle without someone else to drive him and remind him where he is…he might also want a full work up for early onset dementia.

 

[Blue Lectroid]

So DD2 gets hands free while DD1 doesn’t

I hope not since hands free on the Air is on the roadmap and supposed to be “coming soon.”

 

[Tâm]

So DD2 gets hands free while DD1 doesn’t

That is what the sales materials have confirmed with what your money can buy today. Some hope Air will become hands-free some day but that's not listed with your Air purchase.

By the way, numerous companies offer hands-free without a LIDAR: GM Super Cruise drivers have been driving their cars hands-free since 2017 or the past 8 years, so this is not something new.

Cheap $1,000 Openpilot, without LIDAR, has been hands-free for a couple of years so far.

I think what more important for me is the ability to avoid collisions.

 

[Steveinarizona]

Good catch, but what makes me think hardware/computer limitations in the Air won’t allow for it? That’s the way it tends to be in other cars. Unfortunately for earlier buyers this becomes a fact of life.

And the new med level car will likely have DD3 and the replacement Air will likely have DD4. As you say...that is a fact of life. Technology does change more quickly these days.

 

[hmp10]

(Perhaps foolishly) I expected Lucid to do better than Tesla. But I am not so sure any more.

So, Elon Musk is a liar because he continues to slip his schedule of implementing a feature. But Rawlinson is better because he promise a feature on the Air (now 3 years old) but never communicated a date when it will happen?!

Tesla has been charging thousands of dollars ($15,000 at the pricing peak) for full self driving for years. The feature was first offered as an upgrade to Enhanced Auto Pilot in 2016, but the beta software was not introduced until October 2020. Now over four years later, Teslas are still not fully self driving, despite constant claims that it was just around the corner. Untold numbers of Tesla owners have sold or traded their cars without the feature they paid for ever being fully implemented.

You need to watch Peter Rawlinson's interviews about ADAS at the time the Air was being launched. He felt that anything like full self driving was much farther in the future than many people thought and would require so many billions of dollars in investment that many who set out to introduce it would give up or at least significantly modify their goals before ever getting there. And that goal adjustment has already happened with Mobileye, GM, and some others.

Rawlinson laid out Lucid's goals somewhat differently. Saying that there was uncertainty as to which sensor technologies would turn out to be the most useful as software evolved, Lucid's approach was to put all the reasonably foreseeable sensor hardware on the car to increase the chances of exploiting what turned out to be the best software direction. But he cautioned that getting to Level 4 ADAS (much less Level 5) was still years in the future. Meanwhile, he said that Lucid, with its Dream Drive hardware suite, was aiming no higher than Level 2+ or perhaps Level 3 . . . but that he could give no firm timeframe.

It's one thing to be impatient to get ADAS features that you want badly and that are slow in coming. It's another thing to accuse someone of being dishonest for telling an unwelcome truth.

The difference between Musk's and Rawlinson's approach is that Musk spared us the unwelcome truth, apparently understanding that his most vocal acolytes would prefer it that way.

 

[hydbob]

Let's compare DreamDrive1 VS DreamDrive2:

View attachment 26736


Notice that DreamDrive1 has LIDAR. Nowhere on the DreamDrive2 has any mention of LIDAR. What's going on?

Kind of weird there is no curb rash alert for Gravity

 

[Blue Lectroid]

Tesla has been charging thousands of dollars ($15,000 at the pricing peak) for full self driving for years. The feature was first offered as an upgrade to Enhanced Auto Pilot in 2016, but the beta software was not introduced until October 2020. Now over four years later, Teslas are still not fully self driving, despite constant claims that it was just around the corner. Untold numbers of Tesla owners have sold or traded their cars without the feature they paid for ever being fully implemented.

You need to watch Peter Rawlinson's interviews about ADAS at the time the Air was being launched. He felt that anything like full self driving was much farther in the future than many people thought and would require so many billions of dollars in investment that many who set out to introduce it would give up or at least significantly modify their goals before ever getting there. And that goal adjustment has already happened with Mobileye, GM, and some others.

Rawlinson laid out Lucid's goals somewhat differently. Saying that there was uncertainty as to which sensor technologies would turn out to be the most useful as software evolved, Lucid's approach was to put all the reasonably foreseeable sensor hardware on the car to increase the chances of exploiting what turned out to be the best software direction. But he cautioned that getting to Level 4 ADAS (much less Level 5) was still years in the future. Meanwhile, he said that Lucid, with its Dream Drive hardware suite, was aiming no higher than Level 2+ or perhaps Level 3 . . . but that he could give no firm timeframe.

It's one thing to be impatient to get ADAS features that you want badly and that are slow in coming. It's another thing to accuse someone of being dishonest for telling an unwelcome truth.

The difference between Musk's and Rawlinson's approach is that Musk spared us the unwelcome truth, apparently understanding that his most vocal acolytes would prefer it that way.

Great post. I completely agree that Peter / Lucid's handling of how they sold and promoted their ADAS is night & day different from what Elon / Tesla have done. In looking back over all of the comments Lucid and Peter have made about their ADAS, they have been honest and consistent. Sure, I wish that they'd develop the abilities faster, but they never gave a date in the first place. Tesla? Come on, if Elon wasn't so litigious and wealthy both he and Tesla would have been sued (and likely lost) a class action lawsuit for the claims made about Full Self Driving vs. the reality that has been delivered...

 

[hmp10]

Kind of weird there is no curb rash alert for Gravity

The updated order configurator shows it on the DreamDrive 2 Pro option.

 

[BS8899]

Tesla has been charging thousands of dollars ($15,000 at the pricing peak) for full self driving for years. The feature was first offered as an upgrade to Enhanced Auto Pilot in 2016, but the beta software was not introduced until October 2020. Now over four years later, Teslas are still not fully self driving, despite constant claims that it was just around the corner. Untold numbers of Tesla owners have sold or traded their cars without the feature they paid for ever being fully implemented.

You need to watch Peter Rawlinson's interviews about ADAS at the time the Air was being launched. He felt that anything like full self driving was much farther in the future than many people thought and would require so many billions of dollars in investment that many who set out to introduce it would give up or at least significantly modify their goals before ever getting there. And that goal adjustment has already happened with Mobileye, GM, and some others.

Rawlinson laid out Lucid's goals somewhat differently. Saying that there was uncertainty as to which sensor technologies would turn out to be the most useful as software evolved, Lucid's approach was to put all the reasonably foreseeable sensor hardware on the car to increase the chances of exploiting what turned out to be the best software direction. But he cautioned that getting to Level 4 ADAS (much less Level 5) was still years in the future. Meanwhile, he said that Lucid, with its Dream Drive hardware suite, was aiming no higher than Level 2+ or perhaps Level 3 . . . but that he could give no firm timeframe.

It's one thing to be impatient to get ADAS features that you want badly and that are slow in coming. It's another thing to accuse someone of being dishonest for telling an unwelcome truth.

The difference between Musk's and Rawlinson's approach is that Musk spared us the unwelcome truth, apparently understanding that his most vocal acolytes would prefer it that way.

I am no fan of Musk and Tesla. As I stated in a different post, I was ready to adopt EVs as far back as 2008. I looked at but decided not to buy a Tesla. Lucid was the first EV I purchased.

I was not and am not looking for hands-free as a requirement when I purchased the Air.

ADAS, as Lucid has implemented it to date, is years behind competition. And as you said, the landscape has changed quite a bit. Given Lucid's challenges with SW in the past 3+ years, I am very doubtful how Lucid's DD is going to stay competitive with the market.

I think it is time for Lucid to consider buying the ADAS technology (and other EV SW/UI technologies as well) from a market leader and focus on powertrain engineering where they indeed excel.

 

[hmp10]

ADAS, as Lucid has implemented it to date, is years behind competition. And as you said, the landscape has changed quite a bit. Given Lucid's challenges with SW in the past 3+ years, I am very doubtful how Lucid's DD is going to stay competitive with the market.

I think it is time for Lucid to consider buying the ADAS technology (and other EV SW/UI technologies as well) from a market leader and focus on powertrain engineering where they indeed excel.

Suggesting that Lucid should source its ADAS technology may be a valid viewpoint, but it is very different from saying that Lucid was misleading in the claims it made for its ADAS rollout.

 

[BS8899]

Suggesting that Lucid should source its ADAS technology may be a valid viewpoint, but it is very different from saying that Lucid was misleading in the claims it made for its ADAS rollout.

I never said Lucid was misleading on ADAS. I've never said they promised hands-free L3 and above. My points:
> Lucid has taken way too long on ADAS and they are years behind competition.
> Lucid has done a very poor job on communicating where they are where they are going.
> Lucid does not have a proven SW development/ integration culture and too small and distracted to try to take on all these developments and be successful.

 

[EZEVDriver]

I'm surprised that they haven't offered a reasonable upgrade path to DDPro from DDPremium for those of us who anticipated that the rollout of DDPro features would be slow. Obviously, there are hardware requirements and Air Pure and some AT owners would not benefit, but you would think that they want as much data as they can get on DDPro. In my list, Lucid only offers a $12,000 upgrade, which is $3000 more than had I gotten it with the car and without paying $2500 for DD Premium. I've suggested it to customer service and received a polite reply.

 

[HC_79]

Tesla has been charging thousands of dollars ($15,000 at the pricing peak) for full self driving for years. The feature was first offered as an upgrade to Enhanced Auto Pilot in 2016, but the beta software was not introduced until October 2020. Now over four years later, Teslas are still not fully self driving, despite constant claims that it was just around the corner. Untold numbers of Tesla owners have sold or traded their cars without the feature they paid for ever being fully implemented.

You need to watch Peter Rawlinson's interviews about ADAS at the time the Air was being launched. He felt that anything like full self driving was much farther in the future than many people thought and would require so many billions of dollars in investment that many who set out to introduce it would give up or at least significantly modify their goals before ever getting there. And that goal adjustment has already happened with Mobileye, GM, and some others.

Rawlinson laid out Lucid's goals somewhat differently. Saying that there was uncertainty as to which sensor technologies would turn out to be the most useful as software evolved, Lucid's approach was to put all the reasonably foreseeable sensor hardware on the car to increase the chances of exploiting what turned out to be the best software direction. But he cautioned that getting to Level 4 ADAS (much less Level 5) was still years in the future. Meanwhile, he said that Lucid, with its Dream Drive hardware suite, was aiming no higher than Level 2+ or perhaps Level 3 . . . but that he could give no firm timeframe.

It's one thing to be impatient to get ADAS features that you want badly and that are slow in coming. It's another thing to accuse someone of being dishonest for telling an unwelcome truth.

The difference between Musk's and Rawlinson's approach is that Musk spared us the unwelcome truth, apparently understanding that his most vocal acolytes would prefer it that way.

Lucid has certainly not taken the Tesla approach entirely, but they did make some ambitious claims about DreamDrive Pro at launch and charged $10,000 based on those promises. To date, the DreamDrive Pro additions have been quite disappointing, with the only notable addition being Lane Change Assist. I argue that Drive Assist wasn’t an addition because the car should have had it from the beginning. They also mentioned aiming for Level 3 capabilities, which quickly faded away, and Highway Pilot, which I assume is the “Hands Free Assist” they’re currently working on. Three years on, there hasn’t been much significant progress in advancing DreamDrive Pro.

This is the problem I have. Now DDPro 2 is out how much time and money is going to be spent on DDPro 1? You can argue that Lucid didn't promise FSD but they did make promises, charged people $10,000 and have been REALLY slow to deliver anything. At least with Tesla, while it's not offering FSD they're certainly pushing out regular updates to improve \ evolve it which is a lot more than I can say for Lucid. In this case I don't see Lucid any better than Tesla. They charged $10K and 3 years on offered very minimal in return.

 

[BS8899]

Lucid has certainly not taken the Tesla approach entirely, but they did make some ambitious claims about DreamDrive Pro at launch and charged $10,000 based on those promises. To date, the DreamDrive Pro additions have been quite disappointing, with the only notable addition being Lane Change Assist. I argue that Drive Assist wasn’t an addition because the car should have had it from the beginning. They also mentioned aiming for Level 3 capabilities, which quickly faded away, and Highway Pilot, which I assume is the “Hands Free Assist” they’re currently working on. Three years on, there hasn’t been much significant progress in advancing DreamDrive Pro.

This is the problem I have. Now DDPro 2 is out how much time and money is going to be spent on DDPro 1? You can argue that Lucid didn't promise FSD but they did make promises, charged people $10,000 and have been REALLY slow to deliver anything. At least with Tesla, while it's not offering FSD they're certainly pushing out regular updates to improve \ evolve it which is a lot more than I can say for Lucid. In this case I don't see Lucid any better than Tesla. They charged $10K and 3 years on offered very minimal in return.

Your articulation of the disappointment RE: DDP is spot-on! Like you, I wasn't expecting FSD. But for $10,000, the features that are currently on DDP is about the same as (or even less than) on competitive cars that don't charge extra for DD-like features.

About 10mo ago, I was at an EA station charging my AGT. A fellow Lucid owner was there so we started talking. He just leased his Lucid, I think it was a Touring or a Pure. He asked me if he should have taken the DDP trim/option. I told him no, as I saw no benefits and Lucid's DA technology was/is behind its competitors. I wish it were different!

 

[Negan1000]

Agree with you. DDP on the Air is still much short of Lucid's original vision and positioning.

Earlier, I posted the question about how Lidar is being used on the current Lucid Air. First, no one seems to know the answer. Second, several responses suggest that I shouldn't be pre-occupied with how Lidar is being used or not...in other words, just shut up and enjoy the car!

LiDAR not used in the rain.

 

[hydbob]

Your articulation of the disappointment RE: DDP is spot-on! Like you, I wasn't expecting FSD. But for $10,000, the features that are currently on DDP is about the same as (or even less than) on competitive cars that don't charge extra for DD-like features.

About 10mo ago, I was at an EA station charging my AGT. A fellow Lucid owner was there so we started talking. He just leased his Lucid, I think it was a Touring or a Pure. He asked me if he should have taken the DDP trim/option. I told him no, as I saw no benefits and Lucid's DA technology was/is behind its competitors. I wish it were different!

I'm different but the surround view camera and other safety stuff is worth the $10k I paid. It was smart to break it out into DD premium. The self drive crap is all fluffy and what people focus on but the other stuff is actually more important. Rear traffic and pedestrian alert has already paid for DD pro many times over.

 

[BS8899]

I'm different but the surround view camera and other safety stuff is worth the $10k I paid. It was smart to break it out into DD premium. The self drive crap is all fluffy and what people focus on but the other stuff is actually more important. Rear traffic and pedestrian alert has already paid for DD pro many times over.

I'm different but the surround view camera and other safety stuff is worth the $10k I paid. It was smart to break it out into DD premium. The self drive crap is all fluffy and what people focus on but the other stuff is actually more important. Rear traffic and pedestrian alert has already paid for DD pro many times over.

To each his/her own! I am glad you are happy with paying $10k extra for DDP, I am not in that camp, not because I dislike DDP. But the slow roll-out, anemic features, and extra charge make Lucid non-competitive!

Difference in personal preferences aside, the real question for Lucid is whether they can continue to charge $10k for these "options" that are mostly standard on other cars.

My 2017 Lexus RX450H ($58k MSRP) had surround view, DA, etc.. My 2023 R1S ($72k after EV incentives) has more advanced DA than my AGT. It also has pedestrian info. And it has sentry mode. My $~$140k AGT (bought in Oct 2022) is less equipped in these areas.

Point is, I love of these DA/safety technologies. But the market has evolved. What once was considered gee-wiz features are now mostly standard (at least on the higher trims). Lucid's biz model and slow-motion roll out of these features and charging extra isn't going to cut it!

 

[Adnillien]

LiDAR not used in the rain.

Where did this come from?