What's new

Ceramic coating, window tinting, and wraps

niejelow

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2021
Messages
180
Location
Connecticut, Keywest, Lugano
Cars
Lucid Air Dream P
DE Number
45
Ceramic coatings do not last very long and as you have accessed it does not stop chips. PPF with hydrophobic is incredibly easy to wash. Also get a a soap foamer it does a great job.
 

borski

Staff Member
Moderator
Joined
Nov 19, 2021
Messages
2,125
Cars
Air DE-P, Zenith Red, 21"
DE Number
241
I used Xpel plus which has a hydrophobic impregnated. What would be the purpose of putting on a ceramic coating over the ppf if it is already imbibed with a hydrophobic one? I have used various things film coatings in my manufacturing operation ranging from vacuum deposition to military grade ppfs. It’s just getting money for no appreciable difference.
The good ceramic coatings do a much better job than the hydrophobic coated PPF, in my experience. But it is optional, of course.
 

Cosmo Cruz

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 2, 2022
Messages
184
Location
philly
Cars
Cosmos / Cruz / Aero
DE Number
0
Lucid doesn’t care ... but you keep saying saran wrap and grease coating; please let’s try and use the correct names so we understand each other.
Let me update you on the correct technical terms of art:
Saran Wrap = PPF
grease coating = ceramic goop
 

niejelow

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2021
Messages
180
Location
Connecticut, Keywest, Lugano
Cars
Lucid Air Dream P
DE Number
45
The good ceramic coatings do a much better job than the hydrophobic coated PPF, in my experience. But it is optional, of course.
Singularly a ceramic coating regardless of its properties can not prevent stone chips on the paint to the same degree as a good PPF.
 
Joined
Sep 22, 2022
Messages
10
I used Xpel plus which has a hydrophobic impregnated. What would be the purpose of putting on a ceramic coating over the ppf if it is already imbibed with a hydrophobic one? I have used various things film coatings in my manufacturing operation ranging from vacuum deposition to military grade ppfs. It’s just getting money for no appreciable difference.
So PPF that is "ceramic coated" is technically only impregnated - you get a boost in gloss and some additional chemical resistance but it doesn't replace a traditional coating. We are a Ceramic Pro shop so we install their PPF & Vinyl Base & TopCoat, which are formulated to bond with PPF. PPF is softer than vehicle clear coat, so protecting it is always the best-case scenario.
Ceramic Coating only enhances PPF. The impregnated PPF just holds up better over time vs PPF which is not. That's the big difference. The ceramic just significantly enhances rigidity.

In 12 months when you wash your PPF'd car vs a car that has had PPF, and ceramic coating applied, the coated car will have better hydrophobic every time.

All of our full vehicle PPF installs come with a single-layer coating application on top. That's included whether you want it or not. You can choose to upgrade to multilayers for additional gloss and hydrophobic but putting PPF on a vehicle, without coating it, ceramic film or not, is a giant missed opportunity to deliver value and protection for a client which is why we don't charge extra for that single layer.

I understand if you don't see the value - but shops that are selling you PPF as "ceramic coated" and it "doesn't need a coating" is simply just cutting corners on educating you just to get your to buy PPF. Ceramic-impregnated PPF does a great job and holds up better than non-impregnated but its still not impervious.

Sorry to make my first post a direct response like this - we will continue to develop LUCID content as we continue to get more of them.
 

niejelow

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2021
Messages
180
Location
Connecticut, Keywest, Lugano
Cars
Lucid Air Dream P
DE Number
45
So PPF that is "ceramic coated" is technically only impregnated - you get a boost in gloss and some additional chemical resistance but it doesn't replace a traditional coating. We are a Ceramic Pro shop so we install their PPF & Vinyl Base & TopCoat, which are formulated to bond with PPF. PPF is softer than vehicle clear coat, so protecting it is always the best-case scenario.
Ceramic Coating only enhances PPF. The impregnated PPF just holds up better over time vs PPF which is not. That's the big difference. The ceramic just significantly enhances rigidity.

In 12 months when you wash your PPF'd car vs a car that has had PPF, and ceramic coating applied, the coated car will have better hydrophobic every time.

All of our full vehicle PPF installs come with a single-layer coating application on top. That's included whether you want it or not. You can choose to upgrade to multilayers for additional gloss and hydrophobic but putting PPF on a vehicle, without coating it, ceramic film or not, is a giant missed opportunity to deliver value and protection for a client which is why we don't charge extra for that single layer.

I understand if you don't see the value - but shops that are selling you PPF as "ceramic coated" and it "doesn't need a coating" is simply just cutting corners on educating you just to get your to buy PPF. Ceramic-impregnated PPF does a great job and holds up better than non-impregnated but its still not impervious.

Sorry to make my first post a direct response like this - we will continue to develop LUCID content as we continue to get more of them.
I truly beg to differ with you. The key element is the PPF for protection. Current PPF material has a hydrophobic element impregnated into the material. This allows a very high contact angle for water thus a very good beefing effect and shedding of water. Regardless all PPF material’s will dull over time regardless. The primary reason is the exfoliation of the coating due to different substrates.
 
Joined
Sep 22, 2022
Messages
10
I truly beg to differ with you. The key element is the PPF for protection. Current PPF material has a hydrophobic element impregnated into the material. This allows a very high contact angle for water thus a very good beefing effect and shedding of water. Regardless all PPF material’s will dull over time regardless. The primary reason is the exfoliation of the coating due to different substrates.

No one is arguing the fact that PPF is indeed the key protective element.

Yes, the high contact angle is indeed the primary goal and creates a hydrophobic surface, but the ceramic that is impregnated into PPF (which is usually silicone assisted) doesn't replace the level of contact angle, chemical resistance or gloss as a solvent-delivered ceramic coating. That contact angle of the PPF also fades and can't really be restored, which is why adding ceramic coating on top of PPF is a good idea to help aid in the overall life span of the film, making it easier to clean and adding additional protection.

PPF indeed is the primary protective effort. My post didn't say that PPF wasn't. It was specifically related to the ceramic element in PPF. Not PPF in its entirety?
 

niejelow

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2021
Messages
180
Location
Connecticut, Keywest, Lugano
Cars
Lucid Air Dream P
DE Number
45
No one is arguing the fact that PPF is indeed the key protective element.

Yes, the high contact angle is indeed the primary goal and creates a hydrophobic surface, but the ceramic that is impregnated into PPF (which is usually silicone assisted) doesn't replace the level of contact angle, chemical resistance or gloss as a solvent-delivered ceramic coating. That contact angle of the PPF also fades and can't really be restored, which is why adding ceramic coating on top of PPF is a good idea to help aid in the overall life span of the film, making it easier to clean and adding additional protection.

PPF indeed is the primary protective effort. My post didn't say that PPF wasn't. It was specifically related to the ceramic element in PPF. Not PPF in its entirety?
You are wrong! The hydrophobic element can be reapplied do to the porosity of the PPF.
 
Joined
Sep 22, 2022
Messages
10
You are wrong! The hydrophobic element can be reapplied do to the porosity of the PPF.

*due

That's the solvent-delivered ceramic coating we are talking about. Yes. It can be reapplied. I don't understand how we are confusing this. The ceramic particles infused into the topcoat eventually wear off and don't come back. (meaning the particles IN THE PPF) The ceramic coating added on top of the film is what rejuvenates that. How are we misunderstanding this? No one is saying that the coating can't be reapplied later.

What I am telling you is that if you were to install Ceramic Impregnated PPF and not top it with a real ceramic coating, the hydrophobic properties of the film will eventually disappear and not return. You can use some type of detail spray during your washing but thats not a long term real protective option as its only water delivered with low solid content.

So yes. The ceramic coating applied on top of PPF is what can bring hydrophobics back to life. But applying ceramic coating ontop of new PPF is the best way to ensure the film stays visually clear for much much longer.

I don't understand what you think I am arguing????
 
Last edited:

niejelow

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2021
Messages
180
Location
Connecticut, Keywest, Lugano
Cars
Lucid Air Dream P
DE Number
45
*due

That's the solvent-delivered ceramic coating we are talking about. Yes. It can be reapplied. I don't understand how we are confusing this. The ceramic particles infused into the topcoat eventually wear off and don't come back. (meaning the particles IN THE PPF) The ceramic coating added on top of the film is what rejuvenates that. How are we misunderstanding this? No one is saying that the coating can't be reapplied later.

What I am telling you is that if you were to install Ceramic Impregnated PPF and not top it with a real ceramic coating, the hydrophobic properties of the film will eventually disappear and not return. You can use some type of detail spray during your washing but thats not a long term real protective option as its only water delivered with low solid content.

So yes. The ceramic coating applied on top of PPF is what can bring hydrophobics back to life. But applying ceramic coating ontop of new PPF is the best way to ensure the film stays visually clear for much much longer.

I don't understand what you think I am arguing????
It’s a non sequitur
 

EVCar

Expert Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2022
Messages
477
Location
Scottsdale, AZ
Cars
Reserved Touring
So PPF that is "ceramic coated" is technically only impregnated - you get a boost in gloss and some additional chemical resistance but it doesn't replace a traditional coating. We are a Ceramic Pro shop so we install their PPF & Vinyl Base & TopCoat, which are formulated to bond with PPF.
Since you're the only Pro shop in the forum thus far, can I take advantage of your expertise and pop a quick question?
I've been pondering about periodically putting wax on top of the ceramic-coated PPF.
Is this a good, bad, or crazy idea?
Thanks.
 

hydbob

Staff Member
Moderator
Joined
Nov 14, 2021
Messages
5,510
Cars
Dream P
DE Number
33
Since you're the only Pro shop in the forum thus far, can I take advantage of your expertise and pop a quick question?
I've been pondering about periodically putting wax on top of the ceramic-coated PPF.
Is this a good, bad, or crazy idea?
Thanks.
Bad. Supposedly wax screws up the ceramic coating and makes it LESS hydrophobic
 
Joined
Sep 22, 2022
Messages
10
Since you're the only Pro shop in the forum thus far, can I take advantage of your expertise and pop a quick question?
I've been pondering about periodically putting wax on top of the ceramic-coated PPF.
Is this a good, bad, or crazy idea?
Thanks.
Only if this something like GyeonWax which is a wax meant for coatings. But it should only be installed if the ppf has had an additional coating.
 

borski

Staff Member
Moderator
Joined
Nov 19, 2021
Messages
2,125
Cars
Air DE-P, Zenith Red, 21"
DE Number
241
Singularly a ceramic coating regardless of its properties can not prevent stone chips on the paint to the same degree as a good PPF.
Show me where I said anything opposite of that?

Of course a ceramic coating doesn’t protect the paint; it just makes it hydrophobic and easier to clean.

I was saying the ceramic coating was optional, but beneficial, on top of PPF. It is the PPF that protects the paint. It is the ceramic that enhances the PPF, even if it is impregnated with a ceramic/hydrophobic coating, as @TotalDetailingPA outlined.
 

niejelow

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2021
Messages
180
Location
Connecticut, Keywest, Lugano
Cars
Lucid Air Dream P
DE Number
45
Show me where I said anything opposite of that?

Of course a ceramic coating doesn’t protect the paint; it just makes it hydrophobic and easier to clean.

I was saying the ceramic coating was optional, but beneficial, on top of PPF. It is the PPF that protects the paint. It is the ceramic that enhances the PPF, even if it is impregnated with a ceramic/hydrophobic coating, as @TotalDetailingPA outlined.
The good ceramic coatings do a much better job than the hydrophobic coated PPF, in my experience. But it is optional, of course.
 
Joined
Sep 22, 2022
Messages
10
Thanks.
What about applying ceramic coatings from different brands?
It will depend on your context. Some coatings use a different carrier solvent than others, making them shed other coatings vs bonding with them.

Can you give some more context?
 

EVCar

Expert Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2022
Messages
477
Location
Scottsdale, AZ
Cars
Reserved Touring
It will depend on your context. Some coatings use a different carrier solvent than others, making them shed other coatings vs bonding with them.

Can you give some more context?
My PPF was treated with Adam's Advanced Graphene Coating, which supposedly lasts a couple of years, but I was thinking about rejuvenating it with something like a 303 Graphene Spray Coating after a carwash. Or am I committed to use Adam's line of products?
 

FirstEV

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2021
Messages
159
Cars
DB9 Waiting for AGT
So PPF that is "ceramic coated" is technically only impregnated - you get a boost in gloss and some additional chemical resistance but it doesn't replace a traditional coating. We are a Ceramic Pro shop so we install their PPF & Vinyl Base & TopCoat, which are formulated to bond with PPF. PPF is softer than vehicle clear coat, so protecting it is always the best-case scenario.
Ceramic Coating only enhances PPF. The impregnated PPF just holds up better over time vs PPF which is not. That's the big difference. The ceramic just significantly enhances rigidity.

In 12 months when you wash your PPF'd car vs a car that has had PPF, and ceramic coating applied, the coated car will have better hydrophobic every time.

All of our full vehicle PPF installs come with a single-layer coating application on top. That's included whether you want it or not. You can choose to upgrade to multilayers for additional gloss and hydrophobic but putting PPF on a vehicle, without coating it, ceramic film or not, is a giant missed opportunity to deliver value and protection for a client which is why we don't charge extra for that single layer.

I understand if you don't see the value - but shops that are selling you PPF as "ceramic coated" and it "doesn't need a coating" is simply just cutting corners on educating you just to get your to buy PPF. Ceramic-impregnated PPF does a great job and holds up better than non-impregnated but its still not impervious.

Sorry to make my first post a direct response like this - we will continue to develop LUCID content as we continue to get more of them.
Does ceramic pro's Kavaca PPF require ceramic coating over it as it claims to be impregnated with their ceramic coating?
 
Top