The I-90 Surge by Out of Spec Studios

[tonybot]

Just watched all the details, still have to give the team kudos for staying with it and completing the race. After all that discussion now I think its the somewhat hot take $50K question... Since you didn't really need the full pack and the power of the GT, I wonder if the Pure RWD might have done better with the extra efficiency? It charges pretty much exactly like the Tesla Model 3, has just about the same size pack 84Kwh vs 79.7 kwh. You would have missed the massage seats, but the rest of Lucid Air goodness would be there...

This is an interesting idea! By the way, my Pure has massage seats! They are available as an option. So, if you pick an RWD with that option, you won't miss the massage option either.

 

[Bunnylebowski]

The accuracy of the SOC indication accumulates errors when driving, charging, driving, charging... without stopping and letting the battery rest for multiple hours. The car determines SOC two ways. The most accurate is a temperature corrected voltage after the battery has been resting for several hours. Less accurate is counting electrons (Coulombs ) into and out of the battery. Coulomb counting has errors and those errors accumulate over multiple charging and driving cycles. The BMS will correct for these errors every time the battery rests for several hours. Without that rest there is no correction. Hence, near the end of a drive like yours, the indicated SOC will have more errors and you should give yourself just a bit more margin.

I do believe there is a 3 to 4 kWhr buffer below zero in the Lucid battery. I would not advocate trying to use it but I would have more confidence in being able to use it at the beginning of a trip rather than the end of a very long trip.

I just finished listening to the OOS podcast about the Lucid in the race and this BMS sway you are describing fits with the team and @Shane_SLC observations. I don’t think anyone really is even criticizing the Lucid, the team did an awesome job trying to place as high as possible given the circumstances. What I loved about this race is I felt like I learned a ton about all the cars and new things about EVs even though I’ve had the Lucid for approaching 3 years. If I was going to try and do a race, yeah I guess I’d pick the Taycan, but if I was going to do a race and try and be comfortable and enjoy myself, I’d still pick the Lucid. I think they’re absolutely correct the car is designed to kill it at 70mph but it’s so tightly designed for that a 80 degrees outside temps, etc, that adding speed and changing temps dramatically affects the efficiency. That’s not really a fault, it’s what happens when you have a car engineered to within 1mm of the bleeding edge of what’s feasible in a production EV Sedan. Awesome job @Shane_SLC and thanks for doing this drive and teaching us all!

 

[BS8899]

The recent I-90 Surge outcome provokes some interesting questions.

> Taycan won the race handily, in spite of the facts that it has lower efficiency, less range, and lower peak charge rate compared to Lucid (AGT).
> watching the OoS videos and the "post-mortem" podcasts, it is also evident that Tesla (Model 3) and Ioniq performed extremely well in this long road trip in spite of their "inferior" specs. These entries gave the Lucid AGT a real contest and won over the Lucid. Even if the Lucid Team had not made the error of relying on "the buffer", Lucid would have had a hard time fending off the next 2-3 competitors!

• Reflecting on the outcome, what lessons did we learn?
  • Lucid touts some of the most eye-catching benchmarks such as, efficacy, peak charging rate, speed/acceleration, etc.. But, in real-life usage scenarios, these benchmarks did not translate to results.
  • With the existing hardware (large batteries, Wunderbox, compact power trains, etc.) can these existing building blocks be rebalanced to give the end-user a better balanced platform for real-life use scenarios?

 

[Bunnylebowski]

Here’s my roadtrip. I drove from Providence Rhode Island to Farmington Maine on one charge, arrived 30% without stopping to cbarge, went several places around town, had dinner, stayed at an AirBnB and charged overnight to 80%, then drove the next day to Quebec City again without having to stop to charge. I couldn’t have done that in a Taycan without stopping to charge on the way each day unless I drove 60mph or slower. That’s a more realistic use case for me, so in my case the Lucid beats the Taycan.

 

[JB67]

The errors accumulate with charge/drive cycles so the error will be larger after 3000 miles than after 500 miles. For most normal driving, 500 to 700 miles in a day, the errors are small and less than a couple of percent SOC. After 3000 miles, the errors will be greater but the BMS system is still reading the cell voltage under load so there can be some correction. I do not know how far it can get off but for normal driving, you can ignore it.



NMC batteries have maximum capacity in the 80-90 degree range and maximum lifetime in the 60 to 70 degree range. Battery cell voltage is a function of both temperature and SOC, the SOC and temperature curves are known for the cell chemistry. It is a matter of knowing the temperature to determine SOC, not that there is an ideal for determining SOC. Using the Home Assist API, you can see max and min cell temperature. There is usually several degrees difference between min and max. I believe this is measuring a group of cells not individual cells so even the temperature measurement is not perfect.



SOC is always an estimation so see previous comment.



I do not engineer EVs, I have worked on semiconductor BMS components in the past and have done a fair amount of research on NMC batteries. With your physics background you would enjoy digging into this so please do and share here when you find something new. I am far from an expert.

Thank you @Adnillien, that is incredibly useful!

 

[BS8899]

Here’s my roadtrip. I drove from Providence Rhode Island to Farmington Maine on one charge, arrived 30% without stopping to cbarge, went several places around town, had dinner, stayed at an AirBnB and charged overnight to 80%, then drove the next day to Quebec City again without having to stop to charge. I couldn’t have done that in a Taycan without stopping to charge on the way each day unless I drove 60mph or slower. That’s a more realistic use case for me, so in my case the Lucid beats the Taycan.

I am sure there are trips the Lucid can do and the Taycan's range could not.

But, I grew up in Canda. Farmington Maine to Quebec City is less than 200 miles. The Taycan cannot make it with 80% SoC? That's a surprise!

 

[JB67]

Here's the link to our discussions from last night. My sincere apologies for the connection issues on my side. I'll be recording my own video and sharing it later this week to make up for my lack of input. Please let me know what your thoughts on the podcast video are and if there's anything else I can bring up in my personal video.

What is your personal channel?

 

[Shane_SLC]

Here’s my roadtrip. I drove from Providence Rhode Island to Farmington Maine on one charge, arrived 30% without stopping to cbarge, went several places around town, had dinner, stayed at an AirBnB and charged overnight to 80%, then drove the next day to Quebec City again without having to stop to charge. I couldn’t have done that in a Taycan without stopping to charge on the way each day unless I drove 60mph or slower. That’s a more realistic use case for me, so in my case the Lucid beats the Taycan.

Kyle himself, being a huge Taycan fan, says he'd still take the choose the Lucid as the road tripping vehicle of choice. The insane charging prowess of the Taycan makes it as close to combustion as an EV can get currently, but part of the joy of EV road tripping for many is the slower pace and more frequent stops. You may get from point A to point B faster in the Taycan, but you'll feel a lot better afterwards in the Lucid. Or, like you mentioned, the Lucid can just avoid stopping to charge altogether.

 

[Shane_SLC]

What is your personal channel?

I don't really have a channel, per se. I'd just be uploading it under my personal YouTube account. I've literally only created and posted one video so far, and it was really just to say I tried it.

 

[tonybot]

I don't really have a channel, per se. I'd just be uploading it under my personal YouTube account. I've literally only created and posted one video so far, and it was really just to say I tried it.

I will be on the watch out for your content and will surely subscribe!

 

[Bunnylebowski]

I am sure there are trips the Lucid can do and the Taycan's range could not.

But, I grew up in Canda. Farmington Maine to Quebec City is less than 200 miles. The Taycan cannot make it with 80% SoC? That's a surprise!

Nope not if you’re driving at 75-80mph and there anre elevation changes, at least according to ABRP with the 2024 Taycan.

 

[DBV]

Just one other thought on strategy in general: just because you CAN go 10 mph over the speed limit per the rules, given the efficiency hit on the Lucid in the particular, SHOULD you go 10 over the speed limit? I often go a little under the speed limit if I'm trying to maximize range, and since for reasons other have stated, it's the charging sessions that really kill you in this sort of a race, wouldn't minimizing the number of charging sessions be important?

Most definitely. I want to see the same speed on how the other cars were driven. I routinely drive 10 miles over the speed limit on the freeway, so that has meaning to me. Would like to see Lucid definitely improve in that category and be more like the other cars with that comparison.

 

[kapix]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1849807909699379433

Keep an eye on YouTube tomorrow for the premiere of the I-90 Surge series from Out of Spec Studios! This easily tops the list of my adventures I've had in my 1.5 years of ownership. Can't wait for you all to see it!

I watched the show(s) and saw that they confirmed a few suspicions/opinions: a) EV charging networks have a good bit of 'user experience' work to do, b) almost any new ICE/EV can get comfortably across America with money and three drivers and c) metaphorically, Team Lucid shot themselves in the foot.

There did not to seem to be enough raw data to help with a purchase decision and, in any event, who, except entertainers, 'races' across America with two other drivers in an EV?

Fun show but I don't think there's much here beyond entertainment.

 

[Bunnylebowski]

Huh, I learned a lot, like the absolutely idiotic way DC fast charging is handled in the BMW i7, that while Tesla network is not trouble free it still has an advantage over CCS, that charging curves matter more than you’d think given how close the race was until the last few hundred miles, but also that comfort matters, and that BMS sway can be a thing on continuous driving, and also confirming what I already knew that ICE vehicles are more headache free, but that EVs have made big improvements. If I was cross shopping an i7 and a Lucid, this would make me less likely to get an i7 based on how I road trip. It would make me more likely to consider a Taycan but I’d still prefer the Lucid. I used to turn my nose up at the Taycan’s range, but you can’t deny it can get you to wherever you’re going fast and in style. And I think it’s really damn impressive how well the Model 3 did. I hate the Model 3, but there’s no denying that it is a road-trippable EV, not a bad choice for someone on more of a budget.

 

[illopp00]

Pure RWD charges pretty slow. It would not have fared well

Not sure, I will hold my judgement until Out of Spec gets a 2025 to do a 10% challenge, I bet it's easily able to do 120 miles.

 

[hydbob]

The recent I-90 Surge outcome provokes some interesting questions.

> Taycan won the race handily, in spite of the facts that it has lower efficiency, less range, and lower peak charge rate compared to Lucid (AGT).
> watching the OoS videos and the "post-mortem" podcasts, it is also evident that Tesla (Model 3) and Ioniq performed extremely well in this long road trip in spite of their "inferior" specs. These entries gave the Lucid AGT a real contest and won over the Lucid. Even if the Lucid Team had not made the error of relying on "the buffer", Lucid would have had a hard time fending off the next 2-3 competitors!

• Reflecting on the outcome, what lessons did we learn?
  • Lucid touts some of the most eye-catching benchmarks such as, efficacy, peak charging rate, speed/acceleration, etc.. But, in real-life usage scenarios, these benchmarks did not translate to results.
  • With the existing hardware (large batteries, Wunderbox, compact power trains, etc.) can these existing building blocks be rebalanced to give the end-user a better balanced platform for real-life use scenarios?

I wouldn't say this race was anything close to real-life usage scenario at all, but that may just be me.

 

[borski]

I wouldn't say this race was anything close to real-life usage scenario at all, but that may just be me.

It’s not just you. It’s a fun event, but has extremely little to do with how people actually road trip.

 

[kapix]

Huh, I learned a lot, like the absolutely idiotic way DC fast charging is handled in the BMW i7, that while Tesla network is not trouble free it still has an advantage over CCS, that charging curves matter more than you’d think given how close the race was until the last few hundred miles, but also that comfort matters, and that BMS sway can be a thing on continuous driving, and also confirming what I already knew that ICE vehicles are more headache free, but that EVs have made big improvements. If I was cross shopping an i7 and a Lucid, this would make me less likely to get an i7 based on how I road trip. It would make me more likely to consider a Taycan but I’d still prefer the Lucid. I used to turn my nose up at the Taycan’s range, but you can’t deny it can get you to wherever you’re going fast and in style. And I think it’s really damn impressive how well the Model 3 did. I hate the Model 3, but there’s no denying that it is a road-trippable EV, not a bad choice for someone on more of a budget.

I get it. After 6-ish hours of video I'd like to think that I'd learn something.

Regarding the i7, I think that Kyle said it best when he opined that i7 buyers would not drive but fly. I don't think that the i7 demographic is much interested in charging curves and BMS stats.

As for the Taycan...impressive but given the speed limit of the race why a Porsche (with a Porsche price)?

Of course, the Model 3/Supercharger network combination was more than up to the challenge. As I've told my friends and family, the only reason to buy a Tesla is the Tesla charging network. Almost every other EV can do what the Tesla cars can do and a lot of them do it better (although, perhaps not cheaper.)

For me, road-tripping does NOT mean road-racing. It means seeing what can't be seen from the air in spacious comfort. Hence, my 2024 Air Touring with lots of road trip miles on it.

Generally, I like the Out of Spec stuff but too often it veers into the weeds for my tastes. Just sayin'.

 

[BS8899]

Nope not if you’re driving at 75-80mph and there anre elevation changes, at least according to ABRP with the 2024 Taycan.

The net elevation change from Farmington to Quebec City is ~100ft. 75-80mph would be substantially above the speed limit (90km/hr) on that stretch of the Quebec highways. The higher speed you preferred would actually favor the Taycan as the Lucid's efficiency drops off faster than the Taycan at higher speeds. I don't know what efficiency/range data ABRP use to do its calculations. If it is EPA rating, Lucid's numbers are over-stated and Taycan's range is under-stated.

 

[Bobby]

I would’ve liked them to impose a set of rules upon themselves that are more realistic and applicable to actual EV owners. For example, never allow any car to get below 10%, plan your charging stops accordingly. If I were driving on a long trip, even 10% would stress me out. I’d more likely plan it for 20%. That said, it certainly gets more clicks if you have something more sensational in the story.
I’m also not entirely sure about the premise of the event in the first place. If my goal to be to get to someplace as fast as possible, I would probably not choose to drive at all, and if I did, it wouldn’t be an EV. If I wanted to take a road trip and enjoy some of the sites, that would make more sense.