NACS (Tesla adapter) versus CCS Megathread

[joec]

They will work with existing NACS -> CCS adaptors (everything that's already out there for Tesla folks should work).

I'm unaware of any plans for Ford to have a "ford branded" adaptor for that scenario atm, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was in the pipeline alongside a new Ford Pro charger.

https://shop.tesla.com/product/ccs-combo-1-adapter

So, as long as this adapter ships with the car, CCS stays alive as an option. If it doesn't, then effectively Ford is taxing people for wanting to charge anywhere other than Tesla or their own Ford chargers. Doesn't sound like standardization to me.

Tesla doesn't include this adapter with their cars. Just the Level 2 one. But they have no motivation to do otherwise. I was just curious what Ford and GM plan to do. They are selling this to their customers as an expansion of choice. But it's not if the adapter is a separate $175 purchase.

We'll have to wait and see.

 

[thecodingart]

So, as long as this adapter ships with the car, CCS stays alive as an option. If it doesn't, then effectively Ford is taxing people for wanting to charge anywhere other than Tesla or their own Ford chargers. Doesn't sound like standardization to me.

Tesla doesn't include this adapter with their cars. Just the Level 2 one. But they have no motivation to do otherwise. I was just curious what Ford and GM plan to do. They are selling this to their customers as an expansion of choice. But it's not if the adapter is a separate $175 purchase.

We'll have to wait and see.

This is me not talking "for" Ford atm, but considering the trend of removing chargers and adaptors and preferring to shed things for cost savings, I do not see any company willingly providing adaptors without a customer paying for it now-a-days.

We are inarguably in a format war right now...

I'm personally just happy CCS won the protocol war. Now it's the physical chargeport. Theoretically, Lucid _should_ be able to hot swap our existing ports for NACS ports.. if they really wanted to.

 

[joec]

The real question is how ChargePoint, EA, EVGo, etc. react to this. Will they start offering NACS on their chargers, in addition to CHAdeMO and CCS? That's a lot of cables.

 

[joec]

Honestly, this whole thing blows short term. No matter what, we're likely going to all be carrying several adapters in our trunks and having to clip on extra pieces no matter where we go. So much for plug an play.

 

[thecodingart]

The real question is how ChargePoint, EA, EVGo, etc. react to this. Will they start offering NACS on their chargers, in addition to CHAdeMO and CCS? That's a lot of cables.

ChargePoint is open minded and will only provide CCS but is open to what the future brings, EA is in denial and being stubbornly focused on just the CCS port standard and basically noted they're not budging, EVGo.. I can't recall if they said anything.

There was quite a bit of public commentary after the announcement from reps for each company.

 

[Tâm]

So, as long as this adapter ships with the car, CCS stays alive as an option. If it doesn't, then effectively Ford is taxing people for wanting to charge anywhere other than Tesla or their own Ford chargers. Doesn't sound like standardization to me.

Tesla doesn't include this adapter with their cars. Just the Level 2 one. But they have no motivation to do otherwise. I was just curious what Ford and GM plan to do. They are selling this to their customers as an expansion of choice. But it's not if the adapter is a separate $175 purchase.

We'll have to wait and see.

Usually, companies don't want to to change especially, Ford and GM.

I suspect they do because of profits and not loss.

Complexities cost more. Reduces J1772 and CCS into one single NACS means cost saving.

I heard that ChaDeMo royalty is quite steep. Since Tesla opens its NACS patent, you don't need to ask its permission and you don't need to pay any royalty fees (including skip using J1772 form factor), that would save money.

So for companies, their priorities are not about the good of standardization (they already picked and are using J1772 and CCS) , nor it's about helping customers but about profits.

However, luckily for customers, NACS is helping them too as a bonus (not as companies' priorities).

In the meantime, it looks like Ford and GM will provide CCS to NACS for free until their new cars will only have NACS port.

I think at that time, it's reasonable that if customers don't want to use the built-in NACS, they will need to buy an adapter for CCS and ChaDeMo.

For me, I don't mind buying an adapter. It's worse when I have money and no one sells me a Lucid adapter for my needs: NEMA 6-15 (240V 15A circuit).

 

[Tâm]

Honestly, this whole thing blows short term. No matter what, we're likely going to all be carrying several adapters in our trunks and having to clip on extra pieces no matter where we go. So much for plug an play.

It's an improvement, not a take away.

Whatever you have now, you can keep it.

That means you can continue to use EA with absolutely no adapters at all.

For Ford and GM, it's the same thing: no take away but they get even more: they can access beyond CCS with these announcements.

 

[Tâm]

The real question is how ChargePoint, EA, EVGo, etc. react to this. Will they start offering NACS on their chargers, in addition to CHAdeMO and CCS? That's a lot of cables.

EVgo has already got NACS installed in certain locations:
San Francisco, Los Angeles, Seattle, Washington DC, Virginia, Texas, Salt Lake City, San Diego, Denver, New York, Phoenix, Florida, Georgia, and Massachusetts.

I suspect if there are profits, they too would adopt NACS. If they don't think there's any profits, they won't.

 

[joec]

It's an improvement, not a take away.

Whatever you have now, you can keep it.

That means you can continue to use EA with absolutely no adapters at all.

For Ford and GM, it's the same thing: no take away but they get even more: they can access beyond CCS with these announcements.

You’re missing my point entirely.

If you buy a Ford or GM car in 2025, you will lose access to any charging station that is CCS only. They are marketing it as if you are “gaining” all the Tesla stations while keeping all your current charging options. You aren’t. You are trading all the CCS stations for the NACS ones. Unless you buy an adapter.

They could just as easily kept the CCS port in their cars and given you a NACS adapter. But they chose to favor NACS instead.

And we all know that basically means you will be paying Tesla for charging the bulk of the time. Which is more expensive. Not to mention giving the richest person in the world even more money and power. To what end?

Don’t get me wrong; I think the NACS port is better. And likely cheaper, which is the real motivation here.

But that’s not better for the charging landscape in North America. No matter how they want to spin it.

 

[Rob Stark]

If you buy a Ford or GM car in 2025, you will lose access to any charging station that is CCS only. They are marketing it as if you are “gaining” all the Tesla stations while keeping all your current charging options. You aren’t. You are trading all the CCS stations for the NACS ones. Unless you buy an adapter.

If you are a Ford customer you will still have FordPass and plugncharge with EA and the current CCS Networks in the system. You will have to buy the adapter for CCS once Ford switches. And you will gain full and easy access plugncharge and payments to the Supercharger Network through FordPass.

GM is saying they will integrate the Tesla App into their infotainment. You will be able to plugncharge with Supercharger Network. I still think they are working on plugncharge with EA and other Networks.

In my neck of the woods CCS is more expensive.

You will not be forced to use Superchargers. But Superchargers are more ubiquitous, stations are better placed, they are less likely to be all occupied at a particular station, and much more likely to be working.

Most Ford/GM BEV customers will likely do the vast majority of their fast charging at Superchargers. Because it is a better experience and value.

 

[thecodingart]

You’re missing my point entirely.

If you buy a Ford or GM car in 2025, you will lose access to any charging station that is CCS only. They are marketing it as if you are “gaining” all the Tesla stations while keeping all your current charging options. You aren’t. You are trading all the CCS stations for the NACS ones. Unless you buy an adapter.

They could just as easily kept the CCS port in their cars and given you a NACS adapter. But they chose to favor NACS instead.

And we all know that basically means you will be paying Tesla for charging the bulk of the time. Which is more expensive. Not to mention giving the richest person in the world even more money and power. To what end?

Don’t get me wrong; I think the NACS port is better. And likely cheaper, which is the real motivation here.

But that’s not better for the charging landscape in North America. No matter how they want to spin it.

Even if Ford offered the choice between CCS and NACS on order, NACS would win that battle.

The adaptor isn’t ideal but it could be way worse.. like not compatible at all.

 

[Tâm]

...Unless you buy an adapter....

That is my point. As long as an adapter is for sale. That is a gain. I lose money but I gain access.

But that’s not better for the charging landscape in North America. No matter how they want to spin it.

A functioning CCS station is nice but right now, they are not that reliable.

For now, without the deal, if my CCS station is down, I cannot buy an adapter to use Tesla Supercharger. Tesla doesn't sell one. Its adapter, magic dock, is only available in very limited locations, not in Central Valley, not in Southern California. With this deal, if I have to pay for an adapter, it's a gain of access to all Tesla Superchargers not a few Magic Dock ones.

A gain in access even if it costs me money is a welcome for me. My only concern is I am willing to pay for a Magic Dock but no one wants to sell it. That's a loss of access, and not a gain of access even though I save by not paying for additional access.

 

[hydbob]

All this is doing is holding back EV tech. Access to the supercharger network basically forces manufacturers to stay at 400v architecture for a looooonghh time.

 

[joec]

You will not be forced to use Superchargers. But Superchargers are more ubiquitous, stations are better placed, they are less likely to be all occupied at a particular station, and much more likely to be working.

How is that going to play out when millions of Fords and GM cars start using Tesla Superchargers? In MY neck of the woods, Tesla Superchargers often have more stalls, but they are already pretty close to capacity most of the time with all the Teslas around here. And Tesla sales are only going to increase now that they are getting full tax rebates again.

Tesla could expand the network, of course. And given their history, they likely will. But the fact remains that we're talking about driving the majority of customers into the hands of a single player, which is not good for competition.

Given the way people around here complain about spending a nickel for anything, I can't imagine the bulk of lower-priced Ford and GM truck owners shelling out $150 for an adapter.

I guess what I'm saying is this feels an awful lot like a "Be careful what you wish for" situation. And I think the motivation from these manufacturers is to save a buck, not help customer choice.

Meanwhile, anyone with an 700 Volt or higher car is going to get screwed royally on this deal. If it kills players like EA entirely, any Lucid driver is going to be stuck charging at 50 kw max for a long time.

This benefits who? Oh yeah, Tesla, of course.

 

[Tâm]

All this is doing is holding back EV tech. Access to the supercharger network basically forces manufacturers to stay at 400v architecture for a looooonghh time.

I don't see how.

Tesla already came put with V4 Supercharger with longer cord, 1000V 615A in Europe.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1636080700402147329

 

[Tâm]

How is that going to play out when millions of Fords and GM cars start using Tesla Superchargers? In MY neck of the woods, Tesla Superchargers often have more stalls, but they are already pretty close to capacity most of the time with all the Teslas around here. And Tesla sales are only going to increase now that they are getting full tax rebates again.

Tesla could expand the network, of course. And given their history, they likely will. But the fact remains that we're talking about driving the majority of customers into the hands of a single player, which is not good for competition.

Given the way people around here complain about spending a nickel for anything, I can't imagine the bulk of lower-priced Ford and GM truck owners shelling out $150 for an adapter.

I guess what I'm saying is this feels an awful lot like a "Be careful what you wish for" situation. And I think the motivation from these manufacturers is to save a buck, not help customer choice.

Meanwhile, anyone with an 700 Volt or higher car is going to get screwed royally on this deal. If it kills players like EA entirely, any Lucid driver is going to be stuck charging at 50 kw max for a long time.

This benefits who? Oh yeah, Tesla, of course.

True for now on the 50kw limitation.

But that is a trade-off to gain access even with a slower speed. It’s there if I need it. It's like a safety net.

Tesla Supercharger V4 is in Europe; next will be the US (just like Mercedes L3 in Europe, next in the US) with 1000VDC, 615A

Tesla Supercharger V4 revealed to be twice as powerful

Tesla Supercharger V4 has been revealed to have the potential to be twice as powerful as the previous generation. We...

electrek.co

 

[hmp10]

There could be lawsuits if Tesla rejected Lucid's application join NACS on equal footing to GM/Ford.

Not only would it be horrible look on Musk/Tesla but Lucid would win. That would be exercising monopolistic power to restrain competition.

Musk has shown utter contempt for the law. After settling with the SEC for stock price manipulation, he ignored the terms of the settlement agreement. He flouted the orders of Alameda County not to operate the Tesla factory during the height of the pandemic. He is under investigation in Germany for possible violations of content moderation requirements with Twitter.

While Musk might ultimately be forced to cave, he is quite capable of attempting anything he can to harass and push Lucid to the brink as long as he can. The claims of him and his acolytes that his first priority is to encourage EV adoption regardless of brand is total hokum. The first time a real competitor on the technology front arrived on the scene, he went into full attack mode, even stooping to propagate bald-faced and easily-demonstrated lies about Rawlinson's tenure at Tesla.

 

[Tâm]

Tesla could expand the network, of course. And given their history, they likely will. But the fact remains that we're talking about driving the majority of customers into the hands of a single player, which is not good for competition.

There are now 4 format competitors: J1772, CCS, NACS.

There are currently no single player but multiple players.

Given the way people around here complain about spending a nickel for anything, I can't imagine the bulk of lower-priced Ford and GM truck owners shelling out $150 for an adapter.

That may be true but it's nice for those who want to buy something that is not available for now: Tesla Magic Dock to CCS.

I guess what I'm saying is this feels an awful lot like a "Be careful what you wish for" situation. And I think the motivation from these manufacturers is to save a buck, not help customer choice.

No doubt. It's about companies' profits first.
But I do think gaining access is a nice bonus for customers even if that means it may cost customers for access.

This benefits who? Oh yeah, Tesla, of course.

I don't care whether the companies like Tesla gets the profit. I just want to pay for access.

 

[Tâm]

There could be lawsuits if Tesla rejected Lucid's application join NACS on equal footing to GM/Ford.

Not only would it be horrible look on Musk/Tesla but Lucid would win. That would be exercising monopolistic power to restrain competition.

NACS patent is open and free to use. There's no need to ask for permission or royalty payment.

However, I think Ford/GM deal goes beyond the patent and patent royalty.

It deals with individual adaptors for Ford/GM owners currently only available as "Magic Dock" at very few Superchargers.
Access to the Application Programming Interface to seamlessly make the Ford/GM charging from the navigation screen to the payment system. Customers see Ford/GM and not "Tesla" in the billing.

Those extra things would cost money. Tesla may get a percentage from each transaction, but customers wouldn't even know.

 

[Rob Stark]

How is that going to play out when millions of Fords and GM cars start using Tesla Superchargers? In MY neck of the woods, Tesla Superchargers often have more stalls, but they are already pretty close to capacity most of the time with all the Teslas around here. And Tesla sales are only going to increase now that they are getting full tax rebates again.

Tesla could expand the network, of course. And given their history, they likely will. But the fact remains that we're talking about driving the majority of customers into the hands of a single player, which is not good for competition.

Given the way people around here complain about spending a nickel for anything, I can't imagine the bulk of lower-priced Ford and GM truck owners shelling out $150 for an adapter.

I guess what I'm saying is this feels an awful lot like a "Be careful what you wish for" situation. And I think the motivation from these manufacturers is to save a buck, not help customer choice.

Meanwhile, anyone with an 700 Volt or higher car is going to get screwed royally on this deal. If it kills players like EA entirely, any Lucid driver is going to be stuck charging at 50 kw max for a long time.

This benefits who? Oh yeah, Tesla, of course.

Lightning starts at $60k and Mach-e at $44k. Ford BEV owners can't afford $150?

Tesla has been the best at building fast charging stations. Now they will have IRA subsidies to boot. Plus monies coming in from Ford and GM. I trust Tesla more than CCS Alliance to build out a fast reliable continent wide North American network.

Right now you have Tesla, GM, and Ford on Supercharger Network.

Everyone else on CCS Networks. Maybe next week Volvo or JLR will jump ship.

Maybe one of the Japanese or Koreans. Stellantis?

I think the Germans will be the last to abandon CCS in North America.