Observations HiRes - Audio source quality limits for Lucid Stereo System

[DreamTour]

I know i am likely in the very small minority of folks who will ever notice this but wanted to share my experimental results in case anyone else wanted to dip into hifi.

As background, I've invested in a full aftermarket build of my Lucid Air's sound system with top of the line components and custom tuning.

Details here for background: https://lucidowners.com/threads/luc...lity-configuration-of-the-factory-audio.4647/

Since I've had this system for a while I started playing around with Tidal, Qobuz, Carplay, and USB audio.

Here are my observations. (Happy to share my experimentation methods if anyone is interested)

1.) The native Tidal App for Lucid I think is bitrate limited even if you set it for Hifi. I think this is a limitation of the bandwidth allocated via the onboard cell modem of the car. Or if not the modem, it's the contracted bitrate that Lucid pays the cell service provider. In my estimation it's capped at 320 kbps. This bitrate limits exists for both stereo and Atmos.

2.) If you use Carplay + Tidal or Qobuz set to stream at CD quality audio (16 bit 44 khz) you will get a noticeable improvement in source quality over the native tidal app.

3.) If you try to stream Hi-Res (24 bit) from either source, it consumes a ton of cell bandwidth, but you don't hear a difference over CD quality stream (This is a carplay limitation which is capped at 16 bit audio, which is strange since wifi has plenty of bandwidth to support such a stream)

3.) A Ripped CD onto USB in FLAC format that's 16 bit 44 Khz sounds more detailed than the Carplay + Tidal or Qobuz stream or equivalent quality. While on paper it's the same, I think Carplay does something \, perhaps downsampling the audio or there's some software limitation over carplay.

4.) My latest experiment: Downloading HiRes (24bit audio + various sampling rates) from Qobuz encoded on FLAC onto a USB shows another jump in detail (although this jump is very subtle compared to 320 kbps -> Cd quality which is more like 720 kbps when compressed)

I suspect those with the stock SSPro system could hear the difference between the native tidal app and carplay + tidal streamed at 16 bit CD quality, but never tested it myself (someone should try it)

Note: Carplay w/ tidal does not support Atmos formats. So using carplay would be for stereo only.

I doubt the stock SSPro system would show any improved detail on 24bit audio over 16 bit audio but once could try and find out.

Anyone else play with Audio sources and can tell the difference?

 

[borski]

I suspect those with the stock SSPro system could hear the difference between the native tidal app and carplay + tidal streamed at 16 bit CD quality, but never tested it myself (someone should try it)

I can. Most people definitely can’t.

But I use the native app for Atmos constantly, because honestly I like the “tricks.” I wish CarPlay could do Atmos.

 

[OCDC]

Anyone else play with Audio sources and can tell the difference?

I can. The Lucid native Tidal app at Max-res sounds the best to my ears. I was experimenting with some multi-channel (5.1, 7.1) 24-bit FLAC recordings via USB a while back. The Lucid app would play them, but I'm not convinced it was being fully decoded as multi-channel. I need to resuscitate that effort. I signed up for a Dolby license so I could attempt playing full uncompressed Atmos tracks in the Air. (The streaming Atmos is nice for the positional audio, but it sounds like MP3 to me. Too much detail is lost. Entire instruments go missing sometimes compared to even CD quality.) The licensing took some time to get approved for, so I lost momentum on that project. I'll get back to it once I've got some other projects finished.

 

[borski]

(The streaming Atmos is nice for the positional audio, but it sounds like MP3 to me. Too much detail is lost. Entire instruments go missing sometimes compared to even CD quality.)

Keep in mind it's not just an encoding; it is a completely new mix, which means the details that are lost may have been intentional choices by the mixing engineer, and they may highlight other things instead, and so on. That may be part of why it sounds different, in that it's basically a different performance entirely.

 

[OCDC]

Keep in mind it's not just an encoding; it is a completely new mix, which means the details that are lost may have been intentional choices by the mixing engineer, and they may highlight other things instead, and so on. That may be part of why it sounds different, in that it's basically a different performance entirely.

Fair point. I also need to test this from the back seat. The sound stage is different back there.

 

[DreamTour]

I can. The Lucid native Tidal app at Max-res sounds the best to my ears. I was experimenting with some multi-channel (5.1, 7.1) 24-bit FLAC recordings via USB a while back. The Lucid app would play them, but I'm not convinced it was being fully decoded as multi-channel. I need to resuscitate that effort. I signed up for a Dolby license so I could attempt playing full uncompressed Atmos tracks in the Air. (The streaming Atmos is nice for the positional audio, but it sounds like MP3 to me. Too much detail is lost. Entire instruments go missing sometimes compared to even CD quality.) The licensing took some time to get approved for, so I lost momentum on that project. I'll get back to it once I've got some other projects finished.

Do you know if the lucid audio app would be able to read this file format? How would you get the media for it? (Other than generate it yourself?)

 

[GoFast]

I know i am likely in the very small minority of folks who will ever notice this but wanted to share my experimental results in case anyone else wanted to dip into hifi.

As background, I've invested in a full aftermarket build of my Lucid Air's sound system with top of the line components and custom tuning.

Details here for background: https://lucidowners.com/threads/luc...lity-configuration-of-the-factory-audio.4647/

Since I've had this system for a while I started playing around with Tidal, Qobuz, Carplay, and USB audio.

Here are my observations. (Happy to share my experimentation methods if anyone is interested)

1.) The native Tidal App for Lucid I think is bitrate limited even if you set it for Hifi. I think this is a limitation of the bandwidth allocated via the onboard cell modem of the car. Or if not the modem, it's the contracted bitrate that Lucid pays the cell service provider. In my estimation it's capped at 320 kbps. This bitrate limits exists for both stereo and Atmos.

2.) If you use Carplay + Tidal or Qobuz set to stream at CD quality audio (16 bit 44 khz) you will get a noticeable improvement in source quality over the native tidal app.

3.) If you try to stream Hi-Res (24 bit) from either source, it consumes a ton of cell bandwidth, but you don't hear a difference over CD quality stream (This is a carplay limitation which is capped at 16 bit audio, which is strange since wifi has plenty of bandwidth to support such a stream)

3.) A Ripped CD onto USB in FLAC format that's 16 bit 44 Khz sounds more detailed than the Carplay + Tidal or Qobuz stream or equivalent quality. While on paper it's the same, I think Carplay does something \, perhaps downsampling the audio or there's some software limitation over carplay.

4.) My latest experiment: Downloading HiRes (24bit audio + various sampling rates) from Qobuz encoded on FLAC onto a USB shows another jump in detail (although this jump is very subtle compared to 320 kbps -> Cd quality which is more like 720 kbps when compressed)

I suspect those with the stock SSPro system could hear the difference between the native tidal app and carplay + tidal streamed at 16 bit CD quality, but never tested it myself (someone should try it)

Note: Carplay w/ tidal does not support Atmos formats. So using carplay would be for stereo only.

I doubt the stock SSPro system would show any improved detail on 24bit audio over 16 bit audio but once could try and find out.

Anyone else play with Audio sources and can tell the difference?

1) It has nothing top do with Lucid. It is the bitrate that the app, supplied by Tidal, provides.

 

[OCDC]

Do you know if the lucid audio app would be able to read this file format? How would you get the media for it? (Other than generate it yourself?)

It played a multi-channel FLAC file I derived from an uncompressed Atmos MKV file. I cannot attest to if the Lucid was decoding all of the channels; I need to redo this experiment with a file that has discrete channel identification to verify that. And I'm certain it wasn't Atmos encoded any longer.

IMHO, I'd like to see Lucid enable playing uncompressed Atmos TrueHD MKV/MKA music files from USB. Eventually. That would really show off how good their sound system is. There isn't much media available in that format, so you have to go hunting for it. Some is download from the publishers, some is on Blu Ray. Physical media is probably the easiest to play correctly with a quality home audio setup if you want to baseline it.

 

[ShyamUS]

Anyone tried the Apple car play wired, with Hi res music downloaded to the iPhone in Apple Music. Technically it should play Hi Res if the DAC in Lucid is able handle Hi Res at 24/96. Because the same music from same iPhone played via a FiiO DAC into a Weston’s Um50 pro sounds great and the DaC states the resolution it’s playing at.

Also is there a way to connect the iPhone and use it as a USB source for playing high res.

Appreciate any thoughts. I invested I. The SSpro on my touring to get the hi res sound. In many ways a car drive has become a prime spot for listening to music uninterrupted, unlike listening to hi end home system with someone from family walks in with a question just when Coltrane is going into a solo in kind of blue so what or Dave Gilmore going into his second solo on comfortably numb.

Anyone one feel this!!!!

 

[OCDC]

There's another thread nearby that mentions Apple only transmits 16-bit audio through CarPlay. That reminds me of another idea I had; have the Air present as a 24-bit 192kHz multi channel USB DAC when you plug in a phone. They could enable a lean music player in the Lucid app and pipe hi-res music in that way. Again, they have more important things to do right now, but that would be a distinguishing feature in the future.

 

[ShyamUS]

Thanks. Guess when one gets used to higher quality of things, the expectations also go up, considering the choices. Honestly I think I enjoyed the same music slipping a cassette tape into my first car a small Suzuki. Kind of Blue, Dark Side and Wall sounded as good…. The problem is once you hear the hi res you cannot unhear it and go back. When one pays top dollars, one expects that level of quality. The German Cars deliver that.

Not happy with a lot of Lucid stuff. Guess I am growing old for the early adopter adventures. Less than couple of months, I am looking for ways to get out of Lucid lease. By the way the car is about 90 miles from my home in NJ at the service center with multiple issues like stuck frunk, charger door not opening, child lock stuck on the back door etc…. Single car, no loaner…

Apologies for my rant…

 

[DreamTour]

You cannot unhear, so true. Now 16 bit CD quality sounds like it's leaving something on the table, as well as poorly mastered tracks.

Strangely i am finding myself looking for decent music that is well mastered rather than just the artist.

 

[idiot900]

1) It has nothing top do with Lucid. It is the bitrate that the app, supplied by Tidal, provides.

To clarify: Tidal supplied the app for Lucid infotainment? Or was the app written in-house at Lucid?

 

[MJAir23TheGoat]

Thanks. Guess when one gets used to higher quality of things, the expectations also go up, considering the choices. Honestly I think I enjoyed the same music slipping a cassette tape into my first car a small Suzuki. Kind of Blue, Dark Side and Wall sounded as good…. The problem is once you hear the hi res you cannot unhear it and go back. When one pays top dollars, one expects that level of quality. The German Cars deliver that.

Not happy with a lot of Lucid stuff. Guess I am growing old for the early adopter adventures. Less than couple of months, I am looking for ways to get out of Lucid lease. By the way the car is about 90 miles from my home in NJ at the service center with multiple issues like stuck frunk, charger door not opening, child lock stuck on the back door etc…. Single car, no loaner…

Apologies for my rant…

Best stock audio I’ve heard is the Burmester system in Porsche/Benz imo it’s miles better than the Air pro.

 

[borski]

To clarify: Tidal supplied the app for Lucid infotainment? Or was the app written in-house at Lucid?

Sounds like Tidal supplied it. Given that the settings panel is just the default Android settings panel for Tidal, my guess is that's correct.

 

[idiot900]

Sounds like Tidal supplied it. Given that the settings panel is just the default Android settings panel for Tidal, my guess is that's correct.

The Spotify native app seems better thought out than the Tidal one to me - if Lucid had written both apps, they'd, I'd guess, be more similar.

 

[Chrry]

I'd like to see Lucid enable playing uncompressed Atmos TrueHD MKV/MKA music files from USB. Eventually. That would really show off how good their sound system is.

This all the way!!!! Best drive and best sound quality. Ooof. What a selling point

 

[truth.b]

I have the SSPro system and I have done several test using various sound sources. For me, Tidal is the best in terms of having access to a large music library with a good "suggested play" algorithm and above average sound quality. Although with Tidal I am convinced that everything is reduce by roughly 3db at the source level. Through various testing I have found that using an USB as the source with the files ripped to *.m4a @ 256K bitrate to be the best balance between size and quality. I have a large library (approx. 7K files), so FLAC was out of the question.

My overall option is that Lucid SSPro system is top shelf when it comes to clarity & volume, but it completely lacks low-end and punch which makes "most" modern music sound weak. I personally think the lack of sub energy is a design choice because when I ran pink noise through the system I was shocked by how loud it was at ~70% volume. I personally think if Lucid provided a sound source adjuster of +/- 4dB and then a break-out of the Sub level in the equalization tab, everyone would have better enjoyment of the system.

 

[Bunnylebowski]

To be honest I feel Lucid’s “lack of bass” complaints must have something to do with their DSP or crossover and not the lack of a true subwoofer. I think with Atmos, which has a dedicated encoded LFE channel, the bass is really satisfying and I can find literally zero to complain about. The same tracks in stereo however do not seem to utilize the low frequencies in the same way as Atmos, in spite of Atmos potentially being more lossy compression than some other formats like FLAC, so a legit minor criticism could be that two channel mixes aren’t as bass-tastic as some other systems like Burmeister or B&W. I must share these two Tidal tracks to prove my assertion, which you must play back in the native Tidal app with HiFi subscription. It’s just inconceivable to me one could find fault with the bass after hearing these two tracks in the correct format:
Billie Eilish BITTERSUITE

Billie Eilish - BITTERSUITE

Listen to BITTERSUITE on your streaming service

tidal.com

INXS Mediate

INXS - Mediate (Atmos Mix)

Listen to Mediate (Atmos Mix) on your streaming service

tidal.com

As far as the discussions regarding investigating how to play back Dolby TruHD Atmos, I cannot envision a way the car could do this. I believe it would require a different codec and not just the DD+ JOC MP4 codec that Tidal uses to stream Atmos. That would require Lucid to pay for it and have it installed on their DSP. I don’t see how an owner could bypass that. Dolby is VERY controlling of their license. Once upon a time when Dolby was beta testing their very first ProTools plug-in capable of AC3 5.1 in the late 1990s I got my hands on a non copy protected version, and let’s just say after that they made their software as uncrackable as their hardware. I’m pretty sure even if you got a Dolby license (my friend Nat has a full license for all formats), the car as far as I can tell cannot accept a decoded stream unless you somehow bypassed the DSP and hardwired your own solution into the amps.

 

[segbrk]

I’m pretty sure even if you got a Dolby license (my friend Nat has a full license for all formats), the car as far as I can tell cannot accept a decoded stream unless you somehow bypassed the DSP and hardwired your own solution into the amps.

You can play DD+ MP4 from USB though. There's just almost no music available to buy in that format, all the actual Atmos music I could find is TrueHD. There are a bunch of things you can buy+download which are confusingly labeled "Atmos TrueHD + MP4," but all those that I looked at are the TrueHD and a non-Atmos 5.1/7.1 MP4. I think if somebody owns the Dolby encoder, they could take those TrueHD streams and convert them to playable DD+ MP4. I looked into it briefly though, and it's not something Dolby makes easy to get, even with money.