Rivian Engineering

[Daniel2022AT]

Interesting article in the WSJ yesterday about Rivian, in search of being the best, they have severely over engineered the vehicles such that they are inherently high cost, unprofitable, and too heavy/inefficient. In a rush to market the thought was designs could be optimized down the road. It probably would be better to get it right the first time.

The break even price point at scale (200,000 units per year) is something like $20k above current pricing.

I’ve heard some good things about Rivian as a product except for horrible efficiency. If the cost exceeds the price point that is a recipe for long term failure.

The Lucid Air weighs maybe 1,000-1,500 lbs less (cost is somewhat correlated to weight) and is priced say equal to $40,000 more. That’s is a much more balanced economic model.

 

[Drendino]

I read this twice to see if there was a point. Couldn’t find it.

 

[xponents]

The article was a hit piece IMO. Rivian forum members also seem to agree.

For Rivian, r2 is all or nothing. They could become a superpower with it.

Also, the lucid is 77k and the r1s 78k.. where did the 20k come from? Just asking.

 

[Tesla2.0]

Interesting article in the WSJ yesterday about Rivian, in search of being the best, they have severely over engineered the vehicles such that they are inherently high cost, unprofitable, and too heavy/inefficient. In a rush to market the thought was designs could be optimized down the road. It probably would be better to get it right the first time.

The break even price point at scale (200,000 units per year) is something like $20k above current pricing.

I’ve heard some good things about Rivian as a product except for horrible efficiency. If the cost exceeds the price point that is a recipe for long term failure.

The Lucid Air weighs maybe 1,000-1,500 lbs less (cost is somewhat correlated to weight) and is priced say equal to $40,000 more. That’s is a much more balanced economic model.

I actually agree with Rivian approach of focusing on get to immerse into market fast then concern for optimization of cost efficiency later. They didn’t aim for vertical integration in grand scale at start, but outsource almost everything except software. They aimed to get to market first and put their products on the road as best marketing tool in road presence and words of mouth. They lost tons of money on every car they make. Now they are gradually making themself leaner toward economy of scale, transitioning in making their own ancillary products, speakers, motors, and unnecessary trim options. Rivian software minus autonomous driving-tech is the closest features to Tesla and in fact their current fast pace may even out-feature Tesla in couple years. Rivian emphasizes on their customer user experience in software development and fully ignore CarPlay and AndroidAuto path.

Comparing Tesla with Rivian EV Flagship…
Tesla Model S/X after 11 years debut, 2023 Q3 delivery after year long of aggressive price cuts yield 15,985 units. Rivian R1T/R1S on 2nd year Q3 is at par yielding 15,564 units in slightly price increase.

WSJ can publish FUD article Rivian is losing tons of money, but Rivian will make more EVs than legacy autos soon right behind Tesla as #2 EV maker.

I agree with @Drendino in other thread. Lucid Gravity has to concern Rivian R1S as rival to beat, not Model-X, EQS SUV, BMW iX or other EV SUV. User experience is important, best product sells itself without excessive advertising.

 

[xponents]

I actually agree with Rivian approach of focusing on get to immerse into market fast then concern for optimization of cost efficiency later. They didn’t aim for vertical integration in grand scale at start, but outsource almost everything except software. They aimed to get to market first and put their products on the road as best marketing tool in road presence and words of mouth. They lost tons of money on every car they make. Now they are gradually making themself leaner toward economy of scale, transitioning in making their own ancillary products, speakers, motors, and unnecessary trim options. Rivian software minus autonomous driving-tech is the closest features to Tesla and in fact their current fast pace may even out-feature Tesla in couple years. Rivian emphasizes on their customer user experience in software development and fully ignore CarPlay and AndroidAuto path.

Comparing Tesla with Rivian EV Flagship…
Tesla Model S/X after 11 years debut, 2023 Q3 delivery after year long of aggressive price cuts yield 15,985 units. Rivian R1T/R1S on 2nd year Q3 is at par yielding 15,564 units in slightly price increase.

WSJ can publish FUD article Rivian is losing tons of money, but Rivian will make more EVs than legacy autos soon right behind Tesla as #2 EV maker.

I agree with @Drendino in other thread. Lucid Gravity has to concern Rivian R1S as rival to beat, not Model-X, EQS SUV, BMW iX or other EV SUV. User experience is important, best product sells itself without excessive advertising.

First impressions are always key was my takeaway! McLaren designed suspension..etc. I really think that with the ix the r1s is also one of the best engineered ev suvs, and one of the best engineered evs with the air.

Also, wouldnt gravity’s target be something like the Escalade iq as in a land yacht? I think the gravity has drug dealer baller potential, the low look with limo tint and matte black would be GOLD and just what lucid needs for its street rep!

 

[vices]

Lol. And lucid isn't losing money on every car they sell? It's the nature of the new car company beast.

 

[quantum]

The article was a hit piece IMO. Rivian forum members also seem to agree.

For Rivian, r2 is all or nothing. They could become a superpower with it.

Also, the lucid is 77k and the r1s 78k.. where did the 20k come from? Just asking.

Not a hit pice. Rivian CEO himself admitted they used more steel than necessary in the front for more rigidity. They also have torch lights in doors, wireless blue tooth music player. These gimmicks add to the cost. Not a very cost effective design Not saying they should skimp like Tesla, but they should have some checks in place. They also overpaid their suppliers. Very inefficient truck- their maxpack has a 180kw battery for 400 mile range. Lucid Air gets 516 miles with a 118kw battery. I bet you the Gravity will use the same battery size and get 400 miles easily. Makes the Lucid Gravity at least 47% more efficient.

 

[Rob Stark]

Not a hit pice. Rivian CEO himself admitted they used more steel than necessary in the front for more rigidity. They also have torch lights in doors, wireless blue tooth music player. These gimmicks add to the cost. Not a very cost effective design Not saying they should skimp like Tesla, but they should have some checks in place. They also overpaid their suppliers. Very inefficient truck- their maxpack has a 180kw battery for 400 mile range. Lucid Air gets 516 miles with a 118kw battery. I bet you the Gravity will use the same battery size and get 400 miles easily. Makes the Lucid Gravity at least 47% more efficient.

Total hit piece. Much of the same attacks can be made at Lucid Motors just substitute Lucid for Rivian.

We don't know what the Max Pack is other than their are no additional cells. Just better chemistry. The original Max Pack was going to be physically larger and be placed in the gear tunnel. It was debated if R1S would get Max Pack and where the extra modules would go. We don't know the kWh. 180 kWh was the original target.

Rivian R1S is a rock crawler while Gravity is a people mover. By definition more efficient but far less capable off road.

Yes, most people don't need or will ever use that off road capability.

No one needs or will ever go 205 mph. And no one needs to go 0-60 in under 2 seconds.

 

[xponents]

Total hit piece. Much of the same attacks can be made at Lucid Motors just substitute Lucid for Rivian.

We don't know what the Max Pack is other than their are no additional cells. Just better chemistry. The original Max Pack was going to be physically larger and be placed in the gear tunnel. It was debated if R1S would get Max Pack and where the extra modules would go. We don't know the kWh. 180 kWh was the original target.

Rivian R1S is a rock crawler while Gravity is a people mover. By definition more efficient but far less capable off road.

Yes, most people don't need or will ever use that off road capability.

No one needs or will ever go 205 mph. And no one needs to go 0-60 in under 2 seconds.

This right here. Think of it as a far better luxury jeep rather than an escalade.(ABSOLUTELY not saying rivians are bad with the metaphor)

 

[Daniel2022AT]

I read this twice to see if there was a point. Couldn’t find it.

The point is that Rivian may never turn a profit due its high manufactured cost.

 

[Tesla2.0]

No one needs or will ever go 205 mph. And no one needs to go 0-60 in under 2 seconds.

R1S Top speed is software capped at 110mph. It’s not enough for me but at same time sufficient for 7000 lb beast on the road.

 

[Tesla2.0]

The point is that Rivian may never turn a profit due its high manufactured cost.

That’s part challenge all startups have to face. Optimizing manufacturing efficiency is paramount, or else just irresponsibly burning investors’ money.

 

[Steveinarizona]

They also overpaid their suppliers. Very inefficient truck- their maxpack has a 180kw battery for 400 mile range. Lucid Air gets 516 miles with a 118kw battery.

One can't fairly compare the efficiency of a sedan with an SUV or truck. Sedans are inherently more efficient.

But, like many here, I don't believe what the WSJ says unless they back it up with verifiable facts.

 

[Shuasha]

The point is that Rivian may never turn a profit due its high manufactured cost.

The loss per vehicle has been going down steadily over the past year, they'll eventually be profitable.

1. Q3'22 = $139,277
2. Q4'22 = $124,162
3. Q1'23 = $67,329
4. Q2'23 = $32,594

 

[Daniel2022AT]

I think Rivian and Lucid have executed very different product design strategies. I disagree about substituting one name for the other. Rivian has chosen heft and brawn. Yes it is a truck but automotive engineering is always about making strength-weight-cost trade offs. Lucid has focused much more on elegant engineering. The focus on efficiency is one related aspect. It is Lucid that is winning awards and commendations for engineering excellence not Rivian. Rivian vehicles sell for $76,000-$90,000. Lucid vehicles sell for $77,000-150,000. ($250,000 including Sapphire). The business model that works is the one that creates high value. Lucid is miles ahead of Rivian on that scale.

 

[Steveinarizona]

I think Rivian and Lucid have executed very different product design strategies. I disagree about substituting one name for the other. Rivian has chosen heft and brawn. Yes it is a truck but automotive engineering is always about making strength-weight-cost trade offs. Lucid has focused much more on elegant engineering. The focus on efficiency is one related aspect. It is Lucid that is winning awards and commendations for engineering excellence not Rivian. Rivian vehicles sell for $76,000-$90,000. Lucid vehicles sell for $77,000-150,000. ($250,000 including Sapphire). The business model that works is the one that creates high value. Lucid is miles ahead of Rivian on that scale.

I agree with you on the trade off. The business model for Rivian and Lucid is still to be determined. Lucid currently has the advantage that there are not a lot of sedan alternatives and it is efficient; Rivian has the advantage that it is the more popular cross over style. I think they appeal to very different constituencies. How well each will do is still to be settled.

 

[Bobby]

I agree with you on the trade off. The business model for Rivian and Lucid is still to be determined. Lucid currently has the advantage that there are not a lot of sedan alternatives and it is efficient; Rivian has the advantage that it is the more popular cross over style. I think they appeal to very different constituencies. How well each will do is still to be settled.

Rivian stock way down today.

 

[Drendino]

I agree with you on the trade off. The business model for Rivian and Lucid is still to be determined. Lucid currently has the advantage that there are not a lot of sedan alternatives and it is efficient; Rivian has the advantage that it is the more popular cross over style. I think they appeal to very different constituencies. How well each will do is still to be settled.

I’m not sure I agree that Rivian fits into the crossover market. The R1S is a full fledged boxy SUV, while I think that the Gravity will eventually compete in the crossover market.

 

[Daniel2022AT]

The market segment point is a different topic. The market for large luxury sedans is small. BMW 7, Audi A8. It was the market entry choice for Lucid for that very reason. The broader point is this: is a nearly 7,000 lb. vehicle, with a 130KWh battery, which achieves 2.5 mi/KWh best case, the next gen future of automotive transportation for this planet? That vehicle will never generate a profit on a fully loaded basis at its price point nor will it achieve any social or carbon reduction goals.

 

[quantum]

One can't fairly compare the efficiency of a sedan with an SUV or truck. Sedans are inherently more efficient.

But, like many here, I don't believe what the WSJ says unless they back it up with verifiable facts.

But the Lucid Gravity SUV will be miles ahead of Rivian's efficiency.