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Lucid Production Week Event

dawktah LucidGT

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So I finally got a chance to watch that rather long 43 minute video. Here are a few thoughts I had based on their observations:

* The windshield distortion was truly surprising to me. This was not just distortion in the canopy from above as was in my Tesla, this was field of vision distortion. Interestingly, he was greatly bothered by it and she never mentioned it. Although a different problem, my Jaguar I-Pace had an optional heated windshield. This caused an overall subtle ‘fogging’ that always bothered me. It also produced rainbows at certain sun angles. I would never go with a heated windshield again. Windshield issues can really detract from the driving experience.

So the question is, was this a one-off problem or do all the full canopies have it? It’s the first time I heard it mentioned. Is this because he was the only driver to see it? Is that because he was the perfect height to have the unfortunate luck to have it directly in his field of vision? Or is it because his tester was the only one with this optical distortion. I don’t think this is a minor point. My Lucid will have a conventional windshield, so it’s unlikely to be an issue for me, but others should not dismiss this.

* The mics used in this video were of higher quality (for voice) than most previous videos and I suspect they filtered out much of the ambient sounds. The rear seat noise that bothered Winter was apparently not picked up by the mics. It didn’t appear the mics had much of an upper frequency response either. Video is a hobby of mine so I tend to notice these things. If I judged noise solely by the noise picked up by the mics in this video, I wouldn’t be bothered. We shall see.

* Regardless of the previous drives their tester was subject to, was nobody surprised by the 1.9 miles/kWh? I was for sure. I didn’t think even aggressive driving would result in that poor an efficiency in the Lucid. That’s something I’ll watch out for in road tests in the future. I doubt it will be an issue, but this did strike me as surprising.

* The backseat foot issue won’t be a problem for me or my passengers, but it might for the large battery pack buyers. No surprises here, we knew this.

Otherwise the feedback was excellent. Even Winter’s comment that the Lucid did not give him a luxury car ride, was not concerning. He raved about it being a driver’s car which he absolutely loved. I wished he had gone into more detail about those comments, but I assume he meant the ride was not ‘pillowy soft’.
Unless I missed it what size wheels were on the car they drove? Did they ever look after questioning it?
 

Neurio

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Review out from Car and Driver:


Overall they were happy, but did say this:
"Our main gripe was the road noise produced by the optional low-profile (35 series) 21-inch Pirelli P Zero PZ4 Elect tires on one particularly nasty stretch of asphalt. Back-seat occupants noticed it more, but we're willing to chalk it up to coarse asphalt meeting the sportiest of three tire offerings. If you needed another reason to not go for the 21s, EPA range drops to 481 miles when they are spec'd."
 

Lucken

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Well, keep in mind that similar comments in the long video posted above came from a test car outfitted with 19s.

The assumption I’m operating under is that this is essentially a noise insulation problem. I’ve felt that from the get go. If it was just the tires, why are the complaints largely limited to the rear occupants?

I think Lucid will take care of this later on as production ramps up. We’re seeing the complaint surface too frequently for Lucid to ignore it.
 

hmp10

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Almost everyone who has mentioned the rear seat tire noise has mentioned it was on a bad patch of pavement. Jonny Lieberman, who spent two days on California roads ranging from the Angeles Crest Highway to the freeways to urban streets mentioned a little bit of wind noise as the only thing worth comment when it came to noise. And he was in the rear seat for the final 36-miles stretch from the Mission District in San Francisco to Lucid HQ in Fremont.

All this hoopla may be nothing but the result of a few minutes on an atypically rough stretch of roadway that will seldom be encountered by most rear seat occupants, which is where the problem seems to occur.
 

Lucken

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We’ve got miles and miles of rough road surfaces on the LIE here as well as other roads. I’m not so sure how atypical this occurrence would be in large northern cities. It sure isn’t in NY. :(
 

dawktah LucidGT

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Well, keep in mind that similar comments in the long video posted above came from a test car outfitted with 19s.

The assumption I’m operating under is that this is essentially a noise insulation problem. I’ve felt that from the get go. If it was just the tires, why are the complaints largely limited to the rear occupants?

I think Lucid will take care of this later on as production ramps up. We’re seeing the complaint surface too frequently for Lucid to ignore it.
I still think this is an assumption, The Transportation Evolved video said they weren't sure but were driving the range version but didn't look or confirm. From watching various videos I didn't see any Dream Editions with 19"
 

hmp10

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Review out from Car and Driver . . .
Strong review. But I don't understand the "Brilliance Out of Nowhere" tag line. Are they not aware of the extraordinarily deep experience from both the ICE and EV car industries that Peter Rawlinson, Erich Bach, Derek Jenkins, Peter Hochholdinger, Eugene Lee, et al. bring to this company? This is probably one of the deepest, broadest, and most-experienced automotive teams anywhere.
 

Lucken

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I still think this is an assumption, The Transportation Evolved video said they weren't sure but were driving the range version but didn't look or confirm. From watching various videos I didn't see any Dream Editions with 19"
At 22:27 she states that she believes the car is on 19s based on the range. So admittedly she appears to be guessing.
 

dawktah LucidGT

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At 22:27 she states that she believes the car is on 19s based on the range. So admittedly she appears to be guessing.
Yep, car had 1.9mi/kWh so people are saying it was terrible for the Dream R but if it were on 21" wheels...
 

hmp10

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Yep, car had 1.9mi/kWh so people are saying it was terrible for the Dream R but if it were on 21" wheels...
A poster on another forum who was at the event last week in Casa Grande was in a car that a test driver took up to 160 mph briefly. And the "Transport Evolved" review said that Rawlinson told the press to be hard on the cars and really put them through their paces. I have a feeling the stink was run out of those cars, and I don't think 1.9 m/kWh for cars being put through this kind of driving is anything to worry about for regular road trippers.
 

Lucken

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We might finally discover the truth once reviewers are allowed to properly review these cars…assuming that ever happens. Short of that, we’ll learn far more from the early owners. Until then we can conjecture about the causes and degree of noise, efficiency, tires and distorted canopies until the cows come home…and we still won’t know for certain. ;)
 

Adnillien

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Review from The Drive:

"In the meantime, what’s clear is that Lucid intends to be more than an also-ran EV manufacturer. However, sooner rather than later, the novelty of instant torque will start to feel familiar and battery technology will reach a level of efficiency where range becomes a non-issue. Numbers one-upsmanship isn’t going to cut it at that point, and I can’t help but wonder if there’s enough distinct character here to keep the momentum going once the EV honeymoon is over."

I liked and disliked this paragraph. While I agree with his comments that instant torque (acceleration) will not be enough to differentiate an EV in the future, his comments about battery efficiency tell me he has no idea what is important in an EV. Coulombic efficiency (electrons in versus electrons out) of batteries is nearly 100% and has been so for may years. Total efficiency (energy in versus energy out) is well over 90%. Advances in batteries will lead to better energy density (smaller weight and size) but not better efficiency. Other areas like power train efficiency and charging speed are much more important than battery efficiency. The author is correct about design being important. While not everyone appreciates the Lucid design style, I happen to think that the design is excellent (minimal, luxurious, contemporary with a slight retro vibe). Nobody else comes close (see the comments on this forum about the Mercedes EQS). Power train efficiency, charging speed (miles added per minute) combined with design is sets Lucid apart in the EV market.

This review did not comment on it but a few other reviews have and that is how fun the car is to drive. This is probably the single biggest criteria for me (more than NVH). If the initial buyers love driving this car, I am in. Otherwise I may look for better values elsewhere. Based of the reviews so far, I have no intention of canceling my reservation.
 

hmp10

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. . . the novelty of instant torque will start to feel familiar . . .
That's true, but it will also become the "new normal" as more drivers get behind the wheels of EVs and begin to find ICE vehicles hopelessly lacking in this aspect. I have two friends who test drove the single-motor VW ID.4. As underpowered as it is relative to any Tesla, they were both impressed by the instantaneousness off-the-line torque and the smoothness of the curve. (One friend bought the ID.4, and the other is now convinced he wants an EV as soon as he can find one a bit less expensive.)

Adnillien, it seems you're an engineer, so maybe you could help me with something. Led by the veteran Lucid-basher Warren Redlich (who has 60,000 YouTube subscribers and whose videos get tens of thousands of views), people are claiming that the EPA ratings prove that Rawlinson is lying and the Lucid Air must have a battery pack of at least 139 kWh. There are various iterations of the calculations these people use to get there, but here is one example:

"Tom55data
1 day ago

Here you go, I have answered several people, but here are the official EPA numbers, from which we can work out the battery size... Using the official EPA numbers : Range = 520 miles mpge = 125 efficiency = 127kW/100 miles = 3.7 miles/kWh Doing the maths = Battery size = 520/3.7 = 140kWh Yes, that is right 140kWh . . . ."

Some people also claim that the use of a 924-volt architecture means the battery pack must be much larger than stated by Lucid -- again getting to the 140 kWh range. My understanding is that the 924 volts means that, by lowering current and therefore resistance, electricity can be put into and pulled out of the pack more quickly without damaging it, but that 924 volts plays no role in calculating battery pack size from EPA data.

Could you shed any light on this?
 

Lucken

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I won't pretend to know the mechanics of these 'calculations', but it seems highly unlikely that Rawlinson would lie about something that is so easily discoverable. I'm almost certain there is something erroneous in his calculations.
 

Adnillien

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"Tom55data
1 day ago

Here you go, I have answered several people, but here are the official EPA numbers, from which we can work out the battery size... Using the official EPA numbers : Range = 520 miles mpge = 125 efficiency = 127kW/100 miles = 3.7 miles/kWh Doing the maths = Battery size = 520/3.7 = 140kWh Yes, that is right 140kWh . . . ."
Tom55data is making an incorrect assumption. The EPA includes charging losses in its MPGe numbers. The numbers above assume that 100% of the energy provided to the car ended up in the battery. We know this is physically impossible. Battery cells charge at a slightly higher voltage than they discharge. This means that the energy into the battery is always more than the energy stored in the battery. This is often referred to as battery efficiency. Secondly, there are losses in the charging circuit. I am not sure how the EPA charges the car but I assume they are using a level 2 AC charger to represent typical home charging. During charging, the Lucid "Wunderbox" has to both boost voltage and convert AC to DC to charge the battery. This circuit will have losses that contribute to the charging efficiency. In addition, all wiring will have small resistive losses that contribute to the charging efficiency.

Battery efficiency and charging circuit efficiency vary with state of charge. They are less efficient at a lower state of charge than a higher state of charge. The EPA is charging from zero to 100% so the low efficiency at low state of charge is included in the overall charging loss.

Assuming an average battery efficiency of 95% and a "Wunderbox" (including wiring losses) efficiency of 90%, you get 112.7 kWhr capacity battery for the case shown above.

The idea that a 924V architecture implies a larger battery capacity is non-sense. The voltage tells us how may cells need to be stacked in series to reach 924 volts. Typical cell voltages are around 3.6 volts depending on chemistry. This voltage can vary between 3.2 and 4.2 volts depending on temperature, state of charge and if the battery is being charged. I have no idea what what condition 924V refers to.

Battery cells are connected in series to increase voltage and connected in parallel to increase current. At 3.6 volts per cell, we need 257 cells in series to reach 924V. Since a module has 300 cells, reaching 924V is not a problem. The more interesting question is how to create a balanced module or pair of modules between series and parallel combinations that add up to 924V.

Since power is equal to current times voltage, higer voltge architecture allows charging or discharging at a lower current. It is the current that damages the cells when the battery is charged to quickly. Hence, the Lucid can charge quickly without cell damage due to its higher voltage.
 

hmp10

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Do you mind if I post this very helpful analysis in the comments section of Redlich's most recent bash job against Lucid?

(The EPA gave the time-to-recharge figure at 13 hours for the Air, so that seems to indicate they do use Level 2 charging, as you surmised.)
 

Adnillien

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Do you mind if I post this very helpful analysis in the comments section of Redlich's most recent bash job against Lucid?

(The EPA gave the time-to-recharge figure at 13 hours for the Air, so that seems to indicate they do use Level 2 charging, as you surmised.)
Feel free to post it there.
 
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