Gravity Tire Replacement Comparison

[hmp10]

The Air DE's GVWR is 6283 lbs. Curb weight is 5236 lbs. On the OEM Pirelli P Zero 4's, all LM1.

We have the LM2's on our Air DE-P, and they're wearing very well so far despite some fairly frisky driving.

 

[hydbob]

Do people paying this much for a car really take tire replacement cost into consideration?

 

[037]

Do people paying this much for a car really take tire replacement cost into consideration?

Yes, we aren’t at a level of having someone drive us to our private jet while a special car team makes sure the maintenance is up to date. There is no second vehicle behind us with an extra spare as the car space is taken up by a recliner and a fridge.

 

[borski]

Do people paying this much for a car really take tire replacement cost into consideration?

Yes.

 

[jered]

Do people paying this much for a car really take tire replacement cost into consideration?

Absolutely, especially for a daily driver we intend to keep for a long time. The sort of person for whom this doesn't matter is one who has a garage of 20 specialty cars that never get driven.

Another important aspect we haven't talked about is service. We bought our X because it was a peformance SUV, but also because Tesla had (at the time) outstanding service and support. This is the thing I worry the most about with Lucid.

In comparison, there is basically no situation that I can recommend that you own a Ferrari (unless your sole interest is in saying "I own a Ferrari"). This may depend on where you live, but if something breaks on a low-volume specialty sports car (and something WILL break, I guarantee that) you may be looking at a 4 month wait for them to get around to hand carving and shipping the parts from Italy.

There seems to be a whole category of sports car which is "drive less than 100 miles a year, can go fast but you wouldn't want to get any bugs smashed on it", and then you feel good about yourself sleeping at night knowing its in the garage. I really don't understand this. (Apologies to any Ferrari owners in the forum; they're actually pretty good compared to other manufacturers....)

 

[borski]

Absolutely, especially for a daily driver we intend to keep for a long time. The sort of person for whom this doesn't matter is one who has a garage of 20 specialty cars that never get driven.

Another important aspect we haven't talked about is service. We bought our X because it was a peformance SUV, but also because Tesla had (at the time) outstanding service and support. This is the thing I worry the most about with Lucid.

In comparison, there is basically no situation that I can recommend that you own a Ferrari (unless your sole interest is in saying "I own a Ferrari"). This may depend on where you live, but if something breaks on a low-volume specialty sports car (and something WILL break, I guarantee that) you may be looking at a 4 month wait for them to get around to hand carving and shipping the parts from Italy.

There seems to be a whole category of sports car which is "drive less than 100 miles a year, can go fast but you wouldn't want to get any bugs smashed on it", and then you feel good about yourself sleeping at night knowing its in the garage. I really don't understand this. (Apologies to any Ferrari owners in the forum; they're actually pretty good compared to other manufacturers....)

If you like collecting cars, go right ahead. Some people love that. One of my favorite Lucid owners still owns the very first car he went on his first date with his wife in. It’s in pristine condition. He almost never drives it.

Other people collect stamps. Or tarantulas. Or mechanical keyboards.

As for service: Lucid is at least aware of the issue, and not going mass market. In the Bay Area, for example, they’re about to open San Jose because Millbrae is slammed, but the service itself is still fantastic. They’re trying to plan expansions where needed, etc. There will be growing pains, but they’ll get there.

 

[illopp00]

We had a very lengthy discussion on another thread about Lucid's tire choices for each of the wheel options -- a discussion that was especially enlightened by @PetevB who is an engineer and a car technical writer.

Lucid did not make the tire choices randomly for the Gravity. Each tire/wheel combo was chosen to accomplish specific purposes. The Hankooks on the smallest wheels were clearly chosen to optimize range, as the wide gap between their EPA rating and the other wheel options indicates. The Hankooks consistently show themselves across controlled tire tests by professional reviewers as the most range-efficient tires . . . but it comes at the cost of wet handling and braking, where they consistently test at or near the bottom.

At the other end, the P Zero PZ5 Pirellis on the largest wheels are Pirelli's newest performance tire, and Lucid worked with Pirelli to tune the LM1 version of the tire specifically to Lucid's specs. As far as I know, Lucid is the first manufacturer to mount them as OEM tires. The early reviews of this tire are placing it at the pinnacle of wet and dry handling and braking for road cars outside the realm of specialized race and track tires.

A good bit of the astonishing handling people are reporting for the Gravity comes from the cars mounted with these tires. One element of why may be the unusually square shoulders of this tire. Although the rear tires across all three wheel options have the same nominal width -- 285mm -- the tread patch at the pavement is considerably wider with the Pirellis: 10" vs. 8.9" for the mid-size Michelins and 8.6" for the Hankooks.

At the middle wheel option, the Michelins seem to be a choice driven by the desire to provide an all-season option that leans toward the performance rather than the efficiency end of the spectrum. While the EPA range of this mid-size combo is given to be the same as the large wheel option, tests of the Michelins have shown them to be among the best all-seasons in terms of traction, especially in wet and dry braking.

You might find some cheaper tires to put on your Gravity, but you'll very likely be giving up something Lucid strove to give you in terms of range and/or driving performance.

I am also trying to balance looks and function. The 21/22s with the Michelin's will do this. Also, if you are getting the dynamic Handling Pack, why not have something that can show off the Lucid calipers?

 

[hmp10]

I am also trying to balance looks and function. The 21/22s with the Michelin's will do this. Also, if you are getting the dynamic Handling Pack, why not have something that can show off the Lucid calipers?

I actually think the 21/22 mid-size wheel looks the best. That's what we've ordered for the Aurora Green GDE. We're putting the larger wheels on the Abyss Black GDE which we're setting up as the "sport driver".

 

[hmp10]

The sort of person for whom this doesn't matter is one who has a garage of 20 specialty cars that never get driven.

That's not me at all, but I'm with @hydbob. I'm just not going to worry about a few hundred extra dollars for tires every couple of years on a $140K car.

 

[Leftlane]

I drive a ton - usually 25-30k miles a year - so I pay attention to tire prices since I often have to replace every year (if I’m lucky). I do consider it just the cost of driving bad*** cars so I wince and pay the premium.

 

[Steveinarizona]

We had a very lengthy discussion on another thread about Lucid's tire choices for each of the wheel options -- a discussion that was especially enlightened by @PetevB who is an engineer and a car technical writer.

Lucid did not make the tire choices randomly for the Gravity. Each tire/wheel combo was chosen to accomplish specific purposes. The Hankooks on the smallest wheels were clearly chosen to optimize range, as the wide gap between their EPA rating and the other wheel options indicates. The Hankooks consistently show themselves across controlled tire tests by professional reviewers as the most range-efficient tires . . . but it comes at the cost of wet handling and braking, where they consistently test at or near the bottom.

At the other end, the P Zero PZ5 Pirellis on the largest wheels are Pirelli's newest performance tire, and Lucid worked with Pirelli to tune the LM1 version of the tire specifically to Lucid's specs. As far as I know, Lucid is the first manufacturer to mount them as OEM tires. The early reviews of this tire are placing it at the pinnacle of wet and dry handling and braking for road cars outside the realm of specialized race and track tires.

A good bit of the astonishing handling people are reporting for the Gravity comes from the cars mounted with these tires. One element of why may be the unusually square shoulders of this tire. Although the rear tires across all three wheel options have the same nominal width -- 285mm -- the tread patch at the pavement is considerably wider with the Pirellis: 10" vs. 8.9" for the mid-size Michelins and 8.6" for the Hankooks.

At the middle wheel option, the Michelins seem to be a choice driven by the desire to provide an all-season option that leans toward the performance rather than the efficiency end of the spectrum. While the EPA range of this mid-size combo is given to be the same as the large wheel option, tests of the Michelins have shown them to be among the best all-seasons in terms of traction, especially in wet and dry braking.

You might find some cheaper tires to put on your Gravity, but you'll very likely be giving up something Lucid strove to give you in terms of range and/or driving performance.

Nice thoughtful comment. There are three basic requirements for tires: life (range); performance; noise. They all tend to be in opposition to each other. Best performance tires tend to be noisier and have a shorter life than tires that are aimed at range or noise. Etc. Each of us has to make a decision based on which of those requirements are most important to the owner.

The OP didn't say where he is located. If he is in Montana, for example, summer tires should be out of the question unless he plans to replace them each winter; but if he is in Scottsdale or Miami, and doesn't travel to cold climates, then summer tires make a lot more sense.

 

[TahoeMichael]

We had a very lengthy discussion on another thread about Lucid's tire choices for each of the wheel options -- a discussion that was especially enlightened by @PetevB who is an engineer and a car technical writer.

Lucid did not make the tire choices randomly for the Gravity. Each tire/wheel combo was chosen to accomplish specific purposes. The Hankooks on the smallest wheels were clearly chosen to optimize range, as the wide gap between their EPA rating and the other wheel options indicates. The Hankooks consistently show themselves across controlled tire tests by professional reviewers as the most range-efficient tires . . . but it comes at the cost of wet handling and braking, where they consistently test at or near the bottom.

At the other end, the P Zero PZ5 Pirellis on the largest wheels are Pirelli's newest performance tire, and Lucid worked with Pirelli to tune the LM1 version of the tire specifically to Lucid's specs. As far as I know, Lucid is the first manufacturer to mount them as OEM tires. The early reviews of this tire are placing it at the pinnacle of wet and dry handling and braking for road cars outside the realm of specialized race and track tires.

A good bit of the astonishing handling people are reporting for the Gravity comes from the cars mounted with these tires. One element of why may be the unusually square shoulders of this tire. Although the rear tires across all three wheel options have the same nominal width -- 285mm -- the tread patch at the pavement is considerably wider with the Pirellis: 10" vs. 8.9" for the mid-size Michelins and 8.6" for the Hankooks.

At the middle wheel option, the Michelins seem to be a choice driven by the desire to provide an all-season option that leans toward the performance rather than the efficiency end of the spectrum. While the EPA range of this mid-size combo is given to be the same as the large wheel option, tests of the Michelins have shown them to be among the best all-seasons in terms of traction, especially in wet and dry braking.

You might find some cheaper tires to put on your Gravity, but you'll very likely be giving up something Lucid strove to give you in terms of range and/or driving performance.

I generally have a lot of faith in Lucid's engineering team. When they pick a tire, I'm betting that they're a lot smarter and more expert than I am. My only concern with their choices is that none of them are 3PMSF rated. I don't think that's the end-all-be-all of tire ratings, but I'd love for someone from Lucid's engineering team to chime in on what they recommend for those of us driving in the snow. My particular challenge is that I do mixed weather driving in California, where I can be in the snow in Lake Tahoe at one end of my drive, and 70F when I'm around Sacramento. CrossClimate2 has performed quite well for me on my current vehicle.

If anyone has any insight about which tires Lucid was using when testing the Gravity in winter conditions (see

), I'd love to know.

 

[TahoeMichael]

If you like collecting cars, go right ahead. Some people love that. One of my favorite Lucid owners still owns the very first car he went on his first date with his wife in. It’s in pristine condition. He almost never drives it.

Other people collect stamps. Or tarantulas. Or mechanical keyboards.

As for service: Lucid is at least aware of the issue, and not going mass market. In the Bay Area, for example, they’re about to open San Jose because Millbrae is slammed, but the service itself is still fantastic. They’re trying to plan expansions where needed, etc. There will be growing pains, but they’ll get there.

What do you mean by "not going mass market"? They're planning to launch a mid-market vehicle next year. I applaud them for that, but it does seem likely to put the same kind of pressure on their service network that Tesla experienced when they started selling larger numbers of vehicles.

 

[TahoeMichael]

I have the Vredesteins on my Model 3 and I like them.
The CC2 is available in the 21/22 sizes but speed rating is "only" 149mph so they don't show up in search (and some shops won't install them).

Good to hear some positive experience. I don't know anything about Vredestein, and so have little opinion about the brand.

Looking more comprehensively on the Tire Rack site, I see there are actually more options if you consider the 21"/22" wheels as well. For some reason, if you search for the CrossClimate2's directly, Tire Rack shows them, but if you just type in the Gravity's tire sizes (no speed rating requested) it doesn't show them. The 149 mph rating doesn't bother me. I don't think I've driven more than 100 mph in the last 20 years.

The full set:

20"/21":
Vredestein Quatrac Pro+: $1,309.08 (186 MPH speed rating)

21"/22":
Vredestein Quatrac Pro+: $1,349.08 (186 MPH speed rating)
Vredestein Wintrac Pro: $1,283.46 (168 MPH speed rating) (discontinued, limited stock)
Pirelli Scorpion Winter: $2,231.58 (168 MPH speed rating)
Michelin CrossClimate 2: $1,769.96 (149 MPH speed rating)

Tire Rack not showing the CrossClimate2 does make me wonder if there are other viable 3PMSF tire choices it also isn't showing. Particularly tires from Nokian's catalog.

I don't know how much I trust Tire Rack's tire testing, but they do publish some numbers. They overall rate the Quadtrac Pro+ higher than the CrossClimate 2, but on the specifics that really matter to me, the CrossClimate 2 rates a bit better. I worry about not being able to stop more than I worry about not being able to accelerate or hold my line in a corner. That's partly a product of me not driving all that aggressively through the corners.

• CC2 has better dry track stopping performance (127' vs 135')
• CC2 has better wet track stopping performance (153' vs 158')
• CC2 has better snow braking (55.8' vs 63.4')
• CC2 has better ice braking (46.2' vs 55.9')

The availability of the CrossClimate 2 and the larger number of choices at the 21"/22" wheel size may be enough to push me to that, away from the 20"/21" choice that I selected when I put my reservation in. The conversation prompted me to send David Lickfold a message asking what he'd recommend for driving in the snow. Don't know how likely he is to respond, but I'll let people know what he says if I hear anything back.

 

[borski]

What do you mean by "not going mass market"? They're planning to launch a mid-market vehicle next year. I applaud them for that, but it does seem likely to put the same kind of pressure on their service network that Tesla experienced when they started selling larger numbers of vehicles.

50-60k, not 20-35k. That's all I meant.

They're building a Lexux/Infiniti/Acura/etc., not a Corolla.

 

[TahoeMichael]

...

The availability of the CrossClimate 2 and the larger number of choices at the 21"/22" wheel size may be enough to push me to that, away from the 20"/21" choice that I selected when I put my reservation in. The conversation prompted me to send David Lickfold a message asking what he'd recommend for driving in the snow. Don't know how likely he is to respond, but I'll let people know what he says if I hear anything back.

David Lickfold responded to my tire query:

For mixed use including cold temperatures and snow, both the Hankooks and the Michelins are great. The Hankook has the edge in efficiency, and the Michelin has the slight edge in handling attributes, but both are fantastic tires. For the last three weeks we’ve been running all three available tire configs on the Autobahn and Nürburgring for further controls improvements (coming soon via OTA) and Europe sign off, and they’re all really good. I’d very happily run any of them on my Gravity. All of them are “LM1” marked, showing that they’re bespoke developments between Lucid and the tire supplier. We put thousands of hours into the development and tuning of every tire we offer, so that they give a great blend of ride, handling, steering, braking, performance, efficiency and low noise - specifically tuned for Air and Gravity. The tire-chassis-controls relationship is crucial, and the three are tuned together. Off-shelf tires are generic, and just can’t give the same optimisations.

We will offer two dedicated winter tires, both of which are for the 20”/21” configuration. We haven’t announced much more on that yet, but watch this space!

It's fascinating to hear that Lucid expects to continue improving the Gravity's dynamics.

It sounds like those of us with a need for cold weather tires will eventually have a Lucid-tuned option available for the 20"/21" wheels.

 

[hmp10]

David Lickfold responded to my tire query:

. . . "The Hankook has the edge in efficiency, and the Michelin has the slight edge in handling attributes, but both are fantastic tires." . . .

Lickfold's response was very interesting and really does show the attention Lucid puts into the details of driving dynamics. I agree with Jason Cammisa that Lucid is the only rival to Porsche in this regard in the mainstream market.

But his comment on the Hankooks raised a question. Jonathan Benson of "Tyre Reviews" is one of the best and most comprehensive tire reviewers in the game. Major tire manufacturers seek his input during product development phases. A point he often makes is that there is sometimes an imbalance between the focus put on dry handling versus wet handling, and it is a tire's wet handling and braking characteristics that most often gets a driver into trouble. Consequently, his testing always puts an emphasis on performance in the wet.

Reviewers agree that the Hankooks are generally a very nicely balanced tire across most criteria -- ride, noise, dry handling, tread wear, and with particularly good efficiency. However, the Hankooks consistently come up short on wet performance metrics both in objective testing and also in subjective impressions. The situation is even more pronounced in owner reviews on sites such as Tire Rack, where the Hankooks are routinely trashed for scary wet handling experiences.

I just can't help wondering whether there was so much pressure put on the chassis team to produce at least one wheel/tire configuration that would put Lucid over the top on EPA ratings that wet handling was given a bit of a pass with the Hankooks -- especially with the Escalade IQ's 460-mile claim looming in the background. Lucid rode the range horse hard in marketing the Air as the longest-range EV luxury sedan on the market. I'm pretty sure they tried everything they could to ride it again for the Gravity.

Maybe Lucid was able to do something about wet performance in working with Hankook on the LM1 version. It would be interesting to see that tire put through a comparison test on a Gravity.

 

[037]

I think comparing Hankooks to Michelin traction in the wet/snow would require Hankook to be way improved and Michelin to be made way worse, otherwise they should not be even similar. Efficiency and wet traction are just in opposite corners.

Obviously need hard data which Lucid will not be providing, as everything might be just fine with a very calm and measured driver who stays the speed limit and brakes gently.

 

[hmp10]

Good to hear some positive experience. I don't know anything about Vredestein, and so have little opinion about the brand.

Vredestein is a century-old Dutch tire manufacturer that is better known in Europe than the U.S. Although it is now owned by Apollo, an Indian tire manufacturer, its tires are still made in the Netherlands with some of the engineering work done by Italy's Giugiaro. It is a well-respected brand.

We now have the Quatrac Pro+ on our Honda Odyssey. It is the best all-season tire we've had on our Odysseys since we started driving them in 2011. In fact, it is the only tire that has tamed the car's tendency toward wheel spin when accelerating from a stop in wet conditions. (Narrow tires, front-wheel drive, and a heavy minivan are not the ideal combo for such a situation.)

​

 

[hydbob]

Yes, we aren’t at a level of having someone drive us to our private jet while a special car team makes sure the maintenance is up to date. There is no second vehicle behind us with an extra spare as the car space is taken up by a recliner and a fridge.

I mean it's $400-$1300 over 20-30k miles depending on what you are doing on a $120k vehicle...