Well here it is Tesla Plaid versus Lucid Air Sapphire on the same day in the same place~ no excuses!

[momo3605]

The Model S Plaid is on 19” Pirelli P Zeros. The Air Sapphire is on 20”/21” Michelin Pilot Sport 4Ss.

PS4S are better tires than Pirelli P Zero “electric”.

Tesla sells the 21” upgrade with PS4S. So what you’re saying is, if the Plaid was on the same tires as the Sapphire, the Plaid would’ve done even better!?

 

[momo3605]

The point I am trying to make here, apparently unsuccessfully, is that I know the sapphire is better than the plaid at everything, including a drag strip. However, I could just get a plaid as a dedicated track car AND another Air(so as Borski said, space as well as dd quality is out of the question). We are then left with handling as well as about 30k extra.

1. I don’t think we know the sapphire is better than the plaid at everything like the video shows. Also we don’t have sapphire ring times either.

2. I think the point you are trying to make is unsuccessfully coming across because the Air is not a value car. You pay more like you pay for Hermes bags or Pateks. It’s a luxury item. You’re not going to convince anyone with the money to buy a sapphire they should buy a cheaper car because value.

 

[xponents]

1. I don’t think we know the sapphire is better than the plaid at everything like the video shows. Also we don’t have sapphire ring times either.

Based on the specs at least, there should be no way the plaid is faster, although I get what you mean.

2. I think the point you are trying to make is unsuccessfully coming across because the Air is not a value car. You pay more like you pay for Hermes bags or Pateks. It’s a luxury item. You’re not going to convince anyone with the money to buy a sapphire they should buy a cheaper car because value.

I am not trying to convince anybody here, this is just my opinion! Also, I am alright with the regular air lineups prices, but not the sapphire ONLY. I don’t understand why my perception of the value is different, probably because of the obvious comparison to the plaid?

 

[xponents]

PS4S are better tires than Pirelli P Zero “electric”.

Tesla sells the 21” upgrade with PS4S. So what you’re saying is, if the Plaid was on the same tires as the Sapphire, the Plaid would’ve done even better!?

Read the below paragraph: he means that without weight reduction, the s with 21s would lose. He probably said that because that is the configuration lucid tested. Or at least that was how I read it?

Basically, if the model s had its better tires as tested by lucid, but no weight reduction, the sapphire would be better.

 

[momo3605]

Based on the specs at least, there should be no way the plaid is faster, although I get what you mean.

Seems like the sapphire needs more perfect conditions to match its marketed performance.

he means that without weight reduction, the s with 21s would lose.

This S was on the shitty 19s though. If the S was on 21s, it would’ve done better. I don’t understand why he’s comparing the tires when the sapphire ALREADY has the tire advantage. Whether the 170lbs weight reduction would even out that advantage…I don’t know, maybe

 

[_DL_]

PS4S are better tires than Pirelli P Zero “electric”.

Tesla sells the 21” upgrade with PS4S. So what you’re saying is, if the Plaid was on the same tires as the Sapphire, the Plaid would’ve done even better!?

No, I’m saying that it’s all about how happy the tire is in the conditions. It’s an oversimplification to call one tire “better”.

In these 55F damp conditions, the Pirelli P Zero can generate more force than the Michelin PS4S.

Raise the ambient temperature slightly and dry the surface a touch, and the Michelin PS4S would be able to generate more force than the Pirelli P Zero.

(Note that my comments are specific to these particular OE spec tires. There is a great deal of difference between different OE’s specs, and between off-shelf designs, of each brand).

Make this an apples-to-apples race by putting each car on its Michelin PS4S, and things would be very different. Hopefully an owner can do that and share the video

 

[xponents]

Seems like the sapphire needs more perfect conditions to match its marketed performance.

Let’s wait for an objective comparison then!

This S was on the shitty 19s though. If the S was on 21s, it would’ve done better. I don’t understand why he’s comparing the tires when the sapphire ALREADY has the tire advantage. Whether the 170lbs weight reduction would even out that advantage…I don’t know, maybe

I think the weight reduction would make the difference, yes. Also, the sapphire uses an ev optimized tire as well, with only the corners having r spec “compound.”

 

[NoseyReporter]

Seems like the sapphire needs more perfect conditions to match its marketed performance.



This S was on the shitty 19s though. If the S was on 21s, it would’ve done better. I don’t understand why he’s comparing the tires when the sapphire ALREADY has the tire advantage. Whether the 170lbs weight reduction would even out that advantage…I don’t know, maybe

I'm not totally convinced the weight had a huge influence on this result. This end result was due to a traction problem.

Wih drag racing, results can change as conditions change. Put these two cars up again each other again on a different day and the results can easily flip.

 

[xponents]

No, I’m saying that it’s all about how happy the tire is in the conditions. It’s an oversimplification to call one tire “better”.

In these 55F damp conditions, the Pirelli P Zero can generate more force than the Michelin PS4S.

Raise the ambient temperature slightly and dry the surface a touch, and the Michelin PS4S would be able to generate more force than the Pirelli P Zero.

(Note that my comments are specific to these particular OE spec tires. There is a great deal of difference between different OE’s specs, and between off-shelf designs, of each brand).

Make this an apples-to-apples race by putting each car on its Michelin PS4S, and things would be very different. Hopefully an owner can do that and share the video

That does make sense, thank you! Any numbers regarding the tires you can throw around?

 

[momo3605]

In these 55F damp conditions, the Pirelli P Zero can generate more force than the Michelin PS4S.

The OE 19s on the Plaid are hard compound low rolling resistance EV tires like the pilot sport EV which never do well in wet conditions anyway. PS4S famously do well in wet conditions on the other hand.

But yes sure! Lets hope someone can find the time to take the two cars in conditions that are optimal for the Sapphire

 

[hydbob]

The OE 19s on the Plaid are hard compound low rolling resistance EV tires like the pilot sport EV which never do well in wet conditions anyway. PS4S famously do well in wet conditions on the other hand.

But yes sure! Lets hope someone can find the time to take the two cars in conditions that are optimal for the Sapphire

I mean, not to be a hater, but arguing with DL about this is moot. There is probably no one better qualified to answer any of these questions than him. I trust him and Hagerty over the video posted. We already know how shitty some reviewers do in making equal conditions across the board for testing. Trust the awesomeness that brought you the Air.

 

[borski]

I mean, not to be a hater, but arguing with DL about this is moot. There is probably no one better qualified to answer any of these questions than him. I trust him and Hagerty over the video posted. We already know how shitty some reviewers do in making equal conditions across the board for testing. Trust the awesomeness that brought you the Air.

Came here to say this.

I would definitely trust, ahem, @_DL_ over @momo3605, given that only one of them has done the head-to-head testing as described.

(also, hi @_DL_, welcome!)

 

[momo3605]

Came here to say this.

I would definitely trust, ahem, @_DL_ over @momo3605, given that only one of them has done the head-to-head testing as described.

(also, hi @_DL_, welcome!)

Last person I would trust to be unbiased would be a Lucid employee.

The only one we know that has done head to head testing is in the OP which y’all are quick to find faults all over in

 

[hydbob]

Last person I would trust to be unbiased would be a Lucid employee.

The only one we know that has done head to head testing is in the OP which y’all are quick to find faults all over in

Lol, you're joking right? You don't think the head of chassis has done more testing than the guy in the video? Hahaha

 

[momo3605]

Lol, you're joking right? You don't think the head of chassis has done more testing than the guy in the video? Hahaha

I’m not joking. Elon makes all sorts of bulls* claims too. You say Tesla’s cybertruck vs 911 stunt right? Lol. Doesnt mean we’re supposed to believe everything that comes out of his mouth. Companies make claims, then people test those claims. Guys in the video tested those claims, you can’t blame them because they didn’t go your way.

 

[Neurio]

I’m not joking. Elon makes all sorts of bulls* claims too. Doesnt mean we’re supposed to believe everything that comes out of his mouth. Companies make claims, then people test those claims. Guys in the video tested those claims, you can’t blame them because they didn’t go your way.

Wait. The Tesla Plaid Channel made a video that showed the Plaid being better? No way!

 

[momo3605]

Wait. The Tesla Plaid Channel made a video that showed the Plaid being better? No way!

I could care less who wins. I don’t own a sapphire or plaid so my resale is not at stake I just watched a video of a plaid launching better than a sapphire. And I have trouble believing that the shittastic pirellis somehow make the difference. You guys can carry on now

 

[borski]

I could care less who wins. I don’t own a sapphire or plaid so my resale is not at stake I just watched a video of a plaid launching better than a sapphire. And I have trouble believing that the shittastic pirellis somehow make the difference. You guys can carry on now

Thanks for the permission.

 

[Bunnylebowski]

Wait. The Tesla Plaid Channel made a video that showed the Plaid being better? No way!

Yeah hell must have frozen over. The comments section about how Lucid sucks and the Sapphire is ugly and Tesla designer Franz is a golden god and mocking the Sapphire owner cuz of the $ he spent only to get beat (on a track with bad conditions and the wrong tires) might be a subtle indicator this video was designed with a certain viewership in mind. Isn’t it interesting how you don’t see Kia or Mercedes or BMW enthusiasts jumping at the chance to hate on Lucid? I’ve met many, they’re all nice people who complimented my Air GT and I complemented their cars too because yes, there are some things each of those cars do well. Tesla owners are nice in person too, just not online or on YouTube haha.

 

[Veritas51683]

Just playing devils advocate here.
Many people in comments are comparing the Sapphire to the Demon 170, in that they are insinuating the manufacturer provided cars with higher performance for demo/marketing purposes, while the actual delivered customer cars are unable to provide the level of performance advertised. Were any of the 9 flat or sub 9 1/4 mile runs done at the release event performed by customer cars, or demo cars which could have been tweaked slightly to offer better performance?

Also, the previous Hagerty comparison to a Plaid was done with a pre-production Sapphire, so maybe that level of dominance is not realistic to expect from a production model?

Bottom line is we need more data from actual vehicles owned by customers! Get your Dragys out or get to a drag strip and represent!