NACS (Tesla adapter) versus CCS Megathread

[Rob Stark]

NACS patent is open and free to use. There's no need to ask for permission or royalty payment.

However, I think Ford/GM deal goes beyond the patent and patent royalty.

It deals with individual adaptors for Ford/GM owners currently only available as "Magic Dock" at very few Superchargers.
Access to the Application Programming Interface to seamlessly make the Ford/GM charging from the navigation screen to the payment system. Customers see Ford/GM and not "Tesla" in the billing.

Those extra things would cost money. Tesla may get a percentage from each transaction, but customers wouldn't even know.

You can install a NACS port on your vehicle without permission from Tesla or paying a royalty fee to Tesla.

You would still be software locked of using the Supercharger Network. In the same way Rivian fast chargers use the CCS port but only Rivian cars can access the Adventure Network.

Tesla/Ford/GM owners will pay the same rate at Superchargers.

Additional a portion of the price of a Tesla car goes into building out the Network. In some fashion Ford/GM BEV owners would logically be required to pay for Supercharger station buildouts as Tesla owners.

Conversely, the Supercharger Network could become a self-sustaining entity and everyone pays a new higher rate.

 

[Neurio]

As stated above, Ford and GM are doing this to save money. Mary Barra admitted as much:

GM CEO Mary Barra says Tesla charging deal will save the automaker up to $400 million

GM said in October 2021 it planned to spend $750 million on electric vehicle charging infrastructure in the U.S. and Canada.

www.cnbc.com

 

[Rob Stark]

Musk has shown utter contempt for the law. After settling with the SEC for stock price manipulation, he ignored the terms of the settlement agreement. He flouted the orders of Alameda County not to operate the Tesla factory during the height of the pandemic. He is under investigation in Germany for possible violations of content moderation requirements with Twitter.

While Musk might ultimately be forced to cave, he is quite capable of attempting anything he can to harass and push Lucid to the brink as long as he can. The claims of him and his acolytes that his first priority is to encourage EV adoption regardless of brand is total hokum. The first time a real competitor on the technology front arrived on the scene, he went into full attack mode, even stooping to propagate bald-faced and easily-demonstrated lies about Rawlinson's tenure at Tesla.

Complete Horse Feces.

Tesla's bankers threatened to cut off funding if Elon didn't settle with bogus SEC complaint. Everyone should be free to speak their mind on Twitter. Even billionaires. The same rules that applies to every C-suite executive about disclosing internal confidential corporate info should apply to Musk. Not more stringent rules.

He ignored one county level bureaucrat on a power trip. At the time every other car factory in the US was manufacturing cars.

F Germany and their moderation requirements. Being a good citizen doesn't require boot licking every bureaucrat on Earth.

Open access to the Network is line with Elon's philosophy and actions.

He has agreed to give Ford/GM access to the Supercharger Network on equal terms as his own customers.

 

[Rob Stark]

BTW An SEC investigation was just recently concluded on the Lucid-Churchill merger. Companies and Executives get investigated all the time. Companies with deep pockets are always being sued. Trial attorneys always looking to shakedown somebody. Doesn't mean the company nor its executives did anything wrong.

 

[Tâm]

You would still be software locked of using the Supercharger Network. In the same way Rivian fast chargers use the CCS port but only Rivian cars can access the Adventure Network.

Customers with royalty-unpaid, no-deal-made, copy-cat NACS ports can still charge at a Tesla Supercharger because instead of going through the Rivian app, they can use Tesla App to charge and pay Tesla.

Those without royalty-unpaid, no-deal-made, copy-cat NACS ports currently have to use very few locations with Magic Dock.

Tesla/Ford/GM owners will pay the same rate at Superchargers.

Not right now. At a Magic Dock, non-Magic Dock customers (Tesla owners) pay less than Magic Dock owners.

Additional a portion of the price of a Tesla car goes into building out the Network. In some fashion Ford/GM BEV owners would logically be required to pay for Supercharger station buildouts as Tesla owners.

I assume so too. That's the price for access.

Conversely, the Supercharger Network could become a self-sustaining entity and everyone pays a new higher rate.

That already happened. It started with free unlimited charging for life. Then very low price, then now quite a high price.

 

[Tâm]

As stated above, Ford and GM are doing this to save money. Mary Barra admitted as much:

Agreed. We tend to think companies are charities and sell products for a higher purpose. But at the end of the day, money talks.

I don't mind paying as long as I get the product and services.

 

[Tâm]

...Tesla could expand the network, of course. And given their history, they likely will. But the fact remains that we're talking about driving the majority of customers into the hands of a single player, which is not good for competition...

Please don't forget that before this deal, Ford and GM have already committed to building their own Fast DC chargers. This deal doesn't change that because there are still not enough chargers so the more access, the better while waiting.

That means when Ford and GM have overbuilt their DC fast chargers, they might not depend on Tesla anymore. If the deal is a percentage per transaction, they don't need to pay if owners won't use Tesla anymore.

Why won't Ford/GM customers won't use Tesla anymore? It's possible because the rate might be cheaper to use the same brand chargers than using Tesla's.

So, even when everyone is on NACS, that doesn't mean Tesla is the only one that can profit from DC fast chargers. Ford and GM will continue to build their own network too.

So, thinking there will be only one player in NACS is overthinking.

Other companies can smell when there is money, and not just Tesla can. Tesla takes advantage of subsidies, and so can Ford and GM.

Perhaps, this deal is just a stop-gap until they can run NACS independently without Tesla.

 

[borski]

Complete Horse Feces.

Tesla's bankers threatened to cut off funding if Elon didn't settle with bogus SEC complaint. Everyone should be free to speak their mind on Twitter. Even billionaires. The same rules that applies to every C-suite executive about disclosing internal confidential corporate info should apply to Musk. Not more stringent rules.

He ignored one county level bureaucrat on a power trip. At the time every other car factory in the US was manufacturing cars.

F Germany and their moderation requirements. Being a good citizen doesn't require boot licking every bureaucrat on Earth.

Open access to the Network is line with Elon's philosophy and actions.

He has agreed to give Ford/GM access to the Supercharger Network on equal terms as his own customers.

That you think his flouting the law and settlement requirements is okay doesn’t change the fact that he did.

Germany has laws, and Musk chose to ignore them. The “county level bureaucrat” was enforcing the law in said county; you may not like the law, but it’s the law nonetheless.

You may think the SEC complaint was bogus; I do not. Doesn’t really matter, as the settlement had requirements for Musk to follow, and he didn’t. That’s not just flouting the law; that’s breaching the terms of the settlement *he agreed to*.

Lots of people think they should be above the law. I don’t think so.

If you don’t like the law, lobby to change it. Don’t just ignore it entirely and pretend you are somehow wise or right for doing so.

 

[LCIDdreams]

Shouldn’t there be a separate thread for discussion on Elon Musk’s legal history? I don’t see how any of this is remotely related to Ford/GM supercharger access?

 

[thecodingart]

That you think his flouting the law and settlement requirements is okay doesn’t change the fact that he did.

Germany has laws, and Musk chose to ignore them. The “county level bureaucrat” was enforcing the law in said county; you may not like the law, but it’s the law nonetheless.

You may think the SEC complaint was bogus; I do not. Doesn’t really matter, as the settlement had requirements for Musk to follow, and he didn’t. That’s not just flouting the law; that’s breaching the terms of the settlement *he agreed to*.

Lots of people think they should be above the law. I don’t think so.

If you don’t like the law, lobby to change it. Don’t just ignore it entirely and pretend you are somehow wise or right for doing so.

I will never understand blind support like this, but thank you for echoing my thoughts. Although, this situation is a tad more complicated in the lobby to change it aspect of things.

 

[hydbob]

Shouldn’t there be a separate thread for discussion on Elon Musk’s legal history? I don’t see how any of this is remotely related to Ford/GM supercharger access?

Yes there should be, back on track with this thread or locked it shall become!

 

[hmp10]

Shouldn’t there be a separate thread for discussion on Elon Musk’s legal history? I don’t see how any of this is remotely related to Ford/GM supercharger access?

It came into play when someone asked why Lucid hasn't already made a similar agreement with Tesla to use Superchargers, which led into a discussion about the personal history between Musk and Rawlinson and Musk's business tactics.

But you're right. Enough has now been said on this angle.

 

[niceguy]

Business pragmatism should prevail, I think it is in interest of Lucid to come to agreement over Tesla and dump EA and its unreliable network,

 

[hydbob]

Business pragmatism should prevail, I think it is in interest of Lucid to come to agreement over Tesla and dump EA and its unreliable network,

This has nothing to do with Lucid coming to an agreement with Tesla. Tesla has to open up first before anyone else can use it. Lucid can also use any network that is based off CCS.

 

[Neurio]

Not to mention that until the V4 systems are installed, Lucids would be capped at 50kw charging speed. Not something I'd look forward to on a road trip....

 

[Volund]

Honestly, this whole thing blows short term. No matter what, we're likely going to all be carrying several adapters in our trunks and having to clip on extra pieces no matter where we go. So much for plug an play.

Not to mention that until the V4 systems are installed, Lucids would be capped at 50kw charging speed. Not something I'd look forward to on a road trip....

Exactly my first thought on this topic.

I'd hate for Lucid to switch to NACS because leaving behind 350kw would be torture on road trips.

Not only that, now imagine how crowded the Tesla super charging stations will be even more so after all this goes into effect.
I had a Tesla loaner and already found myself at full supercharger stalls in the city.
And the charging speed was horribly slow. That's how Elon got the customer base to wait that long was to include games, gimmick's and the ability to watch movies while you charge.

 

[hydbob]

Not to mention that until the V4 systems are installed, Lucids would be capped at 50kw charging speed. Not something I'd look forward to on a road trip....

Yes, exactly how long will it be before the whole SC network is V4 or higher?...This is not a good thing for EV charging to move towards 1 single network, like @joec mentioned in posts above.

 

[niceguy]

Exactly my first thought on this topic.

I'd hate for Lucid to switch to NACS because leaving behind 350kw would be torture on road trips.

Not only that, now imagine how crowded the Tesla super charging stations will be even more so after all this goes into effect.
I had a Tesla loaner and already found myself at full supercharger stalls in the city.
And the charging speed was horribly slow. That's how Elon got the customer base to wait that long was to include games, gimmick's and the ability to watch movies while you charge.

Has anyone got anywhere close to 350KW on EA Chargers, I never have, infact I have never crossed 200, highest i have got is @ 170KW and only for short time and then dropping off, I would take Tesla's reliable 150KW anytime over 350KW mirage of EA

 

[niceguy]

Not to mention that until the V4 systems are installed, Lucids would be capped at 50kw charging speed. Not something I'd look forward to on a road trip....

Wouldn't that be issue with GM and Ford too? I still am not sure if this agreement is for current owners or in future models that will have NACS port

 

[Volund]

Has anyone got anywhere close to 350KW on EA Chargers, I never have, infact I have never crossed 200, highest i have got is @ 170KW and only for short time and then dropping off, I would take Tesla's reliable 150KW anytime over 350KW mirage of EA

V4 chargers are still a ways away.. A long ways
And rolling out all that infrastructure, you'll be at 50KW for a while.

And have you seen the charging curve of Lucid? You have to be quite low to hit 350kw.

And multiple people here have hit 350 or close to it, but you have to get that low.

On a road trip, I never get below 20-30% before I charge, so I've never hit it. But I've hit 250kw quite regularly on my first road trip from DC to Utah.