Gravity; SUV or Minivan

[hmp10]

I wouldn’t be surprised if Tesla fanboys are spreading this rumor.

Well, in fairness, there are some bona fide Lucid fans who see minivan elements in the Gravity design, and you certainly can't dismiss those views as illegitimate.

But, yeah, a lot of the "it's a minivan" stuff on the wider internet has the definite flavor of what you see from the fan boy base.

 

[hydbob]

The only takeaway I've gotten from this whole thread is that a lot of people care too damn much about what other people think.

 

[hmp10]

The only takeaway I've gotten from this whole thread is that a lot of people care too damn much about what other people think.

If I cared what people think about what I drive, I wouldn't be driving a minivan myself and still wishing the Gravity had sliding rear doors.

But isn't what people think is what Lucid's marketing efforts -- and every other company's -- are all about? Isn't what people think what drives product successes and failures?

My guess is that Lucid badly wants the market to perceive the Gravity as an SUV, not a minivan.

 

[Bobby]

Exactly.

I've been driving minivans since 2011, and I've seen the Gravity three times in person and sat in it on one of those viewings. The first thing I said as I approached it for the first time was that it reminded me of a bullet train. I have never said that about any minivan I've ever seen. (And I was caught off guard when, a couple of weeks later, I heard Derek Jenkins say in an interview that bullet trains had been one of the design inspirations of the Gravity . . . and airplanes as well, another element I saw in the design.)

I know some of the posters on this topic have seen the Gravity in person, but I wonder how many of those with such strong opinions about it's being a minivan have actually seen it in person. The Gravity is one of those objects that are very difficult to capture well in a photograph.

(Jeez, I've got to get a wired keyboard. I'm going through way too many batteries on this one.)

The only opinion that really matters is your own. It doesn’t matter if people call a station wagon, a minivan, a truck, a crossover, or an SUV. Opinion of others simply should not matter. People have said that the Air looks like a Buick. I don’t know if that is a compliment or a criticism, but I don’t really care either way. People have said that they cut line for the trunk on the Air looks funny. I don’t see it that way and I understand its utility. People have said that the inside of the Air looks funny because of the two different colors between the front and rear seats. I think that’s a really cool appearance. Once again, I don’t care what other people think. Well, at least most other people. Why “most”? Keep reading.

I was 100% set on getting a Gravity to replace my wife’s aging SUV from the very minute it was first announced. It doesn’t hurt that I’m a huge Lucid fan and I love my current GT. I loved everything about it, including the look. Perfect car for us… Until my wife saw it IN PERSON and upon first glance announced that she felt it looked like a minivan and didn’t appeal to her. I tried to convince her otherwise, but she had made her decision. Therefore we decided to shop elsewhere. After all, she will be driving it and she wants to be proud of whatever vehicle she selects. She has had this anti-minivan thing since the beginning, even when my three children were all in car seats, she opted for a Suburban instead of a minivan, which probably would’ve been a heck of a lot easier to drive, park and refuel. Oh well. So, some people will feel that way. It shouldn’t matter to you.

 

[hmp10]

The only opinion that really matters is your own. It doesn’t matter if people call a station wagon, a minivan, a truck, a crossover, or an SUV. None of us should be so weak that the opinion of another matters that much.

I really wish this weren't being made about my ego or self-image or whatever. I drive what I like and don't give a rat's ass what other people think about it.

But I am a Lucid stock owner and someone who desperately wants the brand to grow and thrive at the cutting edge of EV automotive engineering.

The Gravity is meant to be the start of moving Lucid's brand and products more toward the mainstream. SUVs are part of that mainstream. Minivans are not. Launching a $95-125K vehicle that the public perceives as a minivan is a move out onto a limb where no other carmaker has cared or dared to go.

For Lucid and its success, what people decide the Gravity is matters very much.

If doing my pitifully tiny part in this little corner of the internet to try to sway opinions away from identifying the Gravity as a minivan is so offensive, then go ahead and shoot me now. It might make for a better day all around.

 

[McGriddle]

View attachment 25320

The green one must be a prototype, and not an accurate representation of production.

Here's another shot, but this time a screen cap from Out of Spec Reviews' YouTube video reviewing the Gravity. In this case, the vehicle appears to be production spec since elsewhere in the video you can see the NACS port on the left rear quarter.

The front overhang is similar to the green prototype from the earlier images. Again, not minivan at all. Granted, it would look more SUV-like above if the suspension were to be left in a higher setting.

For me, SUVs have similar features to trucks: a lifted two-box design, larger wheels proportionately compared to passenger vehicles (minivans), shorter overhangs, and improved ground clearance. The Gravity ticks all those boxes and doesn't have a sliding door. The aerodynamic shape is the only thing that throws it off slightly since SUVs typically were the opposite of aerodynamic, especially with a more upright windshield.

 

[Knucklehead]

Here's another shot, but this time a screen cap from Out of Spec Reviews' YouTube video reviewing the Gravity. In this case, the vehicle appears to be production spec since elsewhere in the video you can see the NACS port on the left rear quarter.

View attachment 25322

The front overhang is similar to the green prototype from the earlier images. Again, not minivan at all. Granted, it would look more SUV-like above if the suspension were to be left in a higher setting.

For me, SUVs have similar features to trucks: a lifted two-box design, larger wheels proportionately compared to passenger vehicles (minivans), shorter overhangs, and improved ground clearance. The Gravity ticks all those boxes and doesn't have a sliding door. The aerodynamic shape is the only thing that throws it off slightly since SUVs typically were the opposite of aerodynamic, especially with a more upright windshield.

I really, really want to see a production Gravity in person. In that picture with Kyle, it does not look anything like a minivan - IMO, anyway.

She has had this anti-minivan thing since the beginning, even when my three children were all in car seats, she opted for a Suburban instead of a minivan, which probably would’ve been a heck of a lot easier to drive, park and refuel. Oh well. So, some people will feel that way.

Your wife sounds like mine. I hope she does not have the same take yours does. She hates minivans.

 

[pyle112]

I really, really want to see a production Gravity in person. In that picture with Kyle, it does not look anything like a minivan - IMO, anyway.



Your wife sounds like mine. I hope she does not have the same take yours does. She hates minivans.

I'm probably in the minority in wanting an electric minivan; but I also like SUVs. Hope the captains chairs come out soon and I hope this minivan nonsense isn't what is keeping them from that option.

 

[hydbob]

I really wish this weren't being made about my ego or self-image or whatever. I drive what I like and don't give a rat's ass what other people think about it.

But I am a Lucid stock owner and someone who desperately wants the brand to grow and thrive at the cutting edge of EV automotive engineering.

The Gravity is meant to be the start of moving Lucid's brand and products more toward the mainstream. SUVs are part of that mainstream. Minivans are not. Launching a $95-125K vehicle that the public perceives as a minivan is a move out onto a limb where no other carmaker has cared or dared to go.

For Lucid and its success, what people decide the Gravity is matters very much.

If doing my pitifully tiny part in this little corner of the internet to try to sway opinions away from identifying the Gravity as a minivan is so offensive, then go ahead and shoot me now. It might make for a better day all around.

Lucid will be fine. The Gravity is being well received by all the reviewers which is what drives the initial perception of the vehicle. The Air was just as divisive when it was first released as well. To me that's a good thing.

 

[Bobby]

I really wish this weren't being made about my ego or self-image or whatever. I drive what I like and don't give a rat's ass what other people think about it.

My apologies if it sounded that way, because it certainly wasn’t meant that way. In fact, it had nothing to do with you. It had to do with me and my personal experience with the vehicle.

 

[Batteryman]

Anyone who doesn’t buy a Lucid Gravity just because they perceive it minivanesque is on them…they will be missing a magnificent vehicle just because of some minor questionable personal notion. I would feel very sorry for their loss.

In the meantime, I’ll be enjoying my wonderful new Gravity Touring!

 

[msaunders9430]

If doing my pitifully tiny part in this little corner of the internet to try to sway opinions away from identifying the Gravity as a minivan is so offensive, then go ahead and shoot me now.

Oh no no no. Shoot you now? You're not getting out of this that easy.
You stay right here in this little corner of the Internet.
You've been appointed CWO and you're doing a bang-up job!

 

[msaunders9430]

Anyone who doesn’t buy a Lucid Gravity just because they perceive it minivanesque is on them…they will be missing a magnificent vehicle just because of some minor questionable personal notion. I would feel very sorry for their loss.

In the meantime, I’ll be enjoying my wonderful new Gravity Touring!

That's where I am on this.
Can't wait!!!

And yet, we know the minivanesque perception could be a major "questionable personal notion" for some.

I don't like sliding rear doors and so I ask myself if I would be willing to pass on the Gravity for that reason.
I ask myself if I didn't like the look of the Gravity, would I pass on it.
I dislike the look, options/features, performance, etc. of the competing EVs (Macan, EX90/Polestar 3, R1S, EQS, Vistiq) more than I dislike sliding doors or the look of the Gravity.

Gravity would win out because of the options/features, performance, etc.

Which EV has more pros than cons?
Minimize the losses.

 

[msaunders9430]

I mean really, the amount of time energy and keystrokes we have all spent (myself included) discussing whether this is a minivan or an SUV? It seems really immaterial in the grand scheme of things (and yet I myself felt compelled to chime in on the topic...again, LOL)...

The time, energy, and keystrokes are also because "forum traffic seems slow".

 

[flarbear]

I don't think there is any truly defining visual characteristic of what constitutes a minivan vs an SUV. I think all of the design details that people are pointing to are side effects of the real distinction.

They are both vehicles that live in different parts of the packaging (people and cargo) vs performance (vs off-roadability) graph. And there is some overlap in their Venn diagram.

An SUV will prioritize the performance (and off-road) aspects and still has good packaging mainly because it is so big. (I put off-road in parentheses because many current SUVs aren't really designed for that, but they wear the proper clothing to look the part.)

A minivan prioritizes packaging over all else and some will have more performance than others perhaps even to the point of the most muscular minivan having better acceleration than the weakest SUV, but in general they prefer fuel economy over raw performance and their performance has only been improving over time as the design matures and more powerful engines can be efficient and fit in smaller spaces that leave more room for the main concern - packaging.

But then we come to EVs where "performance" is easy and does not require allocating a lot of room to an engine bay for a big engine or floor space for drivetrain. It can embrace any of those aspects that minivans and SUVs target with far fewer constraints.

So, the Gravity has an extremely aggressive "windshield over front wheels" proportion that speaks "small engine, low performance" to the gas powered expectations we've evolved with. That preconception doesn't apply here since electric drivetrains don't require a huge engine bay, but it speaks in the backs of our minds and some will focus on that. They can even spend a ton of that space for a huge frunk while they're at it.

Wheel wells suggest off-road capabilities and so a minivan doesn't require very aggressive wheels/tires/wells, but the Gravity does have them. This is probably the design detail that is more universal for SUVs and doesn't depend on EV vs gas power plants. Some will focus on that. I'd say that it depends on whether the prospective owner intends to off-road as to whether or not that will drive their impression, but that is pure speculation on my part.

Minivans pretty much need 3 (spacious) rows or they will be laughed off the soccer field, so features related to ingress/egress and passenger capacity may make the difference to some and without an aggressive "engine bay" the Gravity could be seen by some as prioritizing packaging over performance (but it doesn't due to EV magic). Similarly, it's lack of apparent sliding doors might thus jump into the "what does this look like" equation for many people.

So now we come to the Gravity which can have enormous capacity in a smaller space because it doesn't need to waste so much space for a drivetrain. It can have off-road capability becaue EV power delivery is more flexible than single-engine-mutliple-differential gas power trains. It doesn't need an engine bay at all. You could design something like the VW microbus (I see you ID.buzz) with Urus performance. So, it can have a very short hood that starts to resemble some minivans' sloping "barely big enough for an I-4 gas engine" hood.

So are people really worried (whether with their cerebral cortex or their lizard brain) about performance and doubting that the object they see in front of them has the performance that their ego demands? It does. EV magic provides that regardless of whether the external measurements match our ingrained preconceptions/biases.

EVs could be designed to resemble their gas powered intention-cousins, but maybe we need to evolve beyond our existing ICE-weaned preconceptions and learn a new design language?

 

[flarbear]

Related to (maybe a summary/collary) my previous post...

Performance is no longer a visible feature of an EV. Motor power can vary quite a lot with very little change in volume.
Packaging will be better with less visible bulk due to fewer motive parts and systems.
Off-road performance doesn't automatically require a huge ground clearance to fit advanced differentials. (Ground clearance is more of a logistical issue than a packaging requirement.)

Starting with the practical goals doesn't necessarily yield the same object as it did when vehicles were powered by gas engines.

 

[illopp00]

So, then, this is a minivan?

View attachment 25301



And this, too, is a minivan then?

View attachment 25300

Honestly, you're just inventing whatever "standards" suit you to bolster your argument that the Gravity is a minivan.

There's not a single characteristic I have seen anyone claim in this discussion to categorically define a minivan or an SUV that I cannot find an example of its presence in a vehicle of the other category.

Lucid chooses to call the Gravity an SUV, just as Tesla chooses to call the Model X an SUV and Rivian chooses to call the R1S an SUV. Why are Tesla's and Rivian's categorizations almost universally accepted but Lucid's is being picked apart using cherry-picked standards every way from Sunday?

Rawlinson said the Gravity is aimed at an addressable market six times that of luxury sedans. He didn't mean the minivan market. If he's wrong and the notion that the Gravity is a minivan takes hold among a public largely (and absurdly) averse to minivans, he really landed in the wrong market for what the Gravity needs to do for Lucid.

You can say that the Gravity will set new standards for what a minivan can be and will change the public's mind, and the issue will evaporate. Well, the Air set new standards for what a luxury sports sedan could be . . . and its sales numbers have been a chronic disappointment.

What if the Gravity's market size includes all the overlapping capabilities of each? Station Wagons, Minivans, SUVs, 3-Row truck based SUVS that are all 80K+ and Crossovers/luxury sport SUVs...

 

[hmp10]

My apologies if it sounded that way, because it certainly wasn’t meant that way. In fact, it had nothing to do with you. It had to do with me and my personal experience with the vehicle.

No apology necessary. I'm sorry I get so exercised about this. It's really more about my frustration over American car buyers lack of appreciation for good engineering and according far more weight to styling, not to mention things such as equating gargantuan size with certain automotive capabilities of which size is actually the antithesis.

This whole syndrome was accurately (and depressingly) captured by David "The Autopian" Tracy, an engineer and car reviewer whom I respect -- and whom Lucid respects enough to have included in the first round of test drives.

After finding the Gravity to be "technically the greatest 3-row SUV ever" and gushing over its ride and driving dynamics and its space packaging, Tracy goes on to conclude that it might well flop in the American marketplace over the very styling reception under discussion on this thread.

The Lucid Gravity Is Technically The Greatest 3-Row SUV Ever, But I'm Worried It Will Flop - The Autopian

“HOLY CRAP! How is this even possible?!” I yelled as Lucid’s head of vehicle dynamics, David Lickfold, threw his company’s first-ever SUV around California’s canyon roads at a speed that seemed simply impossible. “OH my, is that oversteer?!” I screamed as he carefully placed the 3-row EV’s nose...

www.theautopian.com

I know this article is just one man's opinion, but it's an informed opinion taken seriously by someone like me who has lived long enough to see better technology and design falter time and again in the marketplace when a toy that looks shinier under dim lighting comes along.

It really raises a fundamental question about whether Lucid's dedication to advancing the state of automotive art even at the price of more crowd-pleasing design decisions is going to do it for them, at least in the American marketplace. We'll begin to know more about this when the Gravity goes up against the Escalade EV on the sales charts.

In line with @flarbear's insightful post, above, this is what many American buyers now equate with power, space, and luxury:

 

[msaunders9430]

EVs could be designed to resemble their gas powered intention-cousins, but maybe we need to evolve beyond our existing ICE-weaned preconceptions and learn a new design language?

I would say yes.

And that evolution involves reviewers (such as David "The Autopian" Tracy) along with perspective buyers.
This evolution along the market size that Gravity, with it's overlapping capabilities mentioned by @illopp00, potentially creates, makes me see Lucid as doing fine in the years ahead.
A shorter suv in the pipeline too?

 

[momo3605]

Does anyone have any experience with 3-row vehicles that have a 2nd row bench instead of captains chairs? Do you prefer it? Does it feel claustrophobic to sit in the 3rd row behind what is essentially a wall? And those with kids...is it easier or harder to get them in and seated in that scenario?

I'm contemplating how useful a Gravity would be with 2 tiny ones in car seats and then moving the seats around to get other adults in. One issue I foresee if you have a car seat in the second row, you will not be able to tilt it forward to get an adult in the back row. At least with captains chairs someone can walk through the middle.

Anyway, would love to get some opinions from other parents! Thanks!