Lucid charger -- bi-directional for powering the house

[SaratogaLefty]

Yeah I have solar panels that essentially wipe out my electric charges. Also, FYI the majority of the PG&E blackouts here in Northern CA are quite often due to high winds and the fear of downed lined starting fires.

 

[Bunnylebowski]

My solar only makes my electricity bill zero in the summer, the rest of the year it pays for itself but then I still owe the energy co $ cuz of charging the cars. It’s so variable though as it’s been absurdly rainy this past year, and the panels they installed were based on projected consumption before I got my wife her EV which we charge all the time at home. Peter is right that efficiency of EVs matters so much because it reduces both financial and environmental cost. The Volvo gets 2.6 mi/Kwh, the Lucid is 3.5 average but I can push it to 4.2 or more by just driving the speed limit. In a situation where the electricity is out, I’d almost rather just drive the Lucid as far as possible to somewhere that did have electricity, but if it’s a big wide enough blackout then it would be best to just have V2H and solar and actually be “off grid”. I don’t see how that can be achieved yet though.

 

[SaratogaLefty]

My solar only makes my electricity bill zero in the summer, the rest of the year it pays for itself but then I still owe the energy co $ cuz of charging the cars. It’s so variable though as it’s been absurdly rainy this past year, and the panels they installed were based on projected consumption before I got my wife her EV which we charge all the time at home. Peter is right that efficiency of EVs matters so much because it reduces both financial and environmental cost. The Volvo gets 2.6 mi/Kwh, the Lucid is 3.5 average but I can push it to 4.2 or more by just driving the speed limit. In a situation where the electricity is out, I’d almost rather just drive the Lucid as far as possible to somewhere that did have electricity, but if it’s a big wide enough blackout then it would be best to just have V2H and solar and actually be “off grid”. I don’t see how that can be achieved yet though.

I'm really hoping the original poster who started this thread had good information regarding first quarter for V2H. Regarding solar panels I have looked at adding additional panels cause I know once I start charging our two EV's at home I will have electricity usage beyond what my current panels can offset. I still have a little over one year left on the Lucid for "free" EA charging and two years left on my wife's EV. Problem is the payback for adding additional panels at this point is still too long to make it worthwhile. Hopefully panel cost continues to decline and then I will reevaluate.

 

[Sandvinsd]

I have had solar since 2004, never offsetting 100% as back then it was not TOU but rather “how much did you use” and we were just trying to get down to baseline. I upgraded in 2007, again just to drop the increased consumption down to baseline levels. Fast forward to now and we have two EVs pulling a lot of power, although it is overnight at the cheapest TOU rates which we are now on. Nonetheless, my electric bills have increased substantially. A year ago we booked our second upgrade in panels and added 3 Tesla powerwalls before Net Metering 3.0 went into effect. Those were finally installed in October after lengthly city of San Diego permitting delays. I don’t need V2H now with the powerwalls and that saves the car batteries. But I am finally to the point where my generation is equal to or greater than the use. I just ended my last yearly true-up yesterday and I’ll see how we do next year as that will be entirely on the new system. My pencil calculations from winter production is that we will likely be net generators for the first time and my electric bill will be negative. While I thought V2H would be preferred, I am glad we have the Powerwalls for energy arbitrage (and for the very infrequent power outages) and conserving the car batteries without transferring energy to the home.

 

[SaratogaLefty]

So if you don't mind my asking how much did the three PowerWalls cost with installation? Now for those who don't have PowerWalls imagine what a selling point the V2H and if possible V2G could be worth to those considering purchasing a Lucid.

 

[HariK]

I will be happy if Lucid provides a V2L adapter 240v 2 phase output 80A I can use for power outage or on the road.

 

[DeaneG]

I will be happy if Lucid provides a V2L adapter 240v 2 phase output 80A I can use for power outage or on the road.

The J1772 connector does not have enough pins to support a neutral conductor - so only single phase 120V or 240V is possible, not split-phase 240V. Single phase 240V could be converted to split-phase with a 60Hz (auto)transformer, but this would be kind of bulky.

 

[terrycs]

I'm hoping for V2H availability before this offer runs out ...

 

[andrew61]

Why my rep said is the software upgrade was coming soon. But the hardware component of it was necessary was still a ways out.

 

[HariK]

The J1772 connector does not have enough pins to support a neutral conductor - so only single phase 120V or 240V is possible, not split-phase 240V. Single phase 240V could be converted to split-phase with a 60Hz (auto)transformer, but this would be kind of bulky.

View attachment 17184

I see

 

[andrew61]

I see

I'm not sure i understand when you need single vs split-phase 240. Can someone explain? Thanks!

 

[Adnillien]

I'm not sure i understand when you need single vs split-phase 240. Can someone explain? Thanks!

110/120V outlets/circuits are just one leg of the 240V with a neutral return path. Electric current requires a full circle where current flows to the load, through the load and through the return path. A 240V can be divided into two 120V legs, one hot 240V wire to neutral and the other hot 240V wire to neutral. This creates two 120V circuits but both require a neutral wire. Homes have both 120V circuits and 240V circuits so will need a neutral path. 120V The Lucid charger does not have a neutral. There are still ways to create the neutral, but they require external components. This is why people are saying that additional equipment will be required for V2H.

 

[HariK]

I'm not sure i understand when you need single vs split-phase 240. Can someone explain? Thanks!

The household circuit in the US basically has 4 wires. Ground l1 neutral l2. L1 to neutral is 120v phase 1, l2 to neutral is phase 2, l1 to l2 is 240v. What was pointed out was that ccs connector has only l1 l2 and no neutral. To create a neutral a 1:1 20kva transformer is needed externally. One side has l1 l2 and the other side has a center tap which becomes neutral. Then it matches the US household circuit breaker. That is a big and expensive transformer not inside lucid.

 

[DeaneG]

The household circuit in the US basically has 4 wires. Ground l1 neutral l2. L1 to neutral is 120v phase 1, l2 to neutral is phase 2, l1 to l2 is 240v. What was pointed out was that ccs connector has only l1 l2 and no neutral. To create a neutral a 1:1 20kva transformer is needed externally. One side has l1 l2 and the other side has a center tap which becomes neutral. Then it matches the US household circuit breaker. That is a big and expensive transformer not inside lucid.

Creation of a neutral line could also be done with a three-terminal 20kVA autotransformer, which would be about two cubic feet in size and weigh about 200 lbs.
Or neutral could be created using 20kW worth of power electronics. This method would be tricky to implement in a way that would protect household devices in the event of a fault.

The Air would work by itself for 220V European households (no "middle tap" needed) - only a transfer switch is necessary.

 

[HariK]

Creation of a neutral line could also be done with a three-terminal 20kVA autotransformer, which would be about two cubic feet in size and weigh about 200 lbs.
Or neutral could be created using 20kW worth of power electronics. This method would be tricky to implement in a way that would protect household devices in the event of a fault.

The Air would work by itself for 220V European households (no "middle tap" needed) - only a transfer switch is necessary.

Yes

 

[terrycs]

It looks like there are already other manufacturers that have enabled V2H capability though the CCS port. I'm not an electrician, but this article seems to imply the vehicle itself has to have the capability built in ...

Bidirectional EV charging explained - V2G, V2H & V2L — Clean Energy Reviews

Bidirectional EV charging is an emerging technology that is set to transform how electric vehicles are used. We explain how bidirectional chargers work and the various technologies available including Vehicle-to-grid (V2G) and Vehicle-to-home (V2H), and Vehicle-to-load (V2L)

www.cleanenergyreviews.info

Does this mean cars with built in V2H capability also require additional transformers?

 

[scal_air]

The power utilities really try to squeeze every nickel out of you. When solar first came out, net metering was really NET metering - you paid for electricity used after subtracting electricity produced. Now with the latest net metering (at least in California), the differing time of use prices, really make it mandatory to install batteries to recoup your investment. The added cost, along with increasing "delivery fees" makes it less likely that you will consider solar. As proof that the new metering agreements are so unfavorable, here's an article estimating that the majority of current solar sales/installation companies are at risk for going out of business

Insurer: 75% of California rooftop solar companies are high risk, more bankruptcy on the way

Solar Insure told <b>pv magazine USA</b> the financial stability of rooftop solar companies operating in California is in question. Despite this, California reaffirmed recent anti-solar decisions in a recent appeals court hearing.

pv-magazine-usa.com

Really is a terrible step backwards in terms of green energy promotion and I urge everyone to email their congressman to tell them that we need to protect our industries.

As has been pointed out so many times, a Lucid vehicle represents a minimum of 6 powerwalls in terms of storage. What an advantage to allow the flexibility of using your car to power during the time when the utilities are charging the most per kw/hr (4p-9p) and charge up at times of solar generation or lowest priced kw/hr periods. Use that $65K towards a Lucid and not a Powerwall! Heck buy one and lease one too rather than spend money on the Powerwall. It's a promotion that writes itself!

Sorry for the long post and semi rant, but there are some of us ( including Lucid owners who hold shares of stock), that really think V2H should be a high priority. Something that would benefit both owners and the company too!

 

[SaratogaLefty]

It was my understanding originally that the Lucid Connected Home Charging Station was "bi-directional" capable and further that the Lucid itself contained the necessary converter mechanism to facilitate bi-directional charging. As I understand the problems for implementation are some additional software and also hardware to ensure some form of automatic disconnect from the "Grid" to enable the car to power the home during a blackout. The hardware and software must exist in some form because Ford (F150 Lightening) is already functional (PG&E Pilot program). As has been pointed out Lucid has many other priorities with their limited resources and I understand the situation but I just wish Lucid Management would step up and tell us if this is really going to happen sometime in the future. It was already discussed and actively promoted online in the "early days" when some of us purchased our vehicles, so I would think some sort of updated information should be forthcoming and would be greatly appreciated.

 

[DeaneG]

It looks like there are already other manufacturers that have enabled V2H capability though the CCS port....
Does this mean cars with built in V2H capability also require additional transformers?

Other cars that have V2H capability are achieving it by using a full CCS connector on their home wall-mounted EV charging stations (EVSEs), like those on a DC fast charging station, rather than the more-convenient J1772 connector like on Lucid's LHCS and most other companies' EVSEs. They pass DC directly from the car's battery through the CCS connector's DC pins, which powers an inverter built into, or connected to, their EVSE. They don't need a transformer, as the separate inverter has the necessary neutral connection.

 

[SaratogaLefty]

Other cars that have V2H capability are achieving it by using a full CCS connector on their home EVSE, like those on a DC fast charging station, rather than the more-convenient J1772 like on Lucid's LHCS and other companies' common wall-mounted EV charging stations (EVSE)s. They pass DC directly from the car's battery through the CCS connector's DC pins, which powers an inverter built into, or connected to, their EVSE. They don't need a transformer, as the separate inverter has the necessary neutral connection.

Deane, I thought early on Lucid promoted the fact that they had the inverter already built in to the car whereas others would need an external converter??