NACS (Tesla adapter) versus CCS Megathread

[Alex]

Wouldn't that be issue with GM and Ford too? I still am not sure if this agreement is for current owners or in future models that will have NACS port

I think GM & Ford are still around 450V system, so they should be fine.

 

[thecodingart]

I think GM & Ford are still around 450V system, so they should be fine.

Only high voltage cars are going to experience issues pre gen 4 superchargers.

 

[Tâm]

Tesla NACS Charging: Who Will Be Next And Why?

Ford and General Motors recently signed up for Tesla's North American Charging Standard (NACS) charging connector, which triggered an avalanche. Who will be next?

insideevs.com

Article points:

Start ups Rivian, Lucid... have fewer CCS cars sold, and their bureaucracy is still small now so it's better to not wait. Rivian already incorporated Tesla Magic Dock locations on its navigation map (not hostile to Tesla).

Legacy companies Volkswagen (invests in EA)... might be to big to make a move.

Nissan made its own ChaDeMo but it switched to the winner side CCS, so it might also go with the latest winner NACS (Tesla+Ford+GM=60% EV market) too.

The article thinks South Korea as a whole would switch to NACS once the winner is clearer.

 

[thecodingart]

Tesla NACS Charging: Who Will Be Next And Why?

Ford and General Motors recently signed up for Tesla's North American Charging Standard (NACS) charging connector, which triggered an avalanche. Who will be next?

insideevs.com

Article points:

Start ups Rivian, Lucid... have fewer CCS cars sold, and their bureaucracy is still small now so it's better to not wait. Rivian already incorporated Tesla Magic Dock locations on its navigation map (not hostile to Tesla).

Legacy companies Volkswagen (invests in EA)... might be to big to make a move.

Nissan made its own ChaDeMo but it switched to the winner side CCS, so it might also go with the latest winner NACS (Tesla+Ford+GM=60% EV market) too.

The article thinks South Korea as a whole would switch to NACS once the winner is clearer.

Eh, these articles are sort dumb and just conveniently forget obvious things in their “logic”:

Your Experience With Tesla Superchargers Depends on Much More Than Access and NACS

Being able to use Superchargers or even having the same plugs they use does not mean much when computers have to communicate.

www.autoevolution.com

 

[Tâm]

Eh, these articles are sort dumb and just conveniently forget obvious things in their “logic”:

Your Experience With Tesla Superchargers Depends on Much More Than Access and NACS

Being able to use Superchargers or even having the same plugs they use does not mean much when computers have to communicate.

www.autoevolution.com

Good point! Not smooth indeed.

NACS doesn't mean trouble free for non-Tesla brands.

That's similar to plugging a Lucid into an EA. Same standard but different brands. EA blames Lucid and Lucid blames EA.

So for a trouble-free implementation of a standard, engineers from different brands need to work out the bugs together.

 

[Tâm]

Independent chargers are now stating supporting NACS:

1. Abb E-mobility: "ABB e-mobility North America, a big maker of EV chargers that supplies operators, fleets and retailers, said it will be offering a NACS connector option to its products that it is now designing and testing."
2. AmpUp: "Since our inception, AmpUp has led EV driver and station owner charging best practices. We believe that a comfortable and consistent charging experience is core to customer satisfaction and wide scale EV adoption, and therefore support the North American Charging Standard (NACS). AmpUp will continue to be hardware agnostic to serve the needs of customers, partners, and governments. We are eager to accelerate the transition to electric vehicles with NACS, J1772, CCS, and future standards."

3. Autel Energy

https://twitter.com/x/status/1667555486185537538

4. Blink: "Blink Charging welcomes the "opportunity to work with Tesla on interoperability with cables and connections," a spokesperson said."

5.ChargePoint (CEO Pasquale Romano, Presidential appointment to the National Infrastructure Advisory Council):
"You want to make sure that any car can park in any parking space and use the charger because that's just what's simple for consumers that's just what consumers
want so we're looking to innovate there to make sure that we can adequately support both standards and potentially even go beyond the consumer having to carry that adapter in their car."

6.EVgo: EVgo Chief Commercial Officer Jonathan Levy said the company would continue to "serve all EV drivers no matter what fast charging connector they use" and was working with NACS suppliers to meet drivers' needs.

EVPassport: "EVPassport was early to announce offering EV charging equipment with the widely popular Tesla (NACS) connector back in February of this year, and then we announced the first purchasable DC Fast charger with a Tesla native connector later that same month. Our Lloyd 95kW DC Fast charger not only comes equipped with dual CCS or CCS + Tesla (NACS) but is installable on 208v three phase power, lowering the cost to adopt and increasing utilization by all vehicle brands (no adapters needed)."

7.Flo: "FLO welcomes initiatives to standardize charging hardware in North America because we believe it will help eliminate confusion for EV drivers."

8.FreeWire Technologies: "FreeWire commends the recent announcement by Tesla and Ford to make NACS charging accessible to more vehicles. For a sustainable transition to electric transportation, it is crucial to quickly increase investments and make reliable, publicly accessible fast-charging infrastructure widely available. It will require all charging providers to work together to meet public charging demand, and we support Tesla in making steps towards opening their technology and network. FreeWire has long been a proponent of standardization across the industry as it will make charging more convenient for drivers and allow infrastructure to keep pace with EV adoption nationwide. FreeWire plans to make NACS connectors available on Boost Chargers by mid 2024."

 

[Tâm]

With Ford and GM’s help, Tesla reignites the charging standard war

One plug or two? The EV charging industry reacts to Ford/GM/Tesla deal.

arstechnica.com

Although Tesla, Ford, and GM benefit from NACS but it's an additional cost for charger makers.

The CCS minimum requirement might not be much of a burden for Tesla: Each station must have 4 ports for CCS cars.

In Tejon Outlets in CA that has 76 NACS ports, retrofit 4 with Magic Docks for CCS cars should be a minimal burden.

 

[DBV]

Business pragmatism should prevail, I think it is in interest of Lucid to come to agreement over Tesla and dump EA and its unreliable network,

Totally agree with you and hope Lucid can come to agreement to go to the Tesla standard. No other EV charging in the US or Canada can come close. An agreement would really help Lucid.

Ford and GM were so smart to go this route. I just continue to be amazed how well built/reliable the Tesla Supercharger network is. Driven over 1500 miles in the last 4 days and the network has been flawless and well laid out in Ohio, MI, NY, PA and Ontario, Canada.

 

[Tâm]

Now for the downside:

Monopoly: I like an open system like Android that can work with its owner Google Pixel phone and competitors Huawei and Motorola... I wouldn't say I like IOS because my Samsung can't use it if it wants to pay for the privilege.

Tesla says it is open, but things can change, just like Huawei is now forbidden from using Android.

Bidirectional: CCS is proven to do bidirectional V2V, V2L, V2H, V2G... Although NACS theoretically can support bidirectional charging, there has been no demo on how it actually works. Tesla actually has been quite anti-Bidirectional. It warns to void the warranty of a Tesla car if it's used as a stationary power source. Maybe with the leadership of Ford and GM, Tesla will be forced to bring that theoretical support into actual use.

Extinction of CCS, ChaDemo, J1772: If only one form factor of NACS is chosen for both AC and Fast DC, there won't be any need for the others in a new car. ChaDemo was supposed to be dead but it's still around in many stations. If the extinction happens, it will be a prolonged process just like the way ChaDemo is. The requirement of 4 CCS ports per station will last until the government subsidies run out in 5 years.

 

[Golfhack]

I think NACS has won and CCS has lost in North America. Between them, Tesla, GM and Ford represent 74% of the EV market share here and the Tesla supercharger network is the largest most reliable network available. Going to a single standard will accelerate EV adoption. Both Kyle from Out of Spec and Sandy Munro have recently posted YouTube videos saying the same thing. I realize that the Tesla gen 3 chargers will require a modification to allow for fast charging by high voltage cars like the Lucid. I also realize that Peter’s history with Elon might pose an obstacle. Nevertheless, I think Lucid should be planning for a NACS future which, in the end, will be better for everyone.

 

[DeaneG]

...I realize that the Tesla gen 3 chargers will require a modification to allow for fast charging by high voltage cars like the Lucid...

Tesla's v3 supercharger dispensers and the power conversion cabinets behind them will have to be completely replaced with V4 units to service 800-1000v cars. It's a rip-out and reinstall.

 

[BobFM]

Tesla's v3 supercharger dispensers and the power conversion cabinets behind them will have to be completely replaced with V4 units to service 800-1000v cars. It's a rip-out and reinstall.

Was about to say the same thing. They're starting to install them in Europe, but will likely be some time before we see them in the US, at least at scale...

 

[DeaneG]

Was about to say the same thing. They're starting to install them in Europe, but will likely be some time before we see them in the US, at least at scale...

AFAIK only v4 dispenser cabinets have been installed in Europe - still v3 power conversion cabinets behind them, so the v4 dispensers can only supply 450V until v4 power conversion cabinets appear. Makes me think it might be a while.

 

[Shuasha]

According to Kyle at OutofSpec, the V3 superchargers actually have 1000v bus bars and could be configured for higher voltage with a few changes (around 1 day of downtime per site). He thinks they'll do it because it would open up their chargers to other high volume platforms like KIA/Hyundai. The Cybertruck is a high voltage platform as well, so depending on how their packs are configured, they may need to do this since there are no V4 superchargers in the US.

Here's where they're discussing it:

 

[DeaneG]

According to Kyle at OutofSpec, the V3 superchargers actually have 1000v bus bars and could be configured for higher voltage with a few changes (around 1 day of downtime per site). He thinks they'll do it because it would open up their chargers to other high volume platforms like KIA/Hyundai. The Cybertruck is a high voltage platform as well, so depending on how their packs are configured, they may need to do this since there are no V4 superchargers in the US.

Here's where they're discussing it:

Thank you! I have that video on my watchlist, but at 80 minutes long, wow.

 

[stratus]

According to Kyle at OutofSpec, the V3 superchargers actually have 1000v bus bars and could be configured for higher voltage with a few changes (around 1 day of downtime per site). He thinks they'll do it because it would open up their chargers to other high volume platforms like KIA/Hyundai. The Cybertruck is a high voltage platform as well, so depending on how their packs are configured, they may need to do this since there are no V4 superchargers in the US.

Here's where they're discussing it:

According to Kyle at OutofSpec, the V3 superchargers actually have 1000v bus bars and could be configured for higher voltage with a few changes (around 1 day of downtime per site). He thinks they'll do it because it would open up their chargers to other high volume platforms like KIA/Hyundai. The Cybertruck is a high voltage platform as well, so depending on how their packs are configured, they may need to do this since there are no V4 superchargers in the US.

Here's where they're discussing it:

Thank you! I have that video on my watchlist, but at 80 minutes long, wow.

Just watched the whole thing. Extremely helpful!!!

 

[borski]

Just watched the whole thing. Extremely helpful!!!

They’d need to change the cable lengths meaningfully as well, but that’s doable.

That said, I don’t think CCS is dead yet. Could be wrong.

 

[stratus]

Perhaps whether or not we planned to, it seems likely that most or at least many EV drivers will eventually be using Tesla’s supercharger network. It’s clear they are the most reliable and I think they have a goal of further monopolizing the charging network in this country. People want reliability and they have obviously delivered. I just hope it doesn’t cause tension between Tesla owners and non owners, especially if stations are crowded. Maybe the CCS network will improve or perhaps this will force them to. Would be so nice to have lots of reliable options, every 50-100 miles , on all major thoroughfares, IMHO.

 

[hydbob]

Perhaps whether or not we planned to, it seems likely that most or at least many EV drivers will eventually be using Tesla’s supercharger network. It’s clear they are the most reliable and I think they have a goal of further monopolizing the charging network in this country. People want reliability and they have obviously delivered. I just hope it doesn’t cause tension between Tesla owners and non owners, especially if stations are crowded. Maybe the CCS network will improve or perhaps this will force them to. Would be so nice to have lots of reliable options, every 50-100 miles , on all major thoroughfares, IMHO.

It's not a guarantee Tesla will be reliable with other makes/models. Even using the magic dock people are having issues using the superchargers with those docks. Don't think having a NACS plug will change the issue people are encountering.

I'd really hate a future where the TSN is the only charging option, that would be bad.

 

[Shuasha]

Multiple things can be true.
1. NACS is a better plug.. It has less cables, is less bulky, is much smaller, handles the current it needs to, it's just better.
2. People are running to Tesla Superchargers as the savior because the rest aren't consistent. It's a temporary problem, hopefully.
3. It's dumb to change standards due to a temporary problems, but I would be fine with everything moving to NACS if it were set as a National Standard and there were adapters that worked consistently during the transition period.