Dream Drive 2????

[borski]

Most Cars with ADAS features are programmed to ignore stationary objects while traveling at highway speeds. Lucid’s owners manual says the same thing even with LIDAR.

Every test in this video was at 40mph, not highway speeds.

 

[momo3605]

Every test in this video was at 40mph, not highway speeds.

Yea it would be interesting to see how other cars would behave. But the headline seems clickbait-y... “Self driving car” but it’s not running on the self-driving stack. Would have been an easy thing to try I’m just saying, I’m not sure there’s any obvious takeaways from it.

 

[borski]

Yea it would be interesting to see how other cars would behave. But the headline seems clickbait-y... “Self driving car” but it’s not running on the self-driving stack. Would have been an easy thing to try I’m just saying, I’m not sure there’s any obvious takeaways from it.

The obvious takeaway is that LiDAR sees things just vision cannot. In order for the Tesla not to crash it *had* to be in Autopilot. The other vehicle was *only* being manually driven and relying on safety features. Not being in autopilot would have made the Tesla perform even worse. FSD would not have saved it.

This isn’t rocket science, as much as Elon loves to claim he’s a rocket scientist. It is obvious to any engineer that cameras have flaws and can be fooled. Lidar can too, but not as easily, and not in the same ways.

Using both is better for sensing objects and reacting to them. No matter what Tesla or Elon say.

That’s the takeaway. That’s what this tested. The end, I hope lol

 

[Blue Lectroid]

I’m just saying, I’m not sure there’s any obvious takeaways from it.

I suggest that you rewatch (and pay close attention) from 10:00 to 10:50 in the video. He made a point that he WAS using FSD for all remaining tests. And, at least for me, there are very obvious takeaways...Tesla's product is currently vastly inferior to ADAS systems that fully integrate LIDAR. I don't really understand how you do not take this away from that test, but let me ask this...with which system would you be more comfortable personally standing in front of the on coming car on a foggy night? And we are "imminently" (Tesla's "timing") close to having millions of Teslas roaming the streets on FSD with optical only tech? Hmmm...

 

[Blue Lectroid]

The obvious takeaway is that LiDAR sees things just vision cannot. In order for the Tesla not to crash it *had* to be in Autopilot. The other vehicle was *only* being manually driven and relying on safety features. Not being in autopilot would have made the Tesla perform even worse. FSD would not have saved it.

This isn’t rocket science, as much as Elon loves to claim he’s a rocket scientist. It is obvious to any engineer that cameras have flaws and can be fooled. Lidar can too, but not as easily, and not in the same ways.

Using both is better for sensing objects and reacting to them. No matter what Tesla or Elon say.

That’s the takeaway. That’s what this tested. The end, I hope lol

CORRECT!

 

[borski]

I suggest that you rewatch (and pay close attention) from 10:00 to 10:50 in the video. He made a point that he WAS using FSD for all remaining tests. And, at least for me, there are very obvious takeaways...Tesla's product is currently vastly inferior to ADAS systems that fully integrate LIDAR. I don't really understand how you do not take this away from that test, but let me ask this...with which system would you be more comfortable personally standing in front of the on coming car on a foggy night? And we are "imminently" (Tesla's "timing") close to having millions of Teslas roaming the streets on FSD with optical only tech? Hmmm...

Autopilot, not FSD. Separate systems, but both use vision and both have this problem.

 

[Blue Lectroid]

Autopilot, not FSD. Separate systems, but both use vision and both have this problem.

Sorry, used the wrong terminology…thank u for clarifying. It is the same sensors suite, so presumably would have the same outcome…

 

[BS8899]

@BS8899 watch this:

Yes, I watched this video a couple of days ago when it was posted.

I think @borski is reacting to a prior post when I asked "how does Lucid use the LiDAR sensors installed in the Air?"

I am NOT a Tesla fan. Even tough I am a EV Enthusiast and I think Tesla made EVs real to the public and created the EV industry infrastructure (e.g., charging stations), I never owned a Tesla because I think Tesla over-promise and under-deliver. I don't trust FSD.

My Lucid Air GT is my first EV. I had a Honda Clarity (PHEV) before. It is now my son's car. Great car!

Let me clarify a few points:

> (typical) humans see using binocular vision. Binocular vision can detect depth and movements. And, to a large extent, most trained and experienced human drivers were able to navigate driving pretty well. Yes, humans can be fooled. But achieving even human-level visual discrimination is not an easy feat for a machine.
>Tesla, who originally investigated the use of LiDAR to augment binocular vision for FSD, eventually abandoned LiDAR (and other augmentations), declaring they can implement FSD with just binocular vision with two offset cameras. I don't know their real reasons. I suspect it might be related to cost and marginal benefits.
> some car manufacturers, Lucid as an example, decided to stay the course with LiDAR.

With respect to my original post, I was asking HOW Lucid is using the installed LiDAR and what are the benefits/ differentiation/limitations compared to binocular vision using cameras.

I was in no way endorsing one over the other.

To be clear, I am skeptical about binocular vision-only FSD. But I am also puzzled by the real-benefits of a simple front-facing array LiDAR and Lucid's implementation, hence my question.

I will explain below.
> LiDAR is implied as a quantum leap from binocular vision FSD. This is based on the ability of LiDAR to QUANTITATIVELY range the obstructions ahead of it, like a RADAR. And a fully decked-out EV like Waymo seems to navigate traffic graciously. I live in the Phoenix area and have seen LiDAR-equipped autonomous cars roaming the streets for the past decade. I have used Waymo before. They are truly impressive!
> Lucid's linear, front-facing LiDAR array is a small subset of what Waymo has done.
>as implied in the video @borski referred to, LiDAR can (potentially) discern ambiguous scenes better than a binocular, camera-only, implementation. I believe that is true.

But that wasn't my question.

> my question was....how is LUCID using its front-only LiDAR sensor and how is it integrated into the ADAS system to improve driving safety?

I have yet to get an informed reply to my question.

I am not expert enough to give a dissertation on LiDAR. But I will point out a few relevant factors:

> the reason why your eyes, with binocular vision, can discern depth is not because of your individual eyeballs. Your BRAIN is the "computer" that make that determination, by comparing the (slightly) spatially offset images returned from your eyeballs (or the binocular camera sensors). Thus, Tesla is not wrong in that if you have a powerful-enough computer to process the binocular images from the two cameras, IN THEORY, FSD can be as good as a human driver.
> LiDAR on the other hand, generates a quantitative return signal images that can map Space Mountain and detect the false image ahead of it because LiDAR would have detected the flat landscape mural as a barrier.

But both of these scenarios require a powerful "computer", or your brain, to process the information in real-time. Does Lucid have the capability to do that?

Footnotes:
> I use LiDAR in my non-vehicular activities. I am pursuing building an ADU attached to my existing home. In this project, we are going to use LiDAR scan to map the construction area to generate a topo-map and ensure the mating of the new ADU to the existing house.
> like mapping Space Mountain, my ADU project requires LiDAR scans, but not real-time analysis and real-time decisions based on the LiDAR data. It is "pedestrian".
> In case you are not aware, the last couple of generations of iPhones and iPads (top SKUs) have built-in LiDAR. But you have to buy an APP to use it. It is not "real-time" either (in terms of analytics).
> using LiDAR data to evoke actions (e.g., "collision avoidance" would require "real-time" data processing. Part of the question I raised pertains to whether Lucid (and other EV vendors) have the on-board computing power to use LiDAR in real-time, other than just ranging.

 

[borski]

> some car manufacturers, Lucid as an example, decided to stay the course with LiDAR.

All other car manufacturers. Not some.

 

[BS8899]

All other car manufacturers. Not some.

So, is the following incorrect?

 

[BS8899]

So, is the following incorrect?

View attachment 27291

Also, my specific point with respect to Lucid is:

> LiDAR sensors, without the associated computing power and software to facilitate "real-time" self-drive functions, is nothing more than a raging/measurement device (akin to my pedestrian architectural measurements). The LiDAR + "real-time" computing/algorithm are key to using LiDAR in ADAS. Otherwise, it is nothing more than a ranging device, perhaps useful for parking your car.

Do either the Air or the Gravity have the computing HW/SW to make LiDAR useful in ADAS?

 

[borski]

So, is the following incorrect?

View attachment 27291

Are you asking me whether someone else’s random speculation about Rivian is correct? I have not the fondest idea, nor do I care.

Moreover, my point is that not a single other manufacturer went to a vision-only approach, not that every other manufacturer already uses lidar. Some don’t yet. But all likely will.

All do use a sensor suite. Only Tesla uses cameras only.

Mea culpa, I guess.

 

[borski]

Also, my specific point with respect to Lucid is:

> LiDAR sensors, without the associated computing power and software to facilitate "real-time" self-drive functions, is nothing more than a raging/measurement device (akin to my pedestrian architectural measurements). The LiDAR + "real-time" computing/algorithm are key to using LiDAR in ADAS. Otherwise, it is nothing more than a ranging device, perhaps useful for parking your car.

Do either the Air or the Gravity have the computing HW/SW to make LiDAR useful in ADAS?

Yes.

 

[BS8899]

Yes.

can you point me to a source where I can get educated on how LiDAR is used on Lucid vehicles?

Separately, I own a R1S. I am unaware that it has a LiDAR sensor or, if it has one, it is being used. Again, I'd be happy to be enlightened. Yes. Rivian experimented with LiDAR in the past. I am unaware they have deployed LiDAR in their products.

I am a fan of LiDAR. But I am hard-pressed to find a credible example on its actual use.

 

[borski]

can you point me to a source where I can get educated on how LiDAR is used on Lucid vehicles?

That’s not the question I said yes to.

 

[momo3605]

That’s not the question I said yes to.

Your answers are getting confusing. Would be better if you can expand on the “yes” “no” answers so we’re not guessing what you’re referring to.

I think the simple question @BS8899 is asking is HOW is Lucid using LiDAR in a way that improves their ADAS over competitors that use vision and/or radar? Lucid’s DDP continue to throw up warning messages when it’s raining and disable checks for stationary objects above 50mph. And Lucid DDP performs quite poorly in most comparison reviews such as the OOS hog back test

 

[borski]

Your answers are getting confusing. Would be better if you can expand on the “yes” “no” answers so we’re not guessing what you’re referring to.

I think the simple question @BS8899 is asking is HOW is Lucid using LiDAR in a way that improves their ADAS over competitors that use vision and/or radar? Lucid’s DDP continue to throw up warning messages when it’s raining and disable checks for stationary objects above 50mph. And Lucid DDP performs quite poorly in most comparison reviews such as the OOS hog back test

The question I answered “yes” to was “Do either the Air or the Gravity have the computing HW/SW to make LiDAR useful in ADAS?”

I don’t have the answer for precisely how Lucid uses LiDAR; nobody but Lucid has that answer. I do know Lucid uses the LiDAR and is not hardware-limited.