Lucid Production Week Event

[hmp10]

The "InsideEVs" review is now up. It portion with Erich Bach contains the most comprehensive discussion of efficiencies in the powertrain and drivetrain that I've seen thus far:

 

[WildRide47]

The wheels on that Zenith Red were "Wow. Should have been the original wheels for the Dream Edition. I plan to order them to use as a second set of wheels for snow tires for the winter. Since they are 20 inch wheels and the GT comes with 21 inch wheels, I assume that the Air has the ability to compensate for the difference in wheel size so it does not affect the actual mileage shown when driving.

 

[hmp10]

Changing the diameter of a wheel/tire combo affects more than the speedometer and range. It impacts the gearing ratio of the overall drive system.

The tires for a 21" and a 20" wheel will have virtually the same rolling circumference if done right. As the wheel size increases, the height of the tire sidewall should shorten to compensate for the larger wheel, thus keeping the total diameter constant. This is why the tires on a Lucid with 21" wheels have an aspect ratio (sidewall height as a percentage of tread width) of 35 while the tires on the 19" Lucid wheels have an aspect ratio of 45.

This article from Tire Rack will help explain how total wheel/tire diameter is kept the same as wheel sizes increase or decrease:

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=97&

You should be able to interchange any of the Lucid wheel/tire combos without any adverse effect on the vehicle. Tire Rack has charts that show the number of tire rotations per mile for each size tire so that you can be sure you're keeping the rolling circumference as near the original as you play with different wheel/tire combos.

 

[Lucken]

If increasing wheel size actually turns out to have no impact on the Lucid’s range, it will be, to the best of my knowledge, a first in the world of electric cars.

 

[hmp10]

The wheels on that Zenith Red were "Wow. Should have been the original wheels for the Dream Edition.

That red car is neither fish nor fowl in terms of trim level and is thus not a production version. It has the sideview mirrors with the brushed aluminum tops that are going to be unique to the production Dream, but it has the Tahoe interior which is not available on the Dream.

I like those wheels, too, and keep checking the order configurator to see if they have become available on the Dream. No changes yet, and my Delivery Advisor knew nothing about their becoming available prior to delivery.

 

[hmp10]

If increasing wheel size actually turns out to have no impact on the Lucid’s range, it will be, to the best of my knowledge, a first in the world of electric cars.

I was trying to address WildRide47's concern that the "mileage shown when driving" would be affected by changing wheels. I did not say it had no impact on range. I said it "affects more than the speedometer and range".

However, the impact on range from changing wheels usually does not arise from a change in rolling circumference, as the change in wheel size is usually offset by changes in tire sidewall height. What affects range relating to changing wheels has to do with changes to the tire's rolling resistance when changing sidewall height, changing the weight and rotational inertia of the wheel/tire combo, and -- with some of these changes -- changing the width and thus the aerodynamics of the tires on one or both axles.

Let me try to state it less confusedly:

If you switch between any of the wheel/tire combos Lucid offers, you will keep pretty much the same rolling circumference. Thus the speedometer calibration, the overall gearing ratio of the car, and the mileage shown when driving will not be affected.

Range will be affected, but due to some combination of the reasons listed above.

 

[Lucken]

My mistake, I stand corrected. When you said, “You should be able to interchange any of the Lucid wheel/tire combos without any adverse effect on the vehicle.”, I interpreted that to mean ‘including range’. When discussing BEVs, I always think of decreasing range efficiency as an ‘adverse effect’.

 

[dawktah LucidGT]

Changing the diameter of a wheel/tire combo affects more than the speedometer and range. It impacts the gearing ratio of the overall drive system.

The tires for a 21" and a 20" wheel will have virtually the same rolling circumference if done right. As the wheel size increases, the height of the tire sidewall should shorten to compensate for the larger wheel, thus keeping the total diameter constant. This is why the tires on a Lucid with 21" wheels have an aspect ratio (sidewall height as a percentage of tread width) of 35 while the tires on the 19" Lucid wheels have an aspect ratio of 45.

This article from Tire Rack will help explain how total wheel/tire diameter is kept the same as wheel sizes increase or decrease:

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=97&

You should be able to interchange any of the Lucid wheel/tire combos without any adverse effect on the vehicle. Tire Rack has charts that show the number of tire rotations per mile for each size tire so that you can be sure you're keeping the rolling circumference as near the original as you play with different wheel/tire combos.

For those looking at snow tires which wheel size and which tires? Blizzak vs X-Ice

 

[hmp10]

I have sort of a "thing" about tires and wheels and have spent years reading Tire Rack's website as if it were a juicy novel.

Playing with tire and wheel changes can be a real crap shoot unless you're an engineer (I'm not) and have all the relevant data to hand (I don't). For instance, normally going from a 20" to a 21" wheel would add weight and increase rotational inertia, as the weight of the wheel increases more than the weight of the tire diminishes. However, Lucid uses a forged 21" wheel while its smaller wheels are cast. All other things being equal, a forged wheel will weigh less than the same wheel design produced by casting. Now . . . is the lower weight of the forging enough to offset the weight increase due to its being a larger diameter?

Fortunately for us, as least with the 21" and 19" wheels, Lucid took the trouble to submit cars with both wheels to the EPA, and we know the actual range penalty instead of having to guess. I think they said the 20" wheel data is soon to follow, but I'm not sure.

 

[WildRide47]

Thank you for your explanation. I was concerned about speedometer readings and recorded mileage when changing to a smaller wheel. Once Lucid releases what size tires will be on the 20 inch wheels, I will simply copy their numbers for purchasing winter tires.

 

[WildRide47]

Another concern. With Lucid's system of sensors. Will this interfere with radar/laser detectors and or laser jammers

 

[Lucken]

Now here’s another generalization that has typically applied to the impact of larger/smaller wheel sizes. Typically a larger wheel & tire will result in a firmer ride on the same car, all other things being equal. As I understand it this is usually due to the lesser flexing of the sidewall on the larger tire. On the flip side the larger tire has the potential for better handling, but I assume this would be contingent upon the construction of the tire.

Do we know if these factors hold true in the case of the Lucid?

 

[hmp10]

Do we know if these factors hold true in the case of the Lucid?

Something is unclear about Lucid tires. The press materials that both Lucid and Pirelli have put out about the P Zero "LM1" (Lucid Motors 1) tire that is custom-engineered for the Air only show the 21" sizes (in 245mm and 265mm widths). The Pirelli website doesn't yet list the Lucid tires, so I can't tell whether they are going to make it in sizes to fit the smaller Lucid wheels. (I suspect not, as it would seem the press materials would say the tires could be used on the whole Lucid trim range.)

The press materials claim the tire was engineered with sidewalls both to increase the weight-bearing capacity and decrease the rolling resistance of the tire, something that seems to be contradictory, at least with conventional tire construction methods.

I think it's a safe assumption that the 21" tires will handle marginally better in taxing dynamic maneuvers, but whether they reduce rolling resistance into the range of the 19" or 20" tires is an open question, to me at least.

 

[hmp10]

Another concern. With Lucid's system of sensors. Will this interfere with radar/laser detectors and or laser jammers

That's an interesting question. We just had a Radenso remote system (radar/laser detectors and laser jammer) installed in our Tesla Model S Plaid. Although Tesla is reducing the types of sensors on its other models, the new Model S still has the original array of sensors. However, it doesn't have the front lidar. The Radenso works fine on the Tesla for radar. We haven't yet been hit by a laser gun to see how well the jammer functions. (The installer had a testing device that demonstrated the jammer's operation, and it worked well with that.)

I hadn't thought about whether the lidar on the Lucid might interfere with a police laser gun. As the gun registers a return light beam returning from the target car, it seems the lidar beam might confuse the police gun unless there is something different about the frequencies that would matter. I think this might be worth a call to my Delivery Advisor, so she can add it to the list of questions Lucid has thus far been unable to answer.

We have used Escort Passport remote installations in our other cars and always liked them. However, the chip shortage made Escort units unavailable, and our installer recommended Radenso, which he uses in his own car. I had never heard of the brand and checked it out to find it is highly regarded. While it has marginally less range sensitivity than the Escort, it has better filtering algorithms for extraneous signals.

It also has some other features I prefer over the Escort:

- the cabin display and control units are integrated into a single unit instead of separated as in the Escort

- the buttons are easier to use (for instance, you can mute the alarm by hitting any of three buttons instead of having to find the single muting button on the Escort)

- the unit is mounted to a base by a magnet and can be quickly removed

- the unit displays and gives a voice alert showing the direction from which the radar signal or laser beam is being detected

- the laser jammer is self-activating, unlike the Escort (when the Escort is hit by a laser beam, you have to slow the car quickly and then press a button to turn off the jammer so that the police will get a clean return when they hit the car the second time; the Radenso turns off the jammer automatically after an interval that the user preselects)

Bottom line: we're going to use the Radenso in the Lucid, too, even if Escorts become available in the meantime.

 

[Lucken]

Something is unclear about Lucid tires. The press materials that both Lucid and Pirelli have put out about the P Zero "LM1" (Lucid Motors 1) tire that is custom-engineered for the Air only show the 21" sizes (in 245mm and 265mm widths). The Pirelli website doesn't yet list the Lucid tires, so I can't tell whether they are going to make it in sizes to fit the smaller Lucid wheels. (I suspect not, as it would seem the press materials would say the tires could be used on the whole Lucid trim range.)

The press materials claim the tire was engineered with sidewalls both to increase the weight-bearing capacity and decrease the rolling resistance of the tire, something that seems to be contradictory, at least with conventional tire construction methods.

I think it's a safe assumption that the 21" tires will handle marginally better in taxing dynamic maneuvers, but whether they reduce rolling resistance into the range of the 19" or 20" tires is an open question, to me at least.

There’s also the question of ride quality. Will the larger wheels/tires result in a firmer ride and the smaller wheel/tire combo result in a softer ride? Personally I prefer a somewhat softer ride.

 

[hmp10]

There’s also the question of ride quality. Will the larger wheels/tires result in a firmer ride and the smaller wheel/tire combo result in a softer ride? Personally I prefer a somewhat softer ride.

When we bought the 2015 Tesla, even though it was a performance version for which most people were opting for 21" wheels, we took the 19" wheels for the reason you cite. However, after reading how much progress Tesla had made with suspension tuning since, we risked the 21" wheels on the Plaid we just bought. It turns out that the Plaid does, in fact, have a more compliant ride than the earlier P90D with 19" wheels.

Given that Lucid seems to have real suspension design chops (based, in part, on Rawlinson's background at Jaguar and Lotus) and in light of the claim that the Pirelli LM1 tires have been engineered with ride quality among the factors seeking to be optimized, we're going to risk the 21" wheels on the Lucid.

Worst case scenario, we'll switch to a smaller wheel if we find we don't like the 21" setup.

 

[dawktah LucidGT]

When we bought the 2015 Tesla, even though it was a performance version for which most people were opting for 21" wheels, we took the 19" wheels for the reason you cite. However, after reading how much progress Tesla had made with suspension tuning since, we risked the 21" wheels on the Plaid we just bought. It turns out that the Plaid does, in fact, have a more compliant ride than the earlier P90D with 19" wheels.

Given that Lucid seems to have real suspension design chops (based, in part, on Rawlinson's background at Jaguar and Lotus) and in light of the claim that the Pirelli LM1 tires have been engineered with ride quality among the factors seeking to be optimized, we're going to risk the 21" wheels on the Lucid.

Worst case scenario, we'll switch to a smaller wheel if we find we don't like the 21" setup.

It's early for me still so your report once you have taken delivery will help me decide on the size(s). Given the road trip leaning towards
A. Take delivery on 19" and ship 21" home
B. Take delivery on 20" swap for snow tires at local tire shop, after Thanksgiving and back on April.

"B"

LOL

 

[hmp10]

Will do.

 

[hmp10]

Another concern. With Lucid's system of sensors. Will this interfere with radar/laser detectors and or laser jammers

I think you're asking whether the lidar on a Lucid will interfere with a laser jammer installed in a Lucid, no? I did a little digging and can't find anything on point. However, I did find an article suggesting that lidar mounted on an incoming car will not cause your laser detector to issue a false alert:

Autonomous Vehicles & K40 Laser Defusers

Autonomous Vehicles and K40 Laser Defusers: What You Need To Know

k40.com

 

[WildRide47]

I use the Valentine One radar detector. Don't remember the brand of the laser jammer I had custom installed. However the jammer is way too loud when it does activate. Almost caused me to get into an accident and give my wife a heart attack with its decibel level . My installer said he cannot lower the volume, that it is preset to make sure you hear it(understatement) The jammer is tied in with the Valentine One, so I do not have to touch any buttons on the Valentine. Custom buttons are installed in the ashtray of my Panamera Turbo to control both units. When my Lucid arrives, I will ask my installer about the Radenso system you use. Is it also that loud?